city parks admin ban model rocketry, open to establishing guidelines,

The City of North Little Rock, Arkansas, Parks and Recreation director has banned model rocketry from city parks. He is open to meet to discuss guidelines to model rocketry. I have the NAR safety code and the Tripoli Safety codes.

Has anyone worked with local US municipalities in establishing guidelines for model rocketry?

Arkansas does not have a NAR group or a Tripoli group. It was learned that most people from Central Arkansas use either the Tulsa or Memphis groups for model rocketry, but, that seems unreasonable.

Thank you,

You forgot the "Hi, I'm Brian" part :wink:

The TRF gang LOVES to know what you like to fly, build threads, etc. On the topic of state and local rules and guidelines, I am sure you will get lots of solid advice and suggestions from this group as this comes up quite often in discussions.

Hi, I'm Brian, and I've been addicted to model rocketry for 2 years........

Did something prompt the ban? Was there an incident of some sort? I think Layne Pemberton is in NLR, he would be a good one to get in touch with. I'll make him aware of this thread.

No known incidents, its unknown presently, seems to be a preconceived notion that model rocketry involves explosives and is dangerous.

Park Ranger rolls up during a 11:00am launch during a work day, and states it's now outlawed and that Parks Admin outlawed it.

they are open to meeting to discuss it. There has been a LOT of infomative communication on model rocketry safety and safety rules by rocketry groups.

Perhaps you can pin them down to commit to Class 1 rocketry...

Per the FAA anything smaller than 125g/3300g isnt big enough to warrant a waiver or direct oversight beyond the national clubs well established rules and procedures.

Kenny

thats the hope! if you google earth Burns Park in North Little Rock, there is a very large West Soccer Field complex that is empty during off times, but very busy on weekends with tournaments when the city park becomes a profit center for parking fee's and access, etc. The field complex is approx 1650ft N to S and 650ft E to W on the wide ends.

It lies near the Arkansas river, and is perfect in low winds.

bkcoph1 said:

No known incidents, its unknown presently, seems to be a preconceived notion that model rocketry involves explosives and is dangerous.

Park Ranger rolls up during a 11:00am launch during a work day, and states it's now outlawed and that Parks Admin outlawed it.

they are open to meeting to discuss it. There has been a LOT of infomative communication on model rocketry safety and safety rules by rocketry groups.

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Well Brian, sounds to me like you ought to take them up on their offer to meet and discuss. I can say with a high degree of certainty that the "I" word will come up and probably "R" and "P" as well; Insurance and Responsible Party. Municipal parks and rec is pretty big business ya know. All those youth soccer tournaments, company softball leagues, etc. pay for the privilege. Plano TX has a designated area where you can fly low power models with a permit. I can get you a picture of one. Send me an email (sambarone57 <at> gmail <dot> com) I might get some of the safety info available at the NAR (www.nar.org) and maybe contact those folks as well.

The FAA and NFPA guidelines all have language that gives the local AHJ - Authority Having Jurisdiction - (fire marshal, city council, county sheriff, etc) the final say.

KenRico said:

Perhaps you can pin them down to commit to Class 1 rocketry...

Per the FAA anything smaller than 125g/3300g isnt big enough to warrant a waiver or direct oversight beyond the national clubs well established rules and procedures.

Kenny

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125 g/1500g Perhaps you meant 3.3 lbs? :wink:

Check this site out and get a feel for how they have organized launches on park land. I have flown there and they seem to have it worked out with sharing the park with other interests. If it can be done in Los Angeles it can be done almost anywhere!!!!

https://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/

the Parks and Recs people say:

Parks and our fire department do consider model rockets generally safer than standard fireworks. The meeting tomorrow will be a get to know you, discuss the safety of the rockets, types of rockets and engines, launch sites, use areas, our concerns, conditions to use the park to launch rockets, etc. We will not have a definitive outcome at the end of the meeting, but a great start toward allowing rocket launches under certain conditions and you assisting us with development of those conditions.

There is a lot of information out there and a lot a variety of how other cities and parks and recreation department around the country handle model rocket use - anywhere from &#8220;No&#8221; to &#8220;get permits from both fire and parks department&#8221; to &#8220;this area only under limited conditions&#8221;, etc.

