*RANT* Sparkies!

Onebadhawk
SilicdyneTRF
madcow rocketry
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Meatball 1 said:
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that sparky motors put out a shower of hot glowing metal pieces that aren't combusting at all? It seems to me that's why they're apt to start fires; they're super hot and impossible to prevent from hitting the ground using a blast deflector. The metal pieces don't "burn out" on their way to the ground; they have to cool off, and from videos, that appears to happen only after they hit the ground for the first several feet of flight. By design, it seems, sparky motors function such that a blast deflector only prevents the burning propellant exhaust from hitting the ground, but not the hot metal bits.

For the record, although I'm not a high power flier, my first group launch where high power rockets were flown was in 1991 (or maybe '92) at a Vikings launch near Richmond. There was an unannounced sparky-type motor flown on a large, dry field, and we all had to run out with extinguishers and stomp it out with our shoes. I was 14 at the time, and IIRC, there were several "old school" NAR members there, like Bob Biedron (who drove me), Terry Lee (who missed a flame and almost caught his pants on fire), and Doug Pratt (not sure if it was that launch or another that I saw Doug). Ah, the memories...
Click to expand...

Yes you are correct, I was writing without thinking. Thanks for pointing that out.

However, the point remains that the motors do a more thorough job of delivering localized heat sources to the ground.in such a way that they are more likely to start a fire.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
matthewdlaudato said:
We only allow sparkies here in the New England area (to my knowledge) at the Annual MMMSC Winter Solstice launch in Berwick, ME. It's a sod farm that is either snow covered or frozen at that point in the year. No one has yet succeeded to set the snow on fire. There is fire risk with even non-titanium infused motors on the grass fields that we fly on, so the sparky ban is common sense for us to keep in good standing with the locals. Now, if I had a dry lake bed and it was July...
Click to expand...

Matt:

Come to CATO and fly your F and G sparkies. Any month we'll do it as long as we can clear the ground. We haven't done high power, but we do have nomex down for all high power flights.

For everyone, you need https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0057ITQWI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 or it's equivalent. this is what you use for firefighing - not buckets. They put down a penetrating spray (that can be attenuated by a thumb for a soaking spray)
 
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cbrarick said:
Matt:

Come to CATO and fly your F and G sparkies. Any month we'll do it as long as we can clear the ground. We haven't done high power, but we do have nomex down for all high power flights.
Click to expand...

Learn something new every day as they say - I did not realize CATO did this.
 
"What the hell am I supozta do with all my sparky motors!"


I would tell ya just don't buy sparky's but I know your a big Loki fan and I would never tell someone not to buy a Loki!
 
Just flying rockets period..... is a privilege, not a right. You are born with certain rights, at least in the USA. Want to shoot a gun , you have the right.
Want to shoot a gun with tracer bullets, now you opened a can of worms depending on where you live. Want to shoot a gun with a suppressor, another can of worms.

Just shooting a gun has become a battle many places,because some folks are trying to take our Rights away.

Flying high power rockets:
You earn that privilege by following rules and regulations.

You must go along with the Certification programs that are in place to keep everyone SAFE.
You must go along with Club rules and Government rules to keep everyone involved SAFE.
This means fliers, landowners & the general nearby public. [who may or may not even be aware a launch is going on, but certainly would not be happy if a rocket came through the roof or you burned down their property.

Rights are taken away after much legal battling or wars. You can fight that in court or on the battlefield.

Privileges are taken away for not following rules or doing something blatantly stupid.
There is no second chance or jury of your peers.

Land owners give you the privilege of using their property .
Clubs allow you the privilege of flying rockets with them.

It's bad enough to be banned for breaking a trust or doing something blatantly stupid.

It's down right ludicrous if you cause a club loss of their field or landowner damage from fire,[or anything else for that matter] because you put the needs of the one, before the privileges of the many!

If the club or landowner feel conditions dictate not flying something...then that's that...done...finite!

There are hundreds & hundreds of different motors you can choose from, certainly ones world should not revolve around a sparky.


BE HAPPY! Follow rules. FLY SAFE. End of discussion.:smile:






PS there have been many instances where a rocketeer has spent untold sums of money, on projects taking months or years to finish.
Then driving thousands of miles to fly........being told NOPE! not this year, conditions forbid it!
Kinda makes not flying a spark motor trivial, doesn't it.

By the way it's called BALLS.
 
