*RANT* Sparkies!

Thanks Bob.

BTW, my NFPA 1125-2012 edition reads a bit differently:

7.7.5 The propellant of a high power rocket motor shall contain
no metal particles larger than 150 microns (100 mesh),
except for titanium (Ti) sponge.
7.7.5.1 No Ti sponge particles larger than 2380 microns
(8 mesh) shall be used.
7.7.5.2 No more than 12 percent by weight of Ti sponge shall
be used.

Click to expand...

I wonder if there are different versions.

Greg

PS/FYI for those interested:

100 microns = 0.1 mm ~ 0.0059"
2380 microns = 2.38 mm ~ 0.0937"

Bat-mite said:

I can sympathize with the OP if he is being told, without warrant, not to fly sparkies because they "might" cause a fire. I wonder if the club has stats on how many fires have been started by sparkies. If they can point to stats and say that they see sparkies causing fires X% of the time, and that that is an unnecessary risk, then kudos to them. But if they have simply banned sparkies out of fear without having conducted any research, then that is foolish, IMO.

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Cool.

I'm foolish.

I'm okay with that.

I really don't care what the percentages are; we're not going to risk a 100% preventable fire on our landowner's property. I've seen them happen at other sites; I don't need to see one happen at ours.

-Kevin

Tin Man said:

Especially when you don't follow the safety code!!! NAR required a minimum of 50' cleared area for an H motor. You picture clearly shows that rule wasn't followed, for any motor, let alone a sparkie.. Sarkies are a great alternative for those of us who are having fun and aren't afraid to try something different.

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Since you refer to NAR rules, here something that show that even the NAR find the sparky more fire hazard than others motors;

"I will ensure that dry grass is cleared around each launch pad in accordance with the accompanying Minimum Distance table, and will increase this distance by a factor of 1.5 and clear that area of all combustible material if the rocket motor being launched uses titanium sponge in the propellant. "

And by the way Green grass is not dry grass, dry grass is usually yellowish, dead. Green grass is alive, so NAR rules was fallowed. ( nice try )

But if they have simply banned sparkies out of fear without having conducted any research, then that is foolish, IMO

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Just to add one more thought about the logic or "foolishness" of proving the danger/risk-of-fire of Sparky motors before banning them... (I apologize if someone's mentioned this and I missed it):

The burden of proof for safety (in this case risk of fire) should always be to prove that the something in question is reasonably safe before allowing it. The burden of proof should absolutely *not* be on proving something to be dangerous before banning it. That sort of reversal of the burden of proof is exactly what happened among the decision makers leading up to the Shuttle Challenger accident; for the first time ever, the Morton Thiokol engineering team, having voiced concerns over SRM joint functionality at cold temperatures, were required to prove to the higher-ups that the SRM would definitely fail under such conditions rather than prove that it would be safe (which, of course, they could not do).

Even though we're discussing something more trivial than a Shuttle flight, I think this type of logical approach still applies. If something is disconcerting from a safety standpoint and there isn't proof one way or the other regarding risk, banning the thing until proof can be obtained is a perfectly reasonable and wise (non-foolish!) thing to do from an engineering/safety standpoint.

Area66 said:

Since you refer to NAR rules, here something that show that even the NAR find the sparky more fire hazard than others motors;

"I will ensure that dry grass is cleared around each launch pad in accordance with the accompanying Minimum Distance table, and will increase this distance by a factor of 1.5 and clear that area of all combustible material if the rocket motor being launched uses titanium sponge in the propellant. "

And by the way Green grass is not dry grass, dry grass is usually yellowish, dead. Green grass is alive, so NAR rules was fallowed. ( nice try )

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"...and clear that area of all combustible material if the rocket motor being launched uses titanium sponge in the propellant."

Clearly if the area within the cleared area catches on fire, something combustible is there.

jmattingly13 said:

"...and clear that area of all combustible material if the rocket motor being launched uses titanium sponge in the propellant."

Clearly if the area within the cleared area catches on fire, something combustible is there.

