city parks admin ban model rocketry, open to establishing guidelines,

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Congratulations. It looks like you have a path to launching.

Adherence to these conditions and a good record may allow you to work with them to expand the capabilities down the road.

Good work.
 
I suppose if the P.O.T.U.S. and the S.C.O.T.U.S. can mandate that citizens purchase health insurance or face penalties then the City of North Little Rock, Arkansas can mandate that citizens purchase a membership in the National Association of Rocketry (NAR). What a crock of bovine excrement!
 
left my comments on the other thread. mostly reasonable, but some points could stand to be worked on. :)

one more thing I just thougth of: why a limit on the number of rockets to launch on the permit? and do they mean "models" or "flights" ambiguity in contracts is bad. Is that limit on a per permit basis, or TBD (why is it blank?) Same question for the fees.
 
I suppose if the P.O.T.U.S. and the S.C.O.T.U.S. can mandate that citizens purchase health insurance or face penalties then the City of North Little Rock, Arkansas can mandate that citizens purchase a membership in the National Association of Rocketry (NAR). What a crock of bovine excrement!

I can kind of understand it for a group launch permit. Also, the requirement would be moot if the group requesting the launch permit were a NAR section (hint, hint - start a NAR section :) ) But for an individual permit? I really think that should be a point that is negotiated. The city may be requiring that so the launch activity is covered by the NAR insurance.
 
I am impressed and encouraged by the progress you've made! Well done!

Here in the county I live in NJ, I came to find out in a fashion similar to you that they had in fact banned rocketry in the county parks since 1982! That encounter started a dialog with the parks department, in my attempt to find a way to gain permission to fly small model rockets at a particular location in one park and at off times (like a weekday). The initial dialog was encouraging, but then a lawyer with the county or someone must have advised the director of the parks system because he quickly did a 180 from his receptive stance and didn't facilitate any further discussion. Armed with other locations to fly, I didn't waste my energy and gave up.

With different people now in power in that administration, I've thought of starting a dialog with the new director of parks. When my last encounter with the parks department on this topic ended, they sent me a copy of the county ordinances which might be applicable to banning my activity. In fact when you read them there should be a way with proper insurance to gain a permit to use the park. Perhaps without the same deaf ear turned my way I could get somewhere. I am following your adventure with great interest, because by arming them with information and an example of a usage policy framework that works, it might take some of the scary unknown away for them to the point of being receptive to the idea too.

Continued good luck to you! :)

Jim Z
 
I am impressed and encouraged by the progress you've made! Well done!

Here in the county I live in NJ, I came to find out in a fashion similar to you that they had in fact banned rocketry in the county parks since 1982! That encounter started a dialog with the parks department, in my attempt to find a way to gain permission to fly small model rockets at a particular location in one park and at off times (like a weekday). The initial dialog was encouraging, but then a lawyer with the county or someone must have advised the director of the parks system because he quickly did a 180 from his receptive stance and didn't facilitate any further discussion. Armed with other locations to fly, I didn't waste my energy and gave up.

With different people now in power in that administration, I've thought of starting a dialog with the new director of parks. When my last encounter with the parks department on this topic ended, they sent me a copy of the county ordinances which might be applicable to banning my activity. In fact when you read them there should be a way with proper insurance to gain a permit to use the park. Perhaps without the same deaf ear turned my way I could get somewhere. I am following your adventure with great interest, because by arming them with information and an example of a usage policy framework that works, it might take some of the scary unknown away for them to the point of being receptive to the idea too.

Continued good luck to you! :)

Jim Z

Might it not be helpful to point out along the way that our youth need something to think about besides jihad, punk everything, and video games? An appeal to our very real cultural need for inspiring and strengthening of our science and math classes K-12 and beyond is as evident now as it ever has been. I've been thinking about talking to local administrators about funding a beginner's program as long as the district provided the time and the territory. As I experienced while teaching, if even a couple of dozen students get interested--especially if their parents are professionals, it's unlikely I'd need to fund more than one year myself. The parents would organize.
 