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wfcook said:
Yes you are correct, I was writing without thinking. Thanks for pointing that out.

However, the point remains that the motors do a more thorough job of delivering localized heat sources to the ground.in such a way that they are more likely to start a fire.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry if that sounded like I was just responding to you, Bill; I was intended to clarify the metal vs. combustion issue in the first sentence, then tie that into the larger discussion of why this issue shouldn't be taken lightly.

I commend those clubs and fliers who place adequate nomex blanket coverage in non-desert areas; it sounds like a very wise way of dealing with the problem by (more or less) making the blast deflector super-sized.
 
Meatball 1 said:
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that sparky motors put out a shower of hot glowing metal pieces that aren't combusting at all? It seems to me that's why they're apt to start fires; they're super hot and impossible to prevent from hitting the ground using a blast deflector. The metal pieces don't "burn out" on their way to the ground; they have to cool off, and from videos, that appears to happen only after they hit the ground for the first several feet of flight. By design, it seems, sparky motors function such that a blast deflector only prevents the burning propellant exhaust from hitting the ground, but not the hot metal bits.

For the record, although I'm not a high power flier, my first group launch where high power rockets were flown was in 1991 (or maybe '92) at a Vikings launch near Richmond. There was an unannounced sparky-type motor flown on a large, dry field, and we all had to run out with extinguishers and stomp it out with our shoes. I was 14 at the time, and IIRC, there were several "old school" NAR members there, like Bob Biedron (who drove me), Terry Lee (who missed a flame and almost caught his pants on fire), and Doug Pratt (not sure if it was that launch or another that I saw Doug). Ah, the memories...
Click to expand...
Actually you are 100% wrong. Titanium (and Aluminum and Magnesium) are active metals that actually burn and if you read the propulsion literature, are classified as fuels.

Titanium not only burns in oxygen, it also is one of the rare materials that actually burns in nitrogen. Titanium oxide, a ceramic, and the white pigment in most paints, is what you get when you burn titanium in oxygen, and titanium nitride, a hard ceramic used to coat cutting tools, is what you get when you burn titanium in nitrogen......Likewise aluminum burns in oxygen to form alumina, a ceramic, and magnesium burns with oxygen to make magnesium oxide. another ceramic.

Aluminum and magnesium particles in rocket motors are less than 149 microns in diameter so it usually burns out inside the motor, however titanium sponge or shavings can be up to 2 mm in size, so they take a few seconds to burn out, hence the shower of sparks you see falling from a sparky motor plume. Because they are more massive, the sparky particles have a much higher heat capacity and will stay hot for a much longer time than other metals used in hobby motors, and that's the reason why sparky motors have a proclivity to start fires.

NARAM-47 in 2005 in Cincinnati, OH had a several acre grass fire started by a sparky motor. The rocket left the pad at an angle and the plume impinged on high grass well outside the cleared area requiring the local fire department to put it out. As was mentioned previously, at least one TRA prefecture or NAR section per year lost the use of their launch site in the early 2000's due to sparky initiated grass fires. For this reason there are many clubs that are vigilant when it comes to allowing sparky motors at their home fields, because if they loose their high power field, they probably will go out of existence.

Bob
 
jmattingly13 said:
The next question you're going to have to ask is, with a significantly increased incidence of CATO's, should research motors be banned as a fire risk? The answer to which, I hope, is also no.
Click to expand...

We had two large commercial loads CATO spectacularly this weekend. Tons of EX motors, and no boom-boom.

bobkrech said:
Actually you are 100% wrong. Titanium (and Aluminum and Magnesium) are active metals that actually burn and if you read the propulsion literature, are classified as fuels.
Click to expand...

Glad you said it.


If you don't see sparkies as a fire risk.....I am baffled. There's really just no words to write.
 
"What the hell am I supozta do with all my sparky motors!"

Come out to Hartsel, Colorado, and fly with us :)

Here in Colorado, we are blessed with no fewer than five active rocket clubs. Some of the clubs permit sparky motors, others prohibit them. At Tripoli-Colorado's Hartsel launch site, we regularly fly sparky motors at most of our launches. The ground is short scrub, and it will not catch fire, even under the blast of an "N" skidmark (see photo). Of course, conditions vary from launch to launch depending on how much rainfall the site has received, so we always make the yes/no call for sparkies the day of the launch.

