My path to level 2. A painkiller, a Scion, and a whole lot of time. (Successful!)

To clear the air, this is going to be a slow thread for a couple winter builds that I'll be working with.

Right now my highest impulse flight is with Aerotech E-18W's, so I'm going to take a couple baby steps on the way before going for the gusto.
My plan right now is to by the end of Summer 2015 be L2 certified, with a stretch goal of doing my L1 and L2 flights on the same day if reality allows it.
The one thing I am NOT going to do is force this, and cause myself to do dumb mistakes. I spent too many years in commercial aviation to take big risks without a critical need to do so.

So, here's the plan.
Stage 1: Convert my existing Estes QCC explorer to fit an av bay for the eggtimer I recently built. I'm going to stick with motor charge deployment for now, this phase is to learn the altimeter and do comparisons between sim and reality to figure out where I need to work in extra safety factors. I know it flies well on E's, and trust it will do fine on lower impulse F's, but that's as far as I feel comfortable pushing this airframe.

Stage 2: A Painkiller Micro. This is for getting back into working with two part epoxies and fiberglass. Skills permitting, I'll start this with motor deployment then move to apogee deployment with an altimeter. Main target here is If I get comfortable I also want to move it to dual deployment, and start pushing higher altitudes.

Stage 3: Painkiller 3, L1 flight. It's a 54mm bird, and I honestly don't feel like running 38's with an adapter in it. I may change my mind later, that's a decision for 6 months from now. The plan for now is a dual deployment L1 flight with one of the single grain 54mm CTI motors. Any of them except the Vmax.

Stage 4: Painkiller 3, L2 flight. Same as stage 3, but moving to a 2 or 3 grain J motor.

Lots of details to work out over the next few months, lots of building to do, lots of fun to be had.

Cool! Subscribed!

Sounds like a very good plan to me.

^+1!!

Sounds like a logical reasonable plan, I'll be following!

Nate

My advice, is do not plan too far ahead, as if you do, you may miss some learning steps along the way. Using Mid Power, learn what you need to do a L1 flight, and when you do the actual cert, keep it as simple as possible. After the cert, play around with a few designs or techniques when planning your L2, and then plan your L2. My L1 bird, I flew one time, but built a few L1 birds (with 38mm MMTs) to play around after that. Tried a few different things, such as types of motor retention, material for the retention harness, etc, and also learned how to pic the proper delay for motor eject (this was back when you couldn't adjust the delays without violating the safety codes). My L2 flight was a 3fnc, but with a 38mm MMT, and motor ejection. I again, have only flown that bird one time - my cert. Then, spend a bunch of time having fun with L1 and L2 birds. A great time to play around with electonics (just add a payload bay to a L1 bird that can mount a few different altimeters to try out and get the techniques for using electornics down pat. If you want to play around with staging or clustering HPS, this is also a good time to do that (you've been part of a club long enough by this time you also know who to talk to if you have questions about more complex stuff...) I never used an altimeter until after I got L2, but by that time, when I RSOed, I could look at a rocket, guess it's weight, and based on the motor, be fairly sure if a delay was too short or way too long. In the club I was in, you had to be L2 to RSO, and it was common to have 3-4 take shifts RSOing during a launch. That's more learing for moving to L3, BTW. You see what others are doing, and again learn new techniques.

After L1, it was probably a year before I planned by L2, and maybe another year before I even thought about L3, and getting L3 probably 2 years after that (with two club launches a month that whole time). Certs are a learning process and not merit badges, and a critical part is to learn along the way, IMHO. Levels are NOT just impulse levels, but need to be based on experience. It can be simple things - for example, if I prep a flight using electronics, I'll tie a ribbon round it before I head to the pad, and only remove that ribbon when it's on the pad and armed. (you don't hear the altimiter beeping from the flight line...) I can't count the number of bad flights I've seen caused by nothing more than forgetting to arm it, This is something you'll never see in the safety codes, but is something you learn with experience

Don't plan a L2 until you have L1 and learned is my suggestion. Don't run when you should walk and learn from the experience!

If the largest motor you've flown is an E, fly some F's and G's before L1. That alone can be a learning curve!

Reco, I completely get your train of thought there and nothing on my end is set in stone. I have no problem with stopping at any given point to re-evaluate my plans. I guess you can more accurately refer to these as my tentative goals. I won't push any harder than I feel comfortable with.

