Certifications for Mid Power Rockets

I launched my first 24mm E engine rocket this month. Someone asked about certifications in a class I'm taking. When do you need to get certifications and how do you get certified? Here are a few pics from a couple launches... I would like to move on to F and G engines and would like to fly a GoPro cam or something a little better than the thumb drive cam i used in these pics. Any suggestions?

It's all technical crap, and many technically minded Folks will be along shortly to explain it to you in boringly technical Detail, but the general Gist of it is that you need to be certified if the Rocket you are going to fly weighs more than 53 Ounces with Motor/Motors, or the Mass of the Propellant in the Rocket is equal to more than 125 Grams.

So basically the biggest Rocket you could fly in Theory without Certification and a Waiver would be a Dual 29mm Cluster using 2 G80 Single Use Motors and weighing in loaded at 52.9oz.

You can fly F and G (up to 159.9 newton seconds) motors with no problem or certification. H and I motors (up to 640 Ns) require L1 certification, J,K,L require L2, and everything M and above requires L3.

You also need certification to fly any motor with an average thrust of 80N or higher.

See the NAR website for certification info. Some very helpful info at the Apogee Components site as well.

Welcome blc131. As has been mentioned, certification is not required to fly rockets under 3.3 pounds max liftoff weight and motors up to G class with up to 80 newtons average thrust (the number after the letter: E28, G77, etc). Your local hobby shop may have a selection of these available for purchase if you're 18 y.o. or older.

The two national hobby rocket organizations (NAR, Tripoli) use certification for higher impulse rockets (H class and above) to ensure the safety of flyer, spectators, and launch sites. This is a self regulating process available to members of these organizations. From a practical standpoint, vendors of high power motors wont sell them to you without proof of certification. Here are some links to the details:

https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-1-hpr-certification/

https://www.tripoli.org/Certifications/tabid/80/Default.aspx

I can't help you with the GoPro but a lot of folks here fly 808 keychain cameras. A search on this forum, youtube, and the wiggly wonderful webs will get you some info on them.

<edit> BTW nice pictures !

Another thing to note is that vendors will not sell you motors that require certification unless you are certified. So most likely, if you can buy it, you can fly it. But see the links above to be sure.

As stated above there's no need to get certified to fly F and G motors. There are plenty of projects that you can fly on those motors.

As for the video camera. I don't see a need for a GoPro. You can get pretty nice video out of a 808 #16 or Mobius camera (1080P 30FPS). They are both less than $100. I just bought a Mobius and I can't wait to fly it.

If you've flown an E motor, then you've just touched the bottom of mid power, and I bet you will find F and G motors plenty powerful for a little while before you will feel the need for a level 1 certification. Do you fly with a club, or on your own? Once you get into high power (H motors and above), you will most likely have to fly with a club in order to have all the proper waivers and adequate launch equipment. Even for F and G motors, you'll want to have better launch equipment than what you use for E motors, which you can acquire on your own or use a club's equipment.

What kind of E motors have you flown? If its an Estes E9 or E12 black powder motor, then the next step would be to try an Aerotech single-use E20 composite motor. That's a much more powerful composite motor, and it will work in a rocket that takes Estes E motors, like the one you probably already own. That will give you an idea of what composite motors are like.

After that, get a mid-power kit with a 29mm motor mount, like one of the Estes PSII builder kits, and you'll be able to use composite F and G motors. That should keep you busy for a little while before you need to get certified!

Good luck!

I'd agree with Chris that you might want to stick to less expensive cameras for awhile. There's always a chance of losing or crashing a rocket, and a GoPro might make that a pretty costly accident.

And speaking of losing rockets, I thought I should mention that there is now an F motor you can use in a rocket that takes Estes E motors, the EconoMax F44. I have not flown this motor myself, and I don't know what kind of rocket you are using or how it is constructed, so I can't say whether everything will hang together under that much thrust, or if your rocket might just disappear and never come back down. It's a small F motor in terms of total Newton seconds, but it burns really fast, so the average Newtons are high. It should make your rocket fly fast, like shot from a gun. Like I said, I'm not really recommending this motor for your rocket, but thought I would mention it as an option.

Thanks... this helps lots. I have only flown the Estes E9. Looking forward to trying the Aerotech engines now. Right now I am not with a club but I see that coming soon!

Is that an Estes Vagabond you are flying?

If you've only flown on E9 motors, then there is another motor you might want to try, the Estes E12. It will probably send the rocket to about the same height as the E9, but it will take off faster. The E20 will take off even faster than the E12, and it will go a lot higher too.


If you are using an Estes launch Controler, and you want to use the Aerotech E20, then be sure to buy some Estes Pro Series II Igniters or Starters. The Aerotech motors come with igniters, but they need 12 volts to light. The Estes controllers won't light them. So you would either need a different Controler or buy the long Estes igniters designed to be used with composite motors and will work with the Estes controllers.


That E20 motor is a lot of fun! That's the one that set me on the path to MPR and soon to be HPR.