Dave

2014-06-22 - 021 - Spring Fling Day 2.JPG
 
I like sparkies and have flown a decent amount of them. I would never have an issue leaving one in the package though if the conditions warranted. Besides, a motor not burned today is a motor that can be burned another day. No big deal.
 
bobkrech said:
Actually you are 100% wrong. Titanium (and Aluminum and Magnesium) are active metals that actually burn and if you read the propulsion literature, are classified as fuels.

Titanium not only burns in oxygen, it also is one of the rare materials that actually burns in nitrogen. Titanium oxide, a ceramic, and the white pigment in most paints, is what you get when you burn titanium in oxygen, and titanium nitride, a hard ceramic used to coat cutting tools, is what you get when you burn titanium in nitrogen......Likewise aluminum burns in oxygen to form alumina, a ceramic, and magnesium burns with oxygen to make magnesium oxide. another ceramic.

Aluminum and magnesium particles in rocket motors are less than 149 microns in diameter so it usually burns out inside the motor, however titanium sponge or shavings can be up to 2 mm in size, so they take a few seconds to burn out, hence the shower of sparks you see falling from a sparky motor plume. Because they are more massive, the sparky particles have a much higher heat capacity and will stay hot for a much longer time than other metals used in hobby motors, and that's the reason why sparky motors have a proclivity to start fires.

NARAM-47 in 2005 in Cincinnati, OH had a several acre grass fire started by a sparky motor. The rocket left the pad at an angle and the plume impinged on high grass well outside the cleared area requiring the local fire department to put it out. As was mentioned previously, at least one TRA prefecture or NAR section per year lost the use of their launch site in the early 2000's due to sparky initiated grass fires. For this reason there are many clubs that are vigilant when it comes to allowing sparky motors at their home fields, because if they loose their high power field, they probably will go out of existence.

Bob
Click to expand...

Jeez, I managed to be wrong twice! If I had given much thought to it I would have realized that since I know that welding titanium has to be done with extreme care to avoid setting it alight. I seem to recall that the old soviet titanium-hulled submarines had to be welded in big, argon-filled buildings by guys wearing what amounted to spacesuits.

But I was still correct that all those large glowing particles, whether actually combusting or just hot as hell, are more likely to start fires than the products of normal motors.

That said, I occasionally fly them WHERE IT IS ALLOWED and I like them. But if they are disallowed I can't imagine being upset at the club for the rules they have to impose. the OP has to have an awfully strong sense of entitlement to think that way.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
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bobkrech said:
Actually you are 100% wrong. Titanium (and Aluminum and Magnesium) are active metals that actually burn and if you read the propulsion literature, are classified as fuels.
Click to expand...

Cool. Thanks for the better technical explanation. And I did attend NARAM-47 to enter Giant Sport Scale, but did not arrive until Wednesday, after the fire incident.

I do have a question, however: with particles up to 2mm in size, is there enough oxidizer present in the combustion reaction after they leave the in the nozzle to complete the reaction? Or do those larger particles only partially burn once they leave the oxidizer-rich environment of the combustion chamber?
 
So i love skids as much as the next guy, I have seem them start fire on the ground when fly off of pavement. an hot spark travels and lands of dry grass and there goes the grass. what we have done to avoid this.... 1) us fire proof blankets around the pads to help stop the spread of the sparks. and 2) only allow air starts or staging of skids. that way the model will be more than 50 feet from any flammable items, as the rule states.
 
blackjack2564 said:
Just flying rockets period..... is a privilege, not a right. You are born with certain rights, at least in the USA. Want to shoot a gun , you have the right.
Want to shoot a gun with tracer bullets, now you opened a can of worms depending on where you live. Want to shoot a gun with a suppressor, another can of worms.

Just shooting a gun has become a battle many places,because some folks are trying to take our Rights away.

Flying high power rockets:
You earn that privilege by following rules and regulations.

You must go along with the Certification programs that are in place to keep everyone SAFE.
You must go along with Club rules and Government rules to keep everyone involved SAFE.
This means fliers, landowners & the general nearby public. [who may or may not even be aware a launch is going on, but certainly would not be happy if a rocket came through the roof or you burned down their property.

Rights are taken away after much legal battling or wars. You can fight that in court or on the battlefield.

Privileges are taken away for not following rules or doing something blatantly stupid.
There is no second chance or jury of your peers.

Land owners give you the privilege of using their property .
Clubs allow you the privilege of flying rockets with them.