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I do not believe that the safety code is intended to require that ALL material that is capable of burning under any circumstances be removed from the area. Otherwise, we would have to remove insects, worms, dirt...Just about anything in nature will burn if you get it hot enough. The term 'combustible' is defined in some dictionaries as "able to catch fire and burn easily." I would not put lush green grass in that category.

What is the era required to be cleared? How big of a diameter?

I'm sure there is no doubt in anybodies minds that have posted here that sparkys are more prone to start a fire. That being said, I've seen sparkys and low power BP motors start several fires at the same venue, same day, at a regional launch in a field with corn stubble. Rather than banning the sparkys they let them fly as the hosting club had the fire suppression equipment needed and all fires were quickly put out. With those conditions at our home field which we have some years we refrain from using sparkys until the field is plowed, as we don't have that type of equipment.

Other people have posted here witnessing sparkys starting fires but did not elaborate. Small quickly controlled fires I consider irrelevant. What I have seen is irrelevant. Clubs are supposed to have some fire suppression items at all launches. To me any fire started at a launch area whether by a sparky or any other motor or mishap that gets out of control is an area that a launch should not have been conducted in at that time in the first place. To me if a sparky can possibly cause a massive fire when used, I for one would not be launching anything in that area.

cwbullet said:

What is the era required to be cleared? How big of a diameter?

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Cleared area chart:


PDF of whole safe distance chart in case you need a full copy for your records Chuck.

View attachment OPSC-2012-Oct.pdf

{I'm debating just how far I want to get involved in this (because you probably don't want me to get *too* involved)... however...}

thobin said:

...I just don't see the difference in risk between the potential CATO and the potential fire risk of a sparky.

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Maybe until you do, you might refrain from flying sparkies - so that you can appreciate and more accurately assess the risks you talk of. (Hint: the 'difference' here is the fact that the very nature of CORRECT functioning of a rocket motor is not, in and of itself, a fire risk (beyond the normal fire protection measures normally practiced) - only when we have an anomalous event (i.e. CATO) does that fire risk become elevated. In contrast, it is precisely the nature of CORRECT functioning of a sparky that CREATES the risk. IOW, that risk is created by 100% of the sparky motor flights - on *every* *single* *flight* one is aware that one is entering a situation of elevated fire risk BEFORE the launch button is pressed.)

thobin said:

In my own little world have yet to see one start a fire.

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It's good we've qualified the 'experience base' here.

luke strawwalker said:

YOU have to prove it's safe to get THEIR approval...

NOBODY has to prove to YOU that it's unsafe so you don't throw a tantrum...

Later! OL JR

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Maybe we should ban sparkies until their (documented) safety record falls BELOW the percentage of CATOs of ALL motors (since that is how he wants to compare things --> %fires related to sparkies <= %CATOs of ALL rocket motors flown) -- and, yes, we can use historical data - inclusive.

A lot of the problems associated with 'sparkies' rests with the decision to fly them in the first place (because there's been an absolute horrific lack of discipline involved here - witness Wayside).

Or, in the inestimable wisdom of Capt. Jack Sparrow: "The 'problem' is not the problem. The problem is your *attitude* about the problem."

Once you press the launch button - you have to LIVE with the results until everything is 'out' and back on the ground - and there is no longer '10 seconds' in all eternity than an airborne rocket that is not functioning correctly.

==========

Thobin, before I wade any further into this morass, I'd like you to answer three questions for me (us):

1) How old are you?

2) Have you ever been in the position of (prime) responsibility for a launch site (i.e. the main one responsible to the landowner)?

2a) If you have (now or in the past), how long?

3) Do you own (or have you ever owned) the property you fly from (including all potential landing areas)? What is the nature of your relationship with the surrounding landowners?

(OK, some may say that's more than three -- but I'm in hopes we don't have to descend that deep into adolescent thinking).

-- john.

This whole debate has got me thinking... Here's my two cents: I'll fly or not fly whatever the club wants me to. It's their launch. If I'm a part of the club, then I'll weigh in with my opinion but accept the group's decision because that's the purpose of a club...
In the meantime, I'm holding on to my I180 Skidmark until I can launch it safely on a badass rocket.