It sounds like a heavy desire to regulate regulate regulate, but, we will see. I wonder if, given all the information about Parks groups saying No, if there is a group out to ban rocketry from Parks altogether.

Last year we wanted to hold an LPR demonstration for a local center that works with challenged people where my wife works. I called around and found that the City Parks and Recreation Department banned model rockets at all our city parks. Someone at the challenged people center suggested I contact a former school building that stopped teaching students and became a museum and local community center. I asked them for permission and they said no problem. We held the model rocket demonstration there for the clients without incident.

Talk with them and present the positive side of rocketry. Bring NAR flyers, TARC flyers and other documents and references to support that this is a fun, safe hobby. Stress these aren't fireworks and that rocketeers routinely leave their flying fields cleaner than when they arrived. Good citizenship can go a long way toward bringing a reluctant official back into the fold. This of course assumes they aren't dead set against us already.

Thanks Tin Man

If you are a member of NAR or Tripoli you do have insurance coverage as long as you launch according to the safety rule. That can go a long way to easing their fears. Often it is a CYA maneuver to avoid lawsuits.

The city of Atlanta where I live bans all model aviation (RC, rockets, etc.) activity. It's a real bummer, but there are usually schools that are completely cool with letting people launch in their soccer/football fields. One of the local clubs here has gotten the good graces of a nearby grade school to conduct fairly regular launches and that seems to work out quite well.

RochonRockets said:

If you are a member of NAR or Tripoli you do have insurance coverage as long as you launch according to the safety rule. That can go a long way to easing their fears. Often it is a CYA maneuver to avoid lawsuits.

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As a property owner, you can't CYA to avoid lawsuits. Any attorney can file suit against anyone and a landowner has a non delegable duty and ultimate responsibility/liability for actions on their land. Word to the wise, just because you have insurance doesn't mean you can't be help personally liable for your acts. If a child took one in the head and sustained permanent injuries, an attorney could file an insurance claim against TRA/NAR then sue anyone they can for damages over the policy max.

I'm amazed that they can talk liability when you're talking about soccer fields. A comparative study would find thousands of injuries from playing soccer and ZERO for rocketry. The kids are in more danger from tripping on a sprinkler head chasing a drifting rocket than any rocket caused injury.

There's a difference in getting permission from administrators or educators and you don't have to guess which group is more favorable to rocketry. I got permission years ago from our local school district and have never had a problem flying off any school grounds. The district has a huge field 1/2 mile wide and a mile long. It was given to the school district for use as soccer fields. Well, the project is so huge that the money to develop it isn't there so it sits. Friday I'm going to pop a few up on A8-3's, check to see if the cops show up...the field is surrounded by up-scale housing and I'd just bet someone will make a call But I'm ready for them... I have history on my side

I don't know if it's been done in your state but many have codified NFPA 1122 covering the safe use of rockets. If your's has then a lot of your work has been done. It's basically the Rocketry Safety Code expanded.

tmacklin said:

125 g/1500g Perhaps you meant 3.3 lbs? :wink:

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You are both correct. No more than 125g of propellant and 1500 grams total rocket weight, which is 3.3 pounds.

RochonRockets said:

If you are a member of NAR or Tripoli you do have insurance coverage as long as you launch according to the safety rule.

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I believe TRA's insurance is only in effect at Tripoli sanctioned launches. NAR insurance is effective for any rocket activities that are within the safety code.

Kevin O

Nessalco said:

I believe TRA's insurance is only in effect at Tripoli sanctioned launches. NAR insurance is effective for any rocket activities that are within the safety code.

Kevin O

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Exactly, and you have to send to Tripoli the Certificate of Authorization or Waiver of launch the FAA or Transport Canada give to us and also the land owner permission to enforce the insurance

bkcoph1 said:

the Parks and Recs people say:

Parks and our fire department do consider model rockets generally safer than standard fireworks. The meeting tomorrow will be a get to know you, discuss the safety of the rockets, types of rockets and engines, launch sites, use areas, our concerns, conditions to use the park to launch rockets, etc. We will not have a definitive outcome at the end of the meeting, but a great start toward allowing rocket launches under certain conditions and you assisting us with development of those conditions..