It's bad enough to be banned for breaking a trust or doing something blatantly stupid.

It's down right ludicrous if you cause a club loss of their field or landowner damage from fire,[or anything else for that matter] because you put the needs of the one, before the privileges of the many!

If the club or landowner feel conditions dictate not flying something...then that's that...done...finite!

There are hundreds & hundreds of different motors you can choose from, certainly ones world should not revolve around a sparky.


BE HAPPY! Follow rules. FLY SAFE. End of discussion.:smile:






PS there have been many instances where a rocketeer has spent untold sums of money, on projects taking months or years to finish.
Then driving thousands of miles to fly........being told NOPE! not this year, conditions forbid it!
Kinda makes not flying a spark motor trivial, doesn't it.

By the way it's called BALLS.
Click to expand...

Well said... this is the most sensible thing I've read in quite a while...

Kudos! OL JR :)
 
I was the first on-seen hand to help put out a fire that was started by a sparky. Because we had fire fighting equipment well placed and serviced, the small patch of fires were quickly contained and extinguished. However, I would say that it is not a common event to have occur by any stretch when we have a sparky launch.

The Tripoli club I fly with does have a simple rule in place regarding sparkies: If the county has a burn-ban in effect, they are not flown. Period. End of discussion. As CJ says, there are a ton of motor choices out there.

Greg
 
markkoelsch said:
I would say 5 times is about the number of times I helped stomp out a sparky fire. It could be 4 or 6, but that is an accurate range.

I think the noise is cool, and they look cool. If you are flying in the desert go for it. If you are flying off of a grass field or something similar I question your thinking. I choose to not fly them. I am not a fan of the potential for grass fires. You can question me further, but I think having flaming chunks of metal coming into contact with potentially flammable materials is not a great idea. Call me crazy if you want. I will fly other motors that do not shoot out flaming metal chunks by design.

Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
Click to expand...

Agreed, Our field, BLM land, high desert, scattered weed patches 5 to 10 feet apart, launch area is mostly clear of anything but lizards and ant hills. Record rain fall this year and the second someone says sparky they pull there hair out and run around in circles and scream FIRE! The same hysteria displayed here.

troj said:
Every month, before calling the FAA, I first make a call to our landowner to get a read on how he feels about the fire risk.

He's never asked us to cancel a launch, but I've cancelled them based purely on how he reacts when I ask him what the conditions are.

The land belongs to him, not us, and we have an obligation to show courtesy in when and how we use it.

-Kevin
Click to expand...


As well you should, not sure how this argument was turned into we don't have permission to launch sparkies by the land owner because its not the case.


luke strawwalker said:
I don't "hate" HPR... I just have seen a large enough amount of exceedingly poor judgment exercised by practitioners of it to give me a VERY long moment of pause and decide that its not worth the potential risks, and not to host it on our property. These sorts of threads really reinforce that belief due to the attitudes demonstrated, like yours...

Best of luck. OL JR :)
Click to expand...

Once again you missed the point and chalk it up to bad attitude or poor judgement when someone doesn't see it your way. Maybe I missed something your posted, I do tend glaze over any time I attempt to finish reading one of your posts. But it sounded like to me it was the neighboring field that pitched the fit and got them kicked off the field, that's who I meant by I bet they wouldn't have given a crap how, what or why the rocket geeks burned their field down the end result was the same.

blackjack2564 said:
Just flying rockets period..... is a privilege, not a right. You are born with certain rights, at least in the USA. Want to shoot a gun , you have the right.
Want to shoot a gun with tracer bullets, now you opened a can of worms depending on where you live. Want to shoot a gun with a suppressor, another can of worms.

Just shooting a gun has become a battle many places,because some folks are trying to take our Rights away.

Flying high power rockets:
You earn that privilege by following rules and regulations.

You must go along with the Certification programs that are in place to keep everyone SAFE.
You must go along with Club rules and Government rules to keep everyone involved SAFE.
This means fliers, landowners & the general nearby public. [who may or may not even be aware a launch is going on, but certainly would not be happy if a rocket came through the roof or you burned down their property.

Rights are taken away after much legal battling or wars. You can fight that in court or on the battlefield.

Privileges are taken away for not following rules or doing something blatantly stupid.
There is no second chance or jury of your peers.

Land owners give you the privilege of using their property .
Clubs allow you the privilege of flying rockets with them.