Hehe, I can absolutely assure you that you will not set any of our primary HPR fields on fire, with any size of sparky motor you can come up with. If you do manage to catch our field on fire, I think I will be concerned about a great many other things than the fire you just started.



An outright ban on sparkies definitely doesn't make any sense.

So if any of you guys are down because your sparkies aren't allowed at your local field. I now invite you to any of our events during our HPR season where you can fly as many sparkies as your pocket book/ credit limit will allow for.

If anyone is actually interested in coming to one of our launches get a hold of me or our Anchorage club and we'd be happy to help you out with your rocket logistics. We have 30 Sq. Miles of frozen lake, and a 50k ft waiver with your name on it!

Xrain said:

Hehe, I can absolutely assure you that you will not set any of our primary HPR fields on fire, with any size of sparky motor you can come up with. If you do manage to catch our field on fire, I think I will be concerned about a great many other things than the fire you just started.

View attachment 185820

An outright ban on sparkies definitely doesn't make any sense.

So if any of you guys are down because your sparkies aren't allowed at your local field. I now invite you to any of our events during our HPR season where you can fly as many sparkies as your pocket book/ credit limit will allow for.

If anyone is actually interested in coming to one of our launches get a hold of me or our Anchorage club and we'd be happy to help you out with your rocket logistics. We have 30 Sq. Miles of frozen lake, and a 50k ft waiver with your name on it!

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And "night" launches at high noon? Do you folks fly year round up there? I thought we were hearty - tips hat.

jcato said:

Thobin, before I wade any further into this morass, I'd like you to answer three questions for me (us):

1) How old are you?

2) Have you ever been in the position of (prime) responsibility for a launch site (i.e. the main one responsible to the landowner)?

2a) If you have (now or in the past), how long?

3) Do you own (or have you ever owned) the property you fly from (including all potential landing areas)? What is the nature of your relationship with the surrounding landowners?

(OK, some may say that's more than three -- but I'm in hopes we don't have to descend that deep into adolescent thinking).

Click to expand...

John, your questions made me think of a comment I've heard several times from a Prefect I know well, in regards to decisions made by his club: "I don't want to be the last Prefect of <club name>"

That's the attitude every Prefect/Section Leader/Club Officer should have -- you want to make decisions that protect the landowner, the landowner's gracious permission to use the land, and the club.

-Kevin

Troj, Meatball 1, jcato, et al.,

You guys are, as usual, absolutely right. I withdraw my foolish comment that it is "foolish" to ban sparkies without experience of fires. I was more thinking along the lines of a club banning them based on "hearsay" than experience; i.e., "We've heard that they cause fires, so we don't allow them," vs. "We've seen them cause fires, so we don't allow them." My comment came out all goofy.

As I thought more about it, I guess there are lots of potential frustrations in this hobby, sparky bans being a minor one. But you may arrive at a launch with a bunch of MPR rockets with 1/4" lugs, only to find out that it is too windy for long rods that day. Or you may show up with a bunch of K and L motors, only to find that the waiver has been reduced.

Sorry if I implied that any of our experienced and wisened prefects are foolish. Not my intention.

The sparkies thread - more sparks flying than from a sparkie.

Winston said:

The sparkies thread - more sparks flying than from a sparkie.

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But so far, no fires. :dark:

GregGleason said:

Thanks Bob.

BTW, my NFPA 1125-2012 edition reads a bit differently:



I wonder if there are different versions.

Greg

PS/FYI for those interested:

100 microns = 0.1 mm ~ 0.0059"
2380 microns = 2.38 mm ~ 0.0937"

Click to expand...

No. There's only one. I simply summarized what was is written.

Bob

Winston said:

The sparkies thread - more sparks flying than from a sparkie.

Click to expand...

Bat-mite said:

But so far, no fires. :dark:

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Trying to start a flame war, are we?

Not I. I prefer :gavel: to :kill:.