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This sounds entirely reasonable and a very good opportunity to the meet these public officials face to face and state your case. Consider yourself a lobbyist for the Responsible Rocketeers of Little Rock. Democracy in action ! Be sure to wear a clean shirt, teeth brushed, hair combed; they want to get to know you.

bkcoph1 said:

There is a lot of information out there and a lot a variety of how other cities and parks and recreation department around the country handle model rocket use - anywhere from &#8220;No&#8221; to &#8220;get permits from both fire and parks department&#8221; to &#8220;this area only under limited conditions&#8221;, etc.

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Of course there is. You must remember, not everyone likes fire, smoke, and noise as much as we do.

bkcoph1 said:

It sounds like a heavy desire to regulate regulate regulate, but, we will see. I wonder if, given all the information about Parks groups saying No, if there is a group out to ban rocketry from Parks altogether.

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The International Parks and Rec Mafia ? Nah... I don't think so. Just the local bureaucrats protecting their million dollar grass and dirt.

Several years ago I made some inquires to a small number of municipalities regarding permissible activities in their public parks. When the "authority having jurisdiction" for the small, rural town of Celina, Texas responded, I received a long list of activities that were prohibited in their park system by city ordinance which specifically included model rocketry. The list was so extensive that I was tempted to inquire what, if any, activities were permitted.

The Fun Gestapo is everywhere. :no:

Thanks to all, given that my exposure to Model Rocketry has been building and launching a few rockets at the local park on an individual basis and absolutely no exposure to group rocketry activities. My fear is that I am not the best voice for Rocketry. My two years and 10 or so rockets from C through G (thanks to the local Hobby Lobby and their 40% discount, and a purchase from Hobbylinc.com) do not instill me as a wise ol voice for freedom and democracy of Model Rocketry. I have watched a bunch of videos, filmed many of my launches with thumb cams and or key faub cameras attached to the rockets, purchased a 1010 rail for launching, constructed a schedule 40 PVC launch platform, etc.

What got me into model rocketry was having a son and thinking what would be the cool things that a kid could grow up doing? of course there are the hiking, camping, and canoeing that Arkansas offers, but, Model Rocketry and Model Airplanes also seem like a fun time. It's understood that the two do not often get along with each other....... but, as an activity basis for a kid growing up......

Again, Thanks to all for the advise and recommendations,

Now if we can get our local Mega Park open to allowing rocketry, that would be fantastic.

We have that situation in Montgomery County, MD. The state and county allow modrocs, but the parks people require a permit...which they never grant. Years ago now, before I worried that much about such things, I was chased off by a park employee. He was very polite and I got the message.

I have never heard of any spectator being hit by a rocket in a local park, but I have been hit by a golf frisbee and beaned by a golf ball.

The head of the Parks Department in Plainfield, Indiana once informed me that it was illegal to fly model rockets in their parks, and this was passed into law by the city council. An extensive records search only found one law relevant to the situation. This one law forbids the use of FIREWORKS on park property, and specificly EXCLUDES model rocketry from the ban. When the department head was presented with the information, he informed me that he didn't care what the city council said. Because of this, I don't fly in Plainfield, IN.
On a side note, at least two of the councilmembers were VERY interested in what the department head said...............:grin:

Come to the meeting prepared to show how an organized launch is run. That will go a long way towards easing their concerns that it's just a bunch of guys shooting off fireworks. I'd be willing to bet that the $2M NAR insurance (which the city will be glad to know is a primary policy) will help a lot too.

If there's a Scout troop (or better yet, a Cub Scout pack) in the area, have them come too; model rocketry is part of the Space Exploration merit badge. So Cal is a difficult place in which to launch model rockets, but the ex police chief in our city used to be a Scoutmaster, so the Scouts get to use a local soccer field every year for a launch.

bkcoph1 said:

The City of North Little Rock, Arkansas, Parks and Recreation director has banned model rocketry from city parks. He is open to meet to discuss guidelines to model rocketry. I have the NAR safety code and the Tripoli Safety codes.

Has anyone worked with local US municipalities in establishing guidelines for model rocketry?