It's bad enough to be banned for breaking a trust or doing something blatantly stupid.

It's down right ludicrous if you cause a club loss of their field or landowner damage from fire,[or anything else for that matter] because you put the needs of the one, before the privileges of the many!

If the club or landowner feel conditions dictate not flying something...then that's that...done...finite!

There are hundreds & hundreds of different motors you can choose from, certainly ones world should not revolve around a sparky.


BE HAPPY! Follow rules. FLY SAFE. End of discussion.:smile:
Click to expand...

My world doesn't revolve around the sparky but I would like to fly one from time to time.

I have never stated that land owners wishes should be ignored or if its dry not to cancel the launch, I maintain if its to dry to launch a sparky then its to dry to launch anything. Most these responses sound like they are launching from a dry tinder patch soaked in gasoline and ONLY the sprakies are causing the fires.

That's is what I have a problem with, now when anyone hears the word its an automatic fire! I doubt most of them have actually seen it happen.

If your conditions are that bad that a momentary shower of sparks is going to start a wild fire and the end result will be forfeiture of your land use then I guess you are right you should ban the sparky but when your motor CATOs and does the same dang thing, well that's OK its and acceptable part of the risk?

I yield, I have said my piece, offended fellow rocketeers and got my 25 posts for this moths give away. So I will drop it, my rant is over I feel malice towards none and beg forgiveness for my blanket statement of LIES! Took my licks and learned a few things now its time to move on.

Peace i'm out you guys can have the last word.


TA
 
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It's a matter of degrees, and in the absence of an accumulation of reliable data, I think it could be said that any launch poses a finite fire risk, and sparkies - when used under sound judgement of the flyer and RSO - probably don't make that risk so significantly greater.

We launch rockets in part because we like to see them go up. And the "effect" from sparkies is one way to enhance that enjoyment, just like using bigger, smokier, or louder motors are other ways. Since there's an inherent risk in all of it, rallying against any one aspect isn't really justified unless there is a body of evidence that it is causing, or could cause damage to people, property, or the hobby in excess of anything else that is accepted.
 
First off you have not offended me in any way,shape or form. You have the right to say what you think. I respect that.

...................................................................................................................................................................................

"If your conditions are that bad that a momentary shower of sparks is going to start a wild fire and the end result will be forfeiture of your land use then I guess you are right you should ban the sparky but when your motor CATOs and does the same dang thing, well that's OK its and acceptable part of the risk?"

................................................................................................................................................................................
I have flown and seen fires caused by sparkies at ThunderStruck [Indiana]...Red Glare [Maryland]...... Bong [Wisconsin]....MWP [Illinois]....... LDRS [New York]......Orangeburg [South Carolina]. SpacePort....Florida. I have been the cause of 2. Every where I mentioned had good fire control that worked or at least saved any serious loss.
There were 2 fires that burned 17 acres & 3-4 acres. These were brought under control by local fire fighters or farmers tractors, that were aware of launches going on & no fields were lost due to them.

The difference is this:

When flying a spark, you KNOW there is a higher chance of a fire starting than a standard motor, & you take that risk anyhow. Past experience has shown it time after time. Many clubs allow it, if conditions dictate & are prepared for it. When conditions get bad... the ban is on.

You are taking a known risk & the results are your own.

When flying and a CATO happens, it is not under your control.
It's happened due to a malfunction of some sort, for which you cannot be held accountable.

If you drive a car knowing the brakes are bad, an accident is your total responsibility .
If you drive a car and the brakes go out, it's an unknown and not your fault.

.......................................................................................................................................

"I yield, I have said my piece, offended fellow rocketeers and got my 25 posts for this moths give away. So I will drop it, my rant is over I feel malice towards none and beg forgiveness for my blanket statement of LIES! Took my licks and learned a few things now its time to move on.

Peace i'm out you guys can have the last word."
................................................................................................................................

If the intention of this was to get your 25 posts...so be it. My hats off to you, it was a good scam! :grin:

I was just trying to bring reason into the discussion that was filled with emotion & hold no malice what so ever.

Semper Fly.

CJ
 
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Seems to me it is up to the clubs to self manage, or lose privileages to launch sites etc. Launch sites are few and far between, just ask any club who has lost a site, and have exhausted efforts trying to secure a new site...