I probably should add that I am not coming into this completely cold. I do have a degree in Aeronautics, and spent over a decade in aviation radio operations as a career. Even have my FCC General to cover any transmitters. These days I work in electronics manufacturing. So I know my plan may come off as aggressive, but I wouldn't be attempting it unless I thought it was comfortably within my skillset. I also have a few experiments I want to try along the way that may surprise you, but I am going to hold those close for a bit.

I don't view L2 as just a big motor club, and am looking at it from the viewpoint of learning materials, construction, electronics, vehicle performance, and ground operations. On the flip side, I don't want to just hit bare minimums and squeak by into the certs. I want to EARN them by pushing further into them than just minimums, and set my own personal gateway higher than NAR and Tripoli require. I know I could build something like an Aerotech Sumo in a week and get my L1 on cruise control with a small H, but it's not how I like to do things. I like to do things the hard way, just one of my quirks.

-Hans

HHaase said:

Reco, I completely get your train of thought there and nothing on my end is set in stone. I have no problem with stopping at any given point to re-evaluate my plans. I guess you can more accurately refer to these as my tentative goals. I won't push any harder than I feel comfortable with.

I probably should add that I am not coming into this completely cold. I do have a degree in Aeronautics, and spent over a decade in aviation radio operations as a career. Even have my FCC General to cover any transmitters. These days I work in electronics manufacturing. So I know my plan may come off as aggressive, but I wouldn't be attempting it unless I thought it was comfortably within my skillset. I also have a few experiments I want to try along the way that may surprise you, but I am going to hold those close for a bit.

I don't view L2 as just a big motor club, and am looking at it from the viewpoint of learning materials, construction, electronics, vehicle performance, and ground operations. On the flip side, I don't want to just hit bare minimums and squeak by into the certs. I want to EARN them by pushing further into them than just minimums, and set my own personal gateway higher than NAR and Tripoli require. I know I could build something like an Aerotech Sumo in a week and get my L1 on cruise control with a small H, but it's not how I like to do things. I like to do things the hard way, just one of my quirks.

-Hans

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If you've only flew two E's, you are way off base planning a L2 bird, IMHO. I've RSO's hundred of flights, and was both a NAR section advisor and TRA prefect. Suggesting a plan concerns me. You need to understand what you know today, and if not, you won't learn through the process. HPR is a different world, and as I said, it's not just building a bigger bird, but learning both the build and launch techniques. Enjoy the journey and learn along the way, but don't assume you understand far more than you do.... The certs are a path and not a destination. Someone that had flown two "E" motors is simply foolish in proposing a L2 bird, IMHO.

One thing you haven't learned, for example, is that ALL cert flights should be as simple as possible. The "KISS" principle. You want to prove you can do it, and have as few possible points of failure as possible. After the cert, you can be a bit adventurous. For example, any one that uses electronics for deployment on a L1 or L2 cert flight is simply a fool, as it's not needed, and increases the risk of failure.

You need to understand, as E is really nothing, as an H is 8 times that in power, right?, and I is double an H, and a J (first L2 motor) is double an I), so for L2, you're looking at something 32 times the biggest motor you've flown.

RecoRocket said:

One thing you haven't learned, for example, is that ALL cert flights should be as simple as possible. The "KISS" principle. You want to prove you can do it, and have as few possible points of failure as possible. After the cert, you can be a bit adventurous. For example, any one that uses electronics for deployment on a L1 or L2 cert flight is simply a fool, as it's not needed, and increases the risk of failure.

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I guess I'm a fool then. I used DD on my L1 cert and also used a Loki I110W moonburner to get the maximum altitude out of it. I've been flying L2 for 5 years and have never made a L2 flight without DD, including the cert flight which I did on a K motor. I find your attitude against electronics on cert flights narrow minded, especially for L2.

RecoRocket said:

For example, any one that uses electronics for deployment on a L1 or L2 cert flight is simply a fool, as it's not needed, and increases the risk of failure.

.

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I am going to take the high ground here.Thinking that it's hard to get one's tone when writing, over actually in conversation.

If using electronics is foolish & increases risk of failure......why then is it mandatory for L-3 attempts...where the flight is the most dangerous of all due to...size...weight ...power. Many L-2 flights are on L's..... not much difference between a full L and a baby M.

On top of that the most costly, on average over 1000.00. Seems like if that were truly the case, all motors would have delays,as in olden times.