I would try to steer them towards some kind of "shall issue" wording to be included so some nut down the road can't issue an internal department decree that everything is to be flatly denied with no cause or justification. I also understand that it is a soccer complex, but it should be first come, first served. Just because someone decides to schedule some practice or make up game at the last moment shouldn't mean that they can't make the soccer teams work around you.

I'd also try to get them to only have the fee for organized events. It is crazy that an individual would have to pay $10-20 (or whatever they come up with) to go shoot a couple of small rockets and go home. Unless their whole intent is to try to discourage people from launching rockets there in the first place. Or make the individual permit good for 3-6 months at a time.

Give them some information that D/E powered rockets don't necessarily fly any higher than ones powered by A-C motors and try to get that nonsense removed.
 
It is good to see that bkcoph1 is apparently making some progress with the authorities having jurisdiction. Perhaps it would advance his cause if he were able to arrange a demonstration launch on site with the interested parties in attendance? I seriously doubt that any of these interested parties have ever seen a model rocket in action, let alone lit the candle on one. Ignorance breeds fear and fear attracts lawyers. :wink:
 
Man, am I glad I live in a rural area, with a receptive landowner nearby...
 
The rules that NORTH LITTLE ROCK PARKS is proposing, limiting engine size and requiring a $50 annual fee, and each launch has to have approval.

Model Rockets in City Parks Policy
Effective Date: _________________
Last Date Revised:

Purpose

The purpose of this policy is to provide the guidelines, requirements, and permitting process for the
use, launch, and recovery of model rockets in city parks.
Applicability
This policy applies to any individual or group desiring to use, launch, and recover model rockets in
city parks.

Policy Statement

Only two areas of Quad 4 in the Burns Park Soccer Complex will be permitted for the use,
launching, and recovery of model rockets (see Map of Model Rocket Launch Sites). Use of any
other city park or areas in Burns Park will not be permitted. Soccer will remain a priority use in this
area, therefore scheduled launches may be cancelled to meet the needs of soccer participants.
Any individual (including immediate family members) using, launching, and recovering model
rockets in a city park must have a valid Model Rocket Authorization Permit and Model Rocket

Launch Permit.

Model Rocket Authorization Permits:
 Individuals, age 18 and over, may be issued a Model Rocket Authorization Permit subject
to the following minimum conditions:
o Submit a Model Rocket Authorization Permit Application
o Agree to certain guidelines and requirements, which will include, but not limited to:
 National Association of Rocketry Safety Code
 National Fire Protection Association Standard #1122 “Code for Model
Rocketry”
 Have current Liability Insurance and written proof of coverage
o Application review, evaluation, and written approval by Special Projects Division
staff
o Payment of a $50 fee
 Model Rocket Authorization Permits will be valid for one year from date of approval.
 Model Rocket Authorization Permits may be renewed upon reevaluation by the Special
Projects Division and payment of $50 fee.
Individual Launch Permits will be issued to Model Rocket Authorization Permit holders with the
following minimum conditions:
 Launch requests must be made in writing either by fax, mail, or email.
 Model rocket engine/motor size is limited to size “C” or smaller.
 Model rocket launches will only be permitted on weekdays (Monday - Friday) during
daylight hours and for specific times that are not in conflict with other park activities.
 A separate Permit must be requested for each launch date.
 There will be no charge for a Model Rocket Launch Permit.
 Permit holder should contact Field Reservations the day of their scheduled launch to
determine if there have been schedule changes.
 Understand the Department has the authority revoke or restrict an approved Individual
Launch Permit at its discretion. This may include, but is not limited to area rescheduled for
soccer, maintenance, burn ban, weather conditions, etc. without notice. The Department
will attempt to contact the Model Rocket Launch Permit holder prior to the scheduled
launch date.
 Follow guidelines and requirements agreed to in the Model Rocket Authorization Permit.
Group Launch Permits may be given to Model Rocket Authorization Permit holders through the
Department’s Special Event process. Model rocket engine size “G” or smaller may be permitted
for special events.
Any individual using, launching, and recovering model rockets in a city park without a valid Model
Rocket Authorization Permit and a valid Model Rocket Launch Permit may be cited under City of
North Little Rock Municipal Code Chapter 10 Section 4.1.4 (Unlawful use of Restricted Facilities)
or North Little Rock Municipal Code Chapter 10 Section 4.1.2 (Unlawful Entry or Presence in City
Parks) or North Little Rock Municipal Code Chapter 10 Section 3.1.3 (Facilities Reserved by
Purpose).
Any Model Rocket Authorization Permit holder not following the guidelines, codes, and/or
requirements outlined in the Authorization Permit may have their Authorization Permit revoked or
restricted with no refund.