I like to watch other people fly sparkies, as it is a nice "special effect" for a rocket flight, a real crowd pleaser. But I have seen what it can do to hardware (nozzle erosion etc), and therefore never invested or flown any for myself. As for the ban(s) on sparkies at launches... We launch from a sod farm as well, and although we have not burned the grass up, we have killed some off with sparkies, and large rockets launched closer to the ground. I have not been to a launch in a while, but last I remember, sparkies were allowed on a case by case basis.

The worst grass fire I was ever affected by at a launch, actually came from a HyperTEK flight (non HFX grain)... it took a long time to stamp that fire. The very next meeting, we voted unanimously to purchase more fire prevention devices (flappers extinguishers etc).
 
Meatball 1 said:
Cool. Thanks for the better technical explanation. And I did attend NARAM-47 to enter Giant Sport Scale, but did not arrive until Wednesday, after the fire incident.

I do have a question, however: with particles up to 2mm in size, is there enough oxidizer present in the combustion reaction after they leave the in the nozzle to complete the reaction? Or do those larger particles only partially burn once they leave the oxidizer-rich environment of the combustion chamber?
Click to expand...
Finely powdered metals burn rapidly or explode in air. They do not have to be inside a rocket motor to burn! That's how thermobaric warheads work.

It's also the reason why you do not mix dry metals with oxidizers when you mix propellant as a static discharge will cause the mixture to explode.

I don't have a dislike for sparkies, but the average user doesn't appreciate the real hazard of using them in dry situations. If you club is going to allow them then you need to have a fire team that is trained to extinguish grass fires quickly without water. Our club has 10 member who have be trained to put out grass fires quickly. We have fiberglass welding blankets to cover and smother a small fire, 4 fire brooms and a fire rake to handle a larger grass fire and (3) 5-gallon Indian fire extinguishers to cool hot spots after the fire has been extinguished.

Bob
 
bobkrech said:
Finely powdered metals burn rapidly or explode in air. They do not have to be inside a rocket motor to burn! That's how thermobaric warheads work.
Click to expand...

But does a metal particle 2mm across count as "finely powdered"? That seems kind of large to me and makes me wonder if perhaps larger particles would not burn completely after exiting the nozzle. Just curious, really. Obviously it doesn't change the grass fire issue.
 
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bobkrech said:
Finely powdered metals burn rapidly or explode in air. They do not have to be inside a rocket motor to burn! That's how thermobaric warheads work.

It's also the reason why you do not mix dry metals with oxidizers when you mix propellant as a static discharge will cause the mixture to explode.

I don't have a dislike for sparkies, but the average user doesn't appreciate the real hazard of using them in dry situations. If you club is going to allow them then you need to have a fire team that is trained to extinguish grass fires quickly without water. Our club has 10 member who have be trained to put out grass fires quickly. We have fiberglass welding blankets to cover and smother a small fire, 4 fire brooms and a fire rake to handle a larger grass fire and (3) 5-gallon Indian fire extinguishers to cool hot spots after the fire has been extinguished.

Bob
Click to expand...

And we don't allow sparkies!
 
Meatball 1 said:
But does a metal particle 2mm across count as "finely powdered"? That seems kind of large to me and makes me wonder if perhaps larger particles would not burn completely after exiting the nozzle. Just curious, really. Obviously it doesn't change the grass fire issue.
Click to expand...

Well, finely powdered is somewhat of a subjective term and IMHO it can mean different things to different people. To me, the term means 320 mesh or smaller in size.

Also, there is nothing in NFPA 1127-2013 regarding propellant formulations that I have seen. The only thing NFPA requires regarding sparkies is:

4.15.2 For a high power rocket using a motor(s) with titanium
sponge, the minimum clear distance shall be multiplied
by a factor of 1.5, and the area shall be cleared of all combustible
material.
Click to expand...

Greg
 
grouch said:
I like sparkies and have flown a decent amount of them. I would never have an issue leaving one in the package though if the conditions warranted. Besides, a motor not burned today is a motor that can be burned another day. No big deal.
Click to expand...

+1
I have a couple of sparky motors that I haven't been able to fly because the field I've done most of my flying on was peat soil. No problem - if I know I'll be flying on a field in the future that supports it, I'll launch them then...

Eldred
 
DRAGON64 said:
Seems to me it is up to the clubs to self manage, or lose privileages to launch sites etc. Launch sites are few and far between, just ask any club who has lost a site, and have exhausted efforts trying to secure a new site...