Todays altimeters, even the inexpensive ones are much more accurate in determining apogee events than a common delay grain.

I always felt it was more in tune with the theme of mentoring to "steer" the new guy in the correct & "safe'' way to fly, rather than push my methods on him. Many people like to fly many different ways for different reasons. Their's may be totally different than mine.

Simply wanting to learn proper Dual-deploy, becoming astute at it, then doing cert flights with it, seems to increase one's chance of success, not deter it?

I may or may not agree with the OP's line of thinking, but am totally on board to help him reach his goal . My role would be to get him there safely, as long as that mode is followed, it should not matter what route he takes.

Please expound on your logic, behind your line of thinking.

My tone is simply one of curiosity, not to belittle or bash another.:smile:

blackjack2564 said:

I am going to take the high ground here.Thinking that it's hard to get one's tone when writing, over actually in conversation.

If using electronics is foolish & increases risk of failure......why then is it mandatory for L-3 attempts...where the flight is the most dangerous of all due to...size...weight ...power. Many L-2 flights are on L's..... not much difference between a full L and a baby M.

On top of that the most costly, on average over 1000.00. Seems like if that were truly the case, all motors would have delays,as in olden times.

Todays altimeters, even the inexpensive ones are much more accurate in determining apogee events than a common delay grain.

I always felt it was more in tune with the theme of mentoring to "steer" the new guy in the correct & "safe'' way to fly, rather than push my methods on him. Many people like to fly many different ways for different reasons. Their's may be totally different than mine.

Simply wanting to learn proper Dual-deploy, becoming astute at it, then doing cert flights with it, seems to increase one's chance of success, not deter it?

I may or may not agree with the OP's line of thinking, but am totally on board to help him reach his goal . My role would be to get him there safely, as long as that mode is followed, it should not matter what route he takes.

Please expound on your logic, behind your line of thinking.

My tone is simply one of curiosity, not to belittle or bash another.:smile:

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+1 on all points. Very well stated.

Todays electronics are very good...and very easy. I've had more long/failed delays than I have altimeter failures (zero).

The painkiller is a great way to go for it. Perfect size for both flights, and bigger L2 later on.

I planned to wait a year or so between my L1 and L2 flights. Turned out after about three months that's where I wanted to be, so I did. Set your own pace and don't let anyone but your prefect tell you how long it should be. Truth be told I build my L2 rocket before I even got my L1. If anyone would like to inspect that rocket and tell me it's not L2 worthy, they are welcome to come see it. Nothing wrong with planning ahead man.

DD on the PKM, I'm at least looking to toss tracking into mine... the 6 grain CTI's will put it up around 3300'. Thinking of different ways to do it. Be interesting to see what you planned.

Definitely a healthy debate early-on, and I am taking it all in for consideration. I don't want anybody to think otherwise.
Even if I disagree with things, I am the kinda guy that thinks disagreement is a good thing and will listen to different opinions.
That being said, I do still feel comfortable with my initial planning and for the time being will continue forward with it.

Dave;
I'm not really sure yet on the DD for the PKM. 38mm makes things a bit tight of a fit, but there is plenty of available length in the body tube to do things more in-line. I don't know yet for sure if I want to go with a traditional split tube DD, or maybe try something with a cable cutter. I don't think it will be possible to fit both DD and tracking, it's going to be one or the other.

-Hans

HHaase said:

Definitely a healthy debate early-on, and I am taking it all in for consideration. I don't want anybody to think otherwise.
Even if I disagree with things, I am the kinda guy that thinks disagreement is a good thing and will listen to different opinions.
That being said, I do still feel comfortable with my initial planning and for the time being will continue forward with it.

Dave;
I'm not really sure yet on the DD for the PKM. 38mm makes things a bit tight of a fit, but there is plenty of available length in the body tube to do things more in-line. I don't know yet for sure if I want to go with a traditional split tube DD, or maybe try something with a cable cutter. I don't think it will be possible to fit both DD and tracking, it's going to be one or the other.

-Hans

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I'm considering cutting off some body tube, and bolting the NC to the forward section of it. Would give enough space for both and a cutter. With a small chute though I'm fairly comfortable deploying the main at 3000. For now I'm just enjoying flying it on single use E15's. I've been friction fitting them, but just picked up an aeropack so I can start comfortably using the 24/40 case and E18's

With the wind around here, a main chute deployment at 3,000ft would just be too much lateral drift for my liking. I know I won't be flying the Micro on 6 grain motors any time soon, so I can easily build it for a basic motor deployment for now and modify later.