Policy Elaboration

Model Rocket engine/motor size is limited due to the limited available space to safely use, launch,
and recover a model rocket without interfering with other park users, park activities, and private
property adjacent to the launch sites.

Definitions

Model Rocket - A small rocket usually made of paper, wood, plastic and other lightweight
materials, powered by an engine/motor and designed to reach low altitudes (usually to around
300-1500 feet) and recovered by a variety of means.
Launch Site - An area from which the model rocket is to be launched and recovered. The size of
the launch site is usually determined by the size of the rocket engine or motor and the estimated
maximum altitude the rocket will achieve.
Launch Pad - A small, flat area within the Launch Site from which a model rocket stand and blast
shield is placed.
Recovery Zone - An area in which the model rocket is most likely to land and be recovered. The
minimum size is determined by the size of the rocket engine or motor, the estimated maximum
altitude the rocket will achieve, and wind conditions.
Model Rocket Authorization Permit - A document verifying an individual has met and agreed to
follow certain guidelines and requirements and is eligible to request a Launch Permit.
Individual Launch Permit - A document verifying an Authorization Permit holder permission to use,
launch, and recover a model rocket(s) at a certain time and place. This document may be in the
form of a letter or email which must be on-hand while at the launch site.
Group Launch Permit - A document verifying a Model Rocket Authorization Permit holder
permission to use, launch, and recover model rockets during an approved special event. The
special event will require approval from other city departments and adjacent land owners.

Procedures

Model Rocket Authorization Permit applications may be obtained online at nlrpr.org, or in person at
the Parks and Recreation Administration office, or by mail by submitting a request via phone to
501-791-8540 or 501-812-5962 or via email to [email protected]. The application will be
reviewed by the Special Projects Division. Approval or denial notification will be given to the
applicant within thirty (30) business days of submitted application.
Individual Launch Permits may be obtained via written communication to
[email protected] or Field Reservations, North Little Rock Community Center, 2700
Willow Street, North Little Rock, AR 72114 or via fax to 501-791-8544. Approval or denial of
launch request will be given to the applicant via email or fax within three (3) business days of the
receipt of the request.
Group Launch Permits may be obtained by completing a Special Event Application which is
available by contacting the Special Events Team at [email protected] or 501-791-8541 or at
nlrpr.org. The applicant will need to indicate they hold a valid Model Rocket Authorization Permit.

Enforcement

Model Rocket Authorization Permits will be reviewed and approved through the Special Projects
Division.
Individual Launch Permits will be scheduled through the Field Reservationists.
Group Launch Permits will be scheduled through the Special Events Team.
Enforcement will be done by a North Little Rock Parks and Recreation Park Ranger.

Forms

Model Rocket Authorization Permit Application (attached with this policy)
Individual Launch Permit Request Form/Email (attached with this policy)
Special Event Application


Contacts

Policy Development:
Jeff Caplinger - 501-791-8540 - [email protected]
Ian Hope - 501-812-5962 - [email protected]
Related Documents / Policies
Map of Model Rocket Launch Sites
National Association of Rocketry Safety Code
National Fire Protection Association Standard #1122 “Code for Model Rocketry”

Background

In the past year, we have had a few individuals launching model rockets in the park (primarily at
the Burns Park Soccer Complex) without notification to park staff. They have been using parking
lots and grass fields as launch sites. Some of these rockets have engines big enough to launch
rockets several hundred feet into the air and land anywhere from the Arkansas River to another
soccer field to Mr. Pfeifer's private property adjacent to Burns Park. The city has neither specific
policy nor municipal code regarding model rockets.
In many areas the fire department handles
model rocket issues. After discussing this with the North Little Rock Fire Department, they are
allowing us to handle the model rocket issues on their behalf.