Oh, MAN...one of our local clubs just lost their site(it was sold), and I don't see another site being acquired anytime soon... :-(

I like to watch other people fly sparkies, as it is a nice "special effect" for a rocket flight, a real crowd pleaser. But I have seen what it can do to hardware (nozzle erosion etc), and therefore never invested or flown any for myself.
Click to expand...
Fly CTI sparkies - you won't have to worry about nozzle erosion. :)

Eldred
 
bobkrech said:
Finely powdered metals burn rapidly or explode in air. They do not have to be inside a rocket motor to burn! That's how thermobaric warheads work.

It's also the reason why you do not mix dry metals with oxidizers when you mix propellant as a static discharge will cause the mixture to explode.

I don't have a dislike for sparkies, but the average user doesn't appreciate the real hazard of using them in dry situations. If you club is going to allow them then you need to have a fire team that is trained to extinguish grass fires quickly without water. Our club has 10 member who have be trained to put out grass fires quickly. We have fiberglass welding blankets to cover and smother a small fire, 4 fire brooms and a fire rake to handle a larger grass fire and (3) 5-gallon Indian fire extinguishers to cool hot spots after the fire has been extinguished.

Bob
Click to expand...

Where did you guys get that training, the local FD? It sounds like a great idea that couldn't hurt...

Eldred
 
I can sympathize with the OP if he is being told, without warrant, not to fly sparkies because they "might" cause a fire. I wonder if the club has stats on how many fires have been started by sparkies. If they can point to stats and say that they see sparkies causing fires X% of the time, and that that is an unnecessary risk, then kudos to them. But if they have simply banned sparkies out of fear without having conducted any research, then that is foolish, IMO.
 
epickett said:
Where did you guys get that training, the local FD? It sounds like a great idea that couldn't hurt...

Eldred
Click to expand...
One of our members is a volunteer firefighter in New Hampshire with training in grass, brush and forest fires. He conducts classes every three years for interested members. While we check with the local fire chiefs before launches at our different fields and have a good relationship with them, we decided we don't want them involved in our training. We've never had to call them to the field for anything that "got away from us" and we'd like to stay as far under their radar as possible.

Bat-mite said:
I can sympathize with the OP if he is being told, without warrant, not to fly sparkies because they "might" cause a fire. I wonder if the club has stats on how many fires have been started by sparkies. If they can point to stats and say that they see sparkies causing fires X% of the time, and that that is an unnecessary risk, then kudos to them. But if they have simply banned sparkies out of fear without having conducted any research, then that is foolish, IMO.
Click to expand...
I doubt you could generate a statistically significant sample for such a purpose. Following the clearance rules and using common sense should provide you with 0% fires started by sparkies. I don't see anyone volunteering their field to check the results of launching without clearance or in very dry conditions. I've tried to stay out of this discussion but I was at a demonstration launch at an airshow this year where sparkies started a grass fire. Originally, the launch was to take place from the airport runway; a good setting for sparkies. Then we were told to set up on the grass just off the runway. We should have changed to smoky or colorful flame motors but the motor supplier was fixated on sparkies. There were welding blankets on the ground around the pads but we probably didn't have the total cleared area we should have had. The H-impulse motor went off without and issue but the J-impulse got the grass smoldering. Our crew went at it with our backpack pumps and the local fire department saw their only action of the weekend. Sparkies don't always start fires but, logically, they are more likely to for any given condition.

The clubs I fly with ban the use of sparkies out of hand except for specific winter launches on snow covered fields or iced over ponds. It has not had any effect on the fun and enjoyment people have flying with us or watching us. No one who has attended our launches and know of the ban have called us "foolish".
 
GregGleason said:
Well, finely powdered is somewhat of a subjective term and IMHO it can mean different things to different people. To me, the term means 320 mesh or smaller in size.

Also, there is nothing in NFPA 1127-2013 regarding propellant formulations that I have seen. The only thing NFPA requires regarding sparkies is:



Greg
Click to expand...
That's because it's in 1125-2012 which specifies the manufacturing requirements.

7.7.5 Metal particles in a propellant shall not exceed 150 microns (100 mesh) with the exception of titanium sponge.

7.7.6 Titanium sponge particles shall not exceed 2380 microns (8 mesh).

7.7.7 Titanium Sponge content shall not exceed 12 weight percent in a propellant.

Bob
 

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