ThirstyBarbarian, yes it is the Vagabond with the Estes controller and the E Series launch pad. We have been buying our engines at Hobby Lobby because we can get 40% with a coupond. However, they don't carry Aerotech. Where do you like buyihng engines at? I also just got the Ventris today. Its capable of flying a G80 Estes. Looking forward to flying it.

hmm, lets see; Apogee, hobbylinc(think that they only carry non-hazmat stuff), valuerockets. Wildman.... you only pay hazmat fees per box and according to Apogee, you can get about 6 motors per box, so it makes sense to buy more than one motor per order. usually I like to purchase from the on-site vendor when I can (club launches).
Rex

blc131 said:

ThirstyBarbarian, yes it is the Vagabond with the Estes controller and the E Series launch pad. We have been buying our engines at Hobby Lobby because we can get 40% with a coupond. However, they don't carry Aerotech. Where do you like buyihng engines at? I also just got the Ventris today. Its capable of flying a G80 Estes. Looking forward to flying it.

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I mostly buy from Hobbylinc. You can get the Aerotech 24mm E20 two-packs from them for your Vagabond. And you can also get the Aerotech 29mm EconoJet motors from them, which are small composite F motors that also come in 2-packs and don't require the extra hazmat fees. Those would work well in your Ventris and cost less than the Estes and Aerotech full-size F and G motors. They come with different propellant types that have interesting characteristics --- red flames, or white flames and smoke, or black smoke, or high speed.

If you are interested in full-size F motors or G motors, then you should shop around, and like Rex said, order enough motors to spread out the Hazmat fee. Hobbylinc does carry these too, but I'm not really sure who has the best deal.

I buy most of my motors from buyrocketmotors.com. Robert ships quickly and you know when you order if it is in stock. He runs his business in a very straight forward manner.

For me, there is the added benefit that he belongs to my club and I never pay shipping. One thing about it is that many F motors will be hazmat while many G motors are not.

Also, be aware that there are a couple G motors that are considered high power.


Kirk

1tree said:

I buy most of my motors from buyrocketmotors.com. Robert ships quickly and you know when you order if it is in stock. He runs his business in a very straight forward manner.

For me, there is the added benefit that he belongs to my club and I never pay shipping. One thing about it is that many F motors will be hazmat while many G motors are not.

Also, be aware that there are a couple G motors that are considered high power.


Kirk

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Welcome to the confusing snakepit we play in CTI, a motor manufacturer, has a F240 you need to be TRA or NAR certified to fly, too. Plus a few others , I think. I don't know if it's still this way but we used to be able to fly one particular AeroTech H load in a rocket that weighs less than a pound including motor. The H238 can really hump a rocket up, too I'll have to look into this.

This area is kind of a "boundary layer" that can be a bit confusing but what you can't figure out we can help with

If you buy Estes composite motors at Hobby Lobby, you are getting Aerotech motors. Aerotech manufactures the composite motors that are labeled for Estes. The difference between the two is that Aerotech includes an igniter with their motors and Estes does not.

dave carver said:

Welcome to the confusing snakepit we play in CTI, a motor manufacturer, has a F240 you need to be TRA or NAR certified to fly, too. Plus a few others , I think. I don't know if it's still this way but we used to be able to fly one particular AeroTech H load in a rocket that weighs less than a pound including motor. The H238 can really hump a rocket up, too I'll have to look into this.

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I think it really becomes a mess when you factor NFPA items in which might (or not) apply to your situation. From what I read, quite a few H loads are below the threshold for needing a waiver. (125 grams propellant, launch weight below 1500 grams, and impulse less than 40,960 Ns.)

Having said that, I doubt I will ever launch such apart from a club. And all the clubs I know of will only allow an H under waiver.

1tree said:

I think it really becomes a mess when you factor NFPA items in which might (or not) apply to your situation. From what I read, quite a few H loads are below the threshold for needing a waiver. (125 grams propellant, launch weight below 1500 grams, and impulse less than 40,960 Ns.)
.

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40,960 Ns, this is not the threshold to get a waiver, this is the upper limit of High Power rocketry Class 2 .

And that would make a lot of sense.

I really do wish that motor classes would stay within some better defined boundaries. Having some G motors considered high power while some H motors might technically not be is insane. And while some say the number after the letter has meaning, it seems more like some arbitrary number to me.

Handeman said:

If you buy Estes composite motors at Hobby Lobby, you are getting Aerotech motors. Aerotech manufactures the composite motors that are labeled for Estes. The difference between the two is that Aerotech includes an igniter with their motors and Estes does not.

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Hobby Lobby seems to have dropped the original Pro Series rockets and composite motors. Now they only sell the "E2X" and the BP motors.

This post caught my eye. I too think that F44 could be fun in a E rocket. Im going to try it out in my eliminator(original version). I flies great on an E20w. And I believe it could go a bit faster safely. Thinking about that F32t also

Thanks for the great input. I went with the Estes F15 for the Ventris first flight. I got daring and flew an old GoPro in the payload section of the capsule. Here are some shots.

Now if that don't trip your trigger, you need to be in a different forum!

Nice flight!