Revision History
Version 1.0
 
Control Issues:

they boil it down as:

In the past year, we have had a few individuals launching model rockets in the park (primarily at
the Burns Park Soccer Complex) without notification to park staff.
 
Can anyone make any recommendations?

Limiting to C size motors,
Requiring $50 tax
Requiring pre activity approval

So young families, that see the model rockets in WalMart, Michaels or Hobby Lobby or the local hobby shops like Marks Hobby Shop or the other national hobby store, not only have to pay money for the kit, motors, launcher, etc, but, also have to pay a tax of $50 to ask permission to use the park if the park is not being used for any other activities.
 
Can anyone make any recommendations?

Limiting to C size motors,
Requiring $50 tax
Requiring pre activity approval

So young families, that see the model rockets in WalMart, Michaels or Hobby Lobby or the local hobby shops like Marks Hobby Shop or the other national hobby store, not only have to pay money for the kit, motors, launcher, etc, but, also have to pay a tax of $50 to ask permission to use the park if the park is not being used for any other activities.

Other than locating a receptive landowner on a rural site that is not subject to these fascist control freaks, I think you are pretty well screwed. Any suggestion I might make will by necessity involve political discussion which is verboten on this forum. What these people propose is nothing more than a shakedown. If it were me I'd probably go to a city council meeting and tell them how much they suck, politely and with all due respect of course.
 
Other than locating a receptive landowner on a rural site that is not subject to these fascist control freaks, I think you are pretty well screwed. Any suggestion I might make will by necessity involve political discussion which is verboten on this forum. What these people propose is nothing more than a shakedown. If it were me I'd probably go to a city council meeting and tell them how much they suck, politely and with all due respect of course.

+1 I would tell them to stick it!
 
Send them a copy of this seeing they don't know how to write up a proper municipal code for use of model rockets.

Sec. 50-701. - Model rockets.

(a)

Definition of model rocket. A model rocket is a rocket that is propelled by a solid propellant or pressurized-liquid model rocket motor. It has structural parts made of paper, wood and breakable plastic; it has a means for its return to the ground so it can be flown again; and its primary use is for purposes of education, recreation and sporting competition.

(b)

Launch site requirements:

(1)

A model rocket shall be launched outdoors in a cleared area, free of tall trees, power lines, buildings and dry grass and brush.

(2)

The size of the launch site shall be no less than ½ of maximum altitude as stated by the manufacturer for the model rocket and motor(s) combination being flown.

(c)

Prohibited activities. The following activities shall be prohibited:

(1)

Launch of a model rocket in violation of the launch site requirements.

(2)

Use of a model rocket as a weapon against a target, or launch on a flight path aimed at a target.

(3)

Launch of a model rocket carrying a payload that is intended to be flammable, explosive or harmful to persons or property.

(4)

Except as expressly provide in this section, the manufacture, building, sale, possession, or launch of any model rocket, except in compliance with the provisions of chapters 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 1122 "Code for Model Rocketry," which is hereby adopted and incorporated by reference.

(d)

[Exception.] This section shall not apply to model or toy rockets propelled by pressurized-liquid rocket motors containing less than 250 ml (8.45 fl. oz.) of water.

(e)

Requirements for educational activities:

(1)

The launch site requirements contained in subsection (b) above shall not apply to any person officially participating in the "Rockets for Schools Program" at the lakefront on the date of said program.

(2)

The launch site size requirements contained in subsection (b)(2) shall not apply to persons participating in bona fide educational activities sponsored by a school or other generally recognized educational organization supervised by one or more adults. However, launches conducted as part of such an educational activity shall be launched only from the grounds of a school or park, and the rocket(s) launched shall not land in any location other than the property from which it was launched.
 
Can anyone make any recommendations?