And that's :neener:.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

If you don't like the club's rules, go somewhere else. Personally, I'm not a big sparky fan, because I can't see shelling out more money to see 20% of the total impulse go to flaming bits that don't end up as thrust. They do look great for night flights, though.

CzTeacherMan said:

This whole debate has got me thinking... Here's my two cents: I'll fly or not fly whatever the club wants me to. It's their launch. If I'm a part of the club, then I'll weigh in with my opinion but accept the group's decision because that's the purpose of a club...
In the meantime, I'm holding on to my I180 Skidmark until I can launch it safely on a badass rocket.

Click to expand...

Maybe we need water curtains like the "real" rockets...

cerving said:

If you don't like the club's rules, go somewhere else. Personally, I'm not a big sparky fan, because I can't see shelling out more money to see 20% of the total impulse go to flaming bits that don't end up as thrust. They do look great for night flights, though.

Click to expand...

Sometimes there is nowhere else to go. The OP did not state what the field conditions are like. Plowed , grassland, etc. If it would be obvious that a sparky would be safe to launch and the club doesn't allow them I don't think that is fair. The motors are out there, to some they are favorites. Again if there is that much fear of a sparky igniting a serious fire at a launch site, the ground they are standing on is that volatile, then they are launching in the wrong location to begin with. Sounds like someone has Sparkaphobia.

My club had a fire caused by a sparky last year. The rocket flew fine, but the wind blew the sparks into an area that was not cleared of dead cornstalks. Additionally, the rocketeer forgot to tell us it was a sparky. Anyway, we lit some cornstalks on fire and it took about 10 people 15 minutes to ensure the fire was out.

The rocketeer was a seasoned veteran and a club member in good standing, so it a simple oversight, not someone trying to go around the safety rules. The club briefly considered banning sparkies, but decided that the weather and ground conditions at each launch will be evaluated to determine if sparkies will be allowed at a particular launch.

Launching from a harvested corn field requires its own set of safety rules. My biggest concern isn't fire, but rather that someone will fall and impale themselves on the corn stalk stubble. Those suckers are sharp and nasty!

A few things that I find amazing (but probably should not):

1) The idea that sparkies can't start fires. While I have never personally seen them, I can recall seeing news stories of grass fires starting from welding which also involves sparks flying. (And some of those started hours after the welding was done.)
2) The idea that catos would have any bearing on the sparky conversation. (Unless one could posit that a sparky is less likely to cato.) As it is, you have only added risk.
3) There are definitely places where the risk increase is insignificant. Launching from a frozen or dry lake would seem very sparky safe locations.

So far, the only fires I have seen on the ground were from ejection charge on a failed flight. Then again, our club doesn't allow sparky motors. Some in the club would be against them even if we had a plowed field. When we thought we might get to fly in a freshly plowed field, the president seemed in favor of allowing sparky motors. It turned out academic as we were not able to get a waiver for that field.

I will say that the videos of sparky motors looked cool. And if I get a chance, I will fly a sparky. I love flying black jack motors because they look cool. And for those who feel that it borders on fireworks - I don't care. I can see comparison to sparks flying and fireworks explosion. But as for colored flame or smoke, get real or get labeled as a senseless politician.

I won't say what you should or shouldn't feel about a fire department involved in your launch. But will say that a (somewhat) local fireworks vendor has quite a thing hiring the volunteer fire department to be on site with a truck while he sells fireworks that you can launch in the field behind him. They get extra funding and he makes a ton of cash. Win win. If you have a department that might enjoy the launch, invite them to come with the truck, enjoy the show and give them lunch. Many firefighters would enjoy the launch even knowing the risk of fire exists.

chadrog said:

And "night" launches at high noon? Do you folks fly year round up there? I thought we were hearty - tips hat.

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We aren't THAT far north (though the day can be pretty short). Our HPR season is generally from December to April. Our first major HPR launch is usually in February, with our main event launch (We call it $$$ to Smoke) is mid April. We generally rent several rooms in a lodge on the lake to operate out of, and bring snowmobiles to recover the rockets. Summer months we only do low power launches.

blackjack2564 said:

Cleared area chart:View attachment 185800


PDF of whole safe distance chart in case you need a full copy for your records Chuck.