Arkansas does not have a NAR group or a Tripoli group. It was learned that most people from Central Arkansas use either the Tulsa or Memphis groups for model rocketry, but, that seems unreasonable.



Thank you,

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If your quest for a suitable launch site within the City of North Little Rock is denied, why not search the farmland in the unincorporated areas beyond their jurisdiction? I've found most farmers that I've approached to be receptive, even enthusiastic, especially once they've seen one fly. (Google Earth is your friend as are county tax records.) Bring a few rockets and some literature along and good hunting!

Their staff had been very active in research they came up with:

I requested no limitation on motor size above what is available on the shelves of the local retailers. No limit on D and below, but as with whats on the shelf at Hobby Lobby, etc as A -G (since I shoot a lot of E F and G).

Model Rocketry in North Little Rock City Parks

Individual Permits may be issued to individuals (age 18+) who must be a member in good standing and registered with National Association of Rocketry. Permit Applicant will be required to show proof of registration when submitting for permit. Permit will be valid for the applicant and their immediate family members and ability to launch up to ___ number of rockets.

Group Permits may be issued to a group organizer (age 25+) who must be a member in good standing and registered with National Association of Rocketry. Applicant will be required to show proof of registration when submitting for permit and may require submission of a Special Event Application. Permit valid for up to 10 group members and ability to launch up to ___ number of rockets. Group organizer will be the primary responsible party.

According to nar.org there are no registered clubs within the state of Arkansas.

No launches with wind speeds over 15 mph.

Vertical visibility shall be at least 2,000 feet at the launch site.

Horizontal launching angle shall not be less than 60°.

Rocket must be retrieved/recovered within 2 hours of each launch. If rocket is unable to be recovered, notice must be given to the DEPARTMENT.

Two Launch Sites will be available for use by permit only and will allow for a 500&#8217; diameter area with the center being&#8230;
Burns Park - Soccer Complex - North Site (Fields 15B and 16 and 17) - launch pad area located on southern end of concrete Cricket pitch
Burns Park - Soccer Complex - South Site (Fields 15A and 13 and 14) - launch pad area located in middle of concrete Cricket pitch

Permits will be issued by the Parks and Recreation Department on behalf of the North Little Rock Fire Department.

Launching of model rockets in Burns Park is a privilege not a right.

Launch sites are located within the Burns Park Soccer Complex. The primary use of the Burns Park Soccer Complex is soccer. If a permit is issued for a launch and then the soccer fields need to be reserved for soccer, then the launch permit will be revoked. In other words, soccer takes priority on these fields.

Launch Permits will be issued for specific daylight times and dates that are not in conflict with pre-scheduled activities.

Model Rockets will be limited to &#8220;B&#8221; or &#8220;C&#8221; size engines and smaller.

Permit holder must provide a 2A 10BC rated fire extinguisher for each launch site used.

Launch site and conditions must adhere to the National Fire Protection Association Standard #1122 &#8220;Code for Model Rocketry&#8221;.

Permit holder will be held responsible for any expense (repairs, clean-up, losses, rocket retrieval, etc.) incurred by the DEPARTMENT associated with the launch of the rocket(s).

Permit holder must supply a pad or blast deflector under the rocket to prevent damage to the area beneath the launch pad.

The DEPARTMENT may close the launch site areas without prior notice due to field conditions, maintenance needs, burn bans, or other reason. Permit holder should check the status of the field prior to use by calling 501-791-8656 (weather rainout number).

A fee will be collected for each permit in the amount $____. A damage/security/cleanup deposit in the amount of $____ will be collected for each permit and may be reused for subsequent permits if deposit could be returned to permit holder.

Launching rockets without a permit or with a permit, but at day/time/location not listed on the permit may be issued a citation under NLR Code Chapter 10 Section 4.1.4 (Unlawful use of Restricted Facilities) or NLR Code Chapter 10 Section 4.1.2 (Unlawful Entry or Presence in City Parks) or NLR Code Chapter 10 Section 3.1.3 (Facilities Reserved by Purpose).

Permit Holder will be responsible for ensuring the safety and controlling access (marking boundaries, barriers, signage, etc.) to the Launch Site.

Permit Holder understands that land to the west of each launch site is private property.