Limiting to C size motors,
Requiring $50 tax
Requiring pre activity approval

So young families, that see the model rockets in WalMart, Michaels or Hobby Lobby or the local hobby shops like Marks Hobby Shop or the other national hobby store, not only have to pay money for the kit, motors, launcher, etc, but, also have to pay a tax of $50 to ask permission to use the park if the park is not being used for any other activities.
If you are going to try and negotiate any changes to this proposed policy, you'd do well to not play fast and loose with the English language.
They are clearly talking about a $50 fee. You are claiming it is a tax. This may be confusion on your part or an attempt to inflame the feelings of some readers of this forum. Either way, it is not accurate and you will not do yourself any favors by continuing to use your terminology.

One of the clubs I belong to has to submit an application for each launch we hold in a city park or city owned soccer fields. We have to pay a fee (much greater than $50) to use these areas. These are short hurdles to jump over to have a place to fly.

If you are concerned about families being harassed for flying without knowing about these rules, see if the retailers will let you post your club information at their locations so you can quickly build a club and spread the fee expenses around to those interested.
 
If I read this proposal correctly, each flyer has to pay a $50 yearly fee, and can not launch on weekends. So it would be very hard to bring in "New Flyers" at the field.
 
If you are going to try and negotiate any changes to this proposed policy, you'd do well to not play fast and loose with the English language.
They are clearly talking about a $50 fee. You are claiming it is a tax. This may be confusion on your part or an attempt to inflame the feelings of some readers of this forum. Either way, it is not accurate and you will not do yourself any favors by continuing to use your terminology.

Inflammatory speech intended. Your comment is appreciated. This fee is not intended to cover costs. The city parks are provided a very nice millage from a restaurant tax that was passed as one of 22 previous city tax increases.

No political discussion intended other than a frank reference to the state of the financing for the city parks as referencing the variation in use of the inflammatory term tax in the place of fee, which the city parks department advertise on the city parks website.

They state that persons were involved in a free and legal activity without their knowledge or permission.
 
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The city parks council is to meet Monday evening to discuss the proposed rules for model rocketry in city parks.
 
The city parks council is to meet Monday evening to discuss the proposed rules for model rocketry in city parks.

A friend on facebook noted: "Unless the rocketry requires a special use area or uses resources other than what other park goers use, then the tax is bull." He also stated: "They don't tax people who fly kites, throw fresbies, or ride bikes."

Which is true.

They also do not require special annual permitting, each time permitting, or other proposed rules previously mentioned, for the referenced kites, fresbies, or bikes (and some of the bikers have been known to nearly knock people over).
 
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Control Issues:

they boil it down as:

In the past year, we have had a few individuals launching model rockets in the park (primarily at
the Burns Park Soccer Complex) without notification to park staff.

If that is their primary issue, then keep them focused on that. I don't think it is unreasonable to notify them if a group event is taking place, and maybe even charging a token fee if it is a club launch, although their M-F restriction pretty much rules that out. It sounds like the adjacent property owner must have found a rocket on their land before (is that who owns the large area immediately to the west of the park?) and raised hell with the parks department, ala Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino.

If they do not charge a fee/tax for any other individual to participate in an activity at the park, then they've got no business doing so in this case unless they are going to start charging for everyone who wants to ride a bike, fly kites, R/C aircraft, etc., there. This "fee" goes far past covering their overhead to take care of issuing the permits and just reeks of them trying to just make anyone with a rocket go away.

As I mentioned before, the motor limitation is ridiculous. I understand them not wanting to permit HPR there, but not even permitting D motors excludes a lot of models, many of which won't even fly that high on a D.

I think at this point it may be time to stop dealing with the parks department and call up your council member and get them involved. Since the people on the parks board usually serve at the pleasure of the city government, if they get a couple of council members breathing down their throat about this it may be enough to make them shift their course towards a more reasonable accommodation.
 
Hi,
I'm coming in a little late to this discussion, and probably haven't fully assimilated every pertinent point, but my take on all these rules are that in some cases it seems like a step backwards.