View attachment 185801

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Thanks. This is what I thought. I just wanted to make sure my understanding was correct.


Can someone explain the clear distance to me? Say is says a 50 foot clear distance. We have a ditch that sometimes contains some brown or green grass. Is it all grass or just the brown stuff that might burn.

If it is all grass, then they should be flown as sod farms at all. Before I make rule changes for our club, i want to make sure I have all the facts.

It means all combustable material in that 50ft circle must be raked clear, covered with welding blankets, soaked down with water to the point of not being able to burn, covered with dirt...... anything you can think of to render that area non-flammable. You & I have both seen dry green sod burn, especially if there is a breeze stoking it. All the cut dead dry grass turns to thatch, and is highly flammable under the green.

Most common is to cut high dead weeds, and rake dry thatch etc. & spray with water to keep from burning. Water must usually be re-applied many times during launch,usual right before flying a sparkie. Basically wet down burn area so it can't.

Many clubs have a designated pad/pads just for this to keep things simple.
Usually if there are many spark launches, the area get charred and burnt from putting out the smoldering & as time goes on that pad/area is rendered pretty fire resistant.
Our club launching from the road is just fine, it would be better if someone were out by the pad area[ in photographer area], with fire control, to put anything out, during spark launch, especially big motors that can spew Ti on there way up, off into the side area, like they always do...LOL

cerving said:

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

If you don't like the club's rules, go somewhere else. Personally, I'm not a big sparky fan, because I can't see shelling out more money to see 20% of the total impulse go to flaming bits that don't end up as thrust. They do look great for night flights, though.

Click to expand...

But go over and look at the TRF Calendar Pictures thread. It's obvious that people really like how sparkies look, especially in photographs.

Chuck: do you have the Sep/Oct issue of Sport Rocketry? If you do, take a look at the NSL launch and notice the field, and that sparkies were used. Green grass that is short with little to no thatch will be safe. Longer grass/weeds etc. normally found in ditches could be green ( new growth) but have inches of dry dead grass (thatch) underneath the new growth. Besides a plowed field a sod farm should be one of the safest places to fly as far as fires go. They are not going to sell dead dried out grass to anybody that wants sod!

Back to the ditch. If it is in your launch area that needs to be clear( any grass over a few inches high,with lots of thatch, a normal ditch) and you have no choice by moving the pads further away, clear it. A gas powered "weed eater" with metal blade if needed, does wonders. Take it as low to the ground as you can. Rake up the cuttings get them out of the area. Once a year should be good depending on weather conditions. The new growth, again depending on weather conditions, will not burn as long as it is green. Keep your eyes on that area.

Yellowish grass in green grass will not burn. Brown,"crispy" grass will burn. How fast a fire will spread depends upon a few things. How dense the material is, the moisture content remaining in that material, and the biggest factor, the wind speed.

It's fall, lets use leaves as an example. A freshly fallen leave will not burn as fast as one that has been laying around a week losing its internal moisture. Ok, it's been a week we have nice dry crispy leaves on the ground. I have lots of green grass still showing between the leaves. I start a leave on fire, it burned the one next to it, both went out, had some green grass between them and the next leave. Now I'm going to rake some together about ten leaves deep. I have an area 3x3 feet of leaves ten deep surrounded by green grass. I started them on fire and they totally burned up until reaching the grass and went out. This was a windless day, I would hope everyone understands what the effects of the wind speed can do. Little or no wind with anything burning will mean a much slower spread.

I would clear out any high grass if located in an area that needs to be clear whether it looks like it needs to be or not. Take it down to the ground, rake it up, and go farther than required. And regardless of where you are launching never let that morning dew fool you into thinking it is safe to launch. Material with no internal moisture left will burn regardless of that moisture on top of it. Fly safe!!

I see Jim already has answerd your question, but will post mine anyway, have been working on it the last hour between chores here!