I never had much success with friction fitting, always end up ejecting the motor and not the parachute/streamer. So I decided to not take that route anymore. Everything gets a hook or retainer now.

-Hans

I'm typically the same... but I built this literally still warm from the UPS truck's exhaust, so I fitted the first couple flights... went well.

Good luck on your certs!

Look forward to reading about your endeavors in getting your certs.

Subscribed

qquake2k said:

I think your chosen path sounds very reasonable. Whatever works. In my case, I wasn't even planning on getting a high power cert. I thought I'd just go to the launches, fly my LPR's and MPR's, and watch other's high power flights (let them spend the money). But somewhere along the line, I got the itch. I got my Level 1, and was happy with that for a year. But then I got another itch, and got my Level 2. So far I haven't gotten the Level 3 itch, but I won't say never...

Click to expand...

Do I hear a 7.5" 75mm Shadow in the making?

The big that to me just makes sense is don't learn DD on a bird that you are attached to. All might go well, but if it doesn't you will surely break a fin on the QCC Explorer.

Also keep in mind that it will take some time to inflate the main chute. How much time seems to vary quite a bit from what I have seen.

For what it is worth, I took a road not recommended for my level 1 and wouldn't trade it. My first attempt failed because of a stupid error in finishing assembly. Lesson learned. The next failure was when my rocket teleported out of sight. Everyone who saw it remembers it well. I spent more than two hours looking for the rocket. It was found about three months later. Attempt number three had eyes rolling as it still wasn't a big fat rocket. But... I had a tracker this time and had tested to ensure that I would be able to go to the rocket.

This time someone spotted it just after deployment. But I wasn't really concerned since I knew just where it was. I had an Eggfinder and my phone said I was 35 feet from the rocket when I stood over it. I can live with that. It was also consistent with my test. Not sure why they are different. Will take time to look into it sometime.

I am starting to think about level 2. I have parts to build it with, but think I will build a mid power from plans first.


Kirk

Subscribed. Similar plan. Got my L1 this Sunday. I'll be getting my L2 bird within the next month or so. Already have a parts list and prices. Started acquiring parts already. Documenting my journey and will start a thread when I'm ready to start building. Share your lessons!

CzTeacherMan said:

Subscribed. Similar plan. Got my L1 this Sunday. I'll be getting my L2 bird within the next month or so. Already have a parts list and prices. Started acquiring parts already. Documenting my journey and will start a thread when I'm ready to start building. Share your lessons!

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Congratulations on your Level 1!

DizWolf said:

Do I hear a 7.5" 75mm Shadow in the making?

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:lol: No, but it would be a good L3 bird.

Robert DeHate said that the only reason he got his L3 was that he was scratch building a rocket that was getting so heavy that he realized it would never get off the pad on anything shy of an M.

My advice to anyone would be to build rockets that you can fly below your cert level and at your cert level. For example, I built an Aerotech Sumo and flew it lots of times on a G80. One day I stuck and H in it and certified. Then I built my Vertical Assault and flew it on a 38mm I motor before I put a J in it.

I would be hesitant to try to cert on a rocket that I had never flown before. But the good news is that if you fail, you only have to wait 30 days to try again.

Bat-mite said:

I would be hesitant to try to cert on a rocket that I had never flown before. But the good news is that if you fail, you only have to wait 30 days to try again.

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Are you saying this, meaning 30 days till your next launch?

Otherwise you can make another attempt the same day with same rocket or another one if you wish.
Just wanted this clear for others reading.

Nothing I have ever read states you must wait 30 days. If you have different data I would love to hear it.

Box 'o parts arrived today, so I can finish up the QCC conversion for an av-bay. A few circuit boards are taking up my work area at the moment though, and I have to get them finished up and shipped off to customers before I have room to do rocket work. Either way, build photos start within the next couple days.

-Hans

I look at it this way- the odds of failure from a slightly undersized motor are higher than just punching an H or I. Even if both motors are within a decent safety margin, a G/test flight just risks damage. If you built for H, test fly it on an H and cert . A failed G is just as bad as a failed H, but with no possible payout.

That's partially why I've decided to fly my first flight on the Mini Magg for cert. The other reason is it' going to go over 53 oz, but I also decided it's probably better to not fly it underpowered for the first flight.