Especially with all the legal mumbo/jumbo, I understand that the Parks people have "banned" model rocketry, but is there an actual *law* against model rocketry? From the sounds of the paragraph that

"Any individual using, launching, and recovering model rockets in a city park without a valid Model
Rocket Authorization Permit and a valid Model Rocket Launch Permit may be cited under City of
North Little Rock Municipal Code Chapter 10 Section 4.1.4 (Unlawful use of Restricted Facilities)"

etc., you would potentially be setting a precedent for that. (I can understand the bits about unlawful presence/entry etc. in the park, but this seems like it is equating model rocketry with an illegal activity).

My other concerns are that the rules seem somewhat onerous and almost impossible to follow, esp. if this Mr. Pfeiffer person is looking for ways to complain. Everybody using the field would have to hope/pray that they recovered their rocket within 2 hours, or that it didn't get blown by the wind onto this guys property, etc, and have to know to report it to the Park Ranger? (Your rules also make it sound is if launching a rocket somewhere else, but having it land on NLR property would be illegal without a permit).

Going about this a completely different way...would it be possible to start a club, in a school or with the Boy Scouts, etc., get some broader community support, stress the educational and growth opportunities, etc., and then go to the Parks Dept. as a broader group of citizens, with a recognized pro-societal group, and get better permitting, for your group at least? And then run monthly launches and work with local hobby shops to get kids/adult-kids steered toward your group, so nobody will get persecuted by the Parks & Rec Stasi?

Just a thought...keep us posted.
 
Or go to the local high school and ask permission to launch there, maybe even get the science teacher involved? Maybe the Parks & Rec personnel are being influenced strongly by the soccer teams. Ooops, too political, sorry, not my intent.
 
Or go to the local high school and ask permission to launch there, maybe even get the science teacher involved? Maybe the Parks & Rec personnel are being influenced strongly by the soccer teams. Ooops, too political, sorry, not my intent.

oh for cryin' out loud...it's OK to talk about the government as it affects rocketry!!!!
 
BK,

Based on what you say in your first post on this thread and the identical first post on the other thread with the same title, you started off with no capability to launch in the NLR parks.
You worked with the Parks/Rec people and they came back with the write-up you've copied here.
There is another meeting on the 17th to further discuss this.
As restrictive as their rules seem, it does offer something rather than the nothing you had when you started.
Whether it feels this way or not, you've made progress. You've got your foot in the door, the camel's nose is under the tent, whatever phrase you like.
Take whatever comes from the next meeting and work with that.
Follow their rules and show them what can be done. If you can actually get them to witness some launches, they may be able to understand how they can expand the rules to allow more for you and take care of all the other concerns they have to deal with.

Every few years, my club that has to pay rent to use a park in my city is asked to appear before the Park/Rec committee to discuss any issues that have come up either from the committee themselves or by citizens writing in to them. The committee knows us well and appreciates our efforts to keep complaints from abutting landowners to a minimum.

Without a starting point, you'll have no way to move forward. It sounds like you've at least got some way to do something. From there, you may be able to grow to more.
 
BK,

Based on what you say in your first post on this thread and the identical first post on the other thread with the same title, you started off with no capability to launch in the NLR parks.
<snip>
Every few years, my club that has to pay rent to use a park in my city is asked to appear before the Park/Rec committee to discuss any issues that have come up either from the committee themselves or by citizens writing in to them. The committee knows us well and appreciates our efforts to keep complaints from abutting landowners to a minimum.

Without a starting point, you'll have no way to move forward. It sounds like you've at least got some way to do something. From there, you may be able to grow to more.

I agree, there has been progress. I'm just wondering if the OP may get more leverage/more favorable (i.e., saner) rules if he was part of a group or organization than approaching as an individual (I don't remember if he is doing it as an individual or part of a club). You mention in your post that "the committee knows us well..." That certainly seems like an advantage!

Do boy scouts/girl scouts have a rocketry badge? If he could align with a group such as this (not necessarily the only way; could also work with school science teachers) then maybe he could sway more people towards seeing this as more of a benign, if not actually educational, hobby.

My concern is that when people hear "model rocketry" they think we are something akin to pyromaniacs...looking at some of the YouTube video's I have seen recently, I wouldn't blame people for having that attitude, but we don't want to get lumped into that category.
 
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