BRB900 vs Eggfinder is there a difference other than build time and price?

I can't see anyone using an Eggfinder for a 30K+ record attempt, for sure the radio won't reach that far, and as has been pointed out it doesn't have on-board memory. That's not what it's for... it's so flyers can put a GPS tracker in their sport rockets to get them back. Any real-time telemetry short of just before apogee is really just a bonus, it may be nice to get a track for the first few seconds of flight but it won't help you get back your rocket. You can't even use it to interpolate the direction that your rocket may be drifting under chute, because thermals and swirling winds don't have much effect on a rocket going 500+ fps.

"Hi all, I made this cool toaster which toasts bread really nicely every time and is much less expensive than other toasters"
"Why doesn't your toaster have a bagel function? Other toasters have a bagel function"
"I designed it just to be really good at doing toast and left out other functions to keep the price down"
"But if you buy this component from here and make these changes it could do bagels"
....and so on...

Long story short - if you want a toaster that does Bagels - go buy one with a Bagel function.

+++++++++1

Zebedee said:

"Hi all, I made this cool toaster which toasts bread really nicely every time and is much less expensive than other toasters"
"Why doesn't your toaster have a bagel function? Other toasters have a bagel function"
"I designed it just to be really good at doing toast and left out other functions to keep the price down"
"But if you buy this component from here and make these changes it could do bagels"
....and so on...

Long story short - if you want a toaster that does Bagels - go buy one with a Bagel function.

Click to expand...

+1
I love my cool, bare bones toaster! One day, when I have a craving for bagels, I'll buy a toaster that's designed to toast bagels. For now, I'll stick to toast.

There will likely be a "more" affordable GPS tracker system acceptable for TRA records attempts in the future. Costs will go down over time. 10 years ago, an all-in-one device like offered by Altus Metrum was only a pipe dream. 7 years ago, a full featured APRS portable mapping, tracking system would cost $700.00 to $800.00. The "unlicensed" GPS stuff was about the same if not more. Things have come a very long way. Still, it's a good idea to have "backup" like a long metallic streamer that gets deployed at apogee so one might see the "flashing" at altitude much higher than being able to fixate on the rocket alone. And using a sonic "screamer" to use one's ears in tall vegetation. I had a two stage mod roc that hit over 3k and I was looking to the south. My ears picked up the screamer while the rocket was still coming in and guided my head to look to the north! If I didn't have the screamer to guide my ears, I wouldn't have known where to go. It also landed in corn and I saw the approximate place but wouldn't have been able to find it easily without the aural guide. If the fancy Rf stuff fails, backup might be a deal saver if there's room to carry it. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

There will likely be a "more" affordable GPS tracker system acceptable for TRA records attempts in the future.

Click to expand...

This man speaks the truth... I also predict it will be extremely scalable as well. (white toast, bagels, muffins, croissants, pie, cake, etc...)

MWC said:

This man speaks the truth... I also predict it will be extremely scalable as well. (white toast, bagels, muffins, croissants, pie, cake, etc...)

Click to expand...

Two questions:

1) 900 MHz or HAM license required
2) When

Cl(VII) said:

Two questions:

1) 900 MHz or HAM license required
2) When

Click to expand...

900 Mhz ISM band: https://www.semtech.com/images/promo/FCC_Part15_regulations_Semtech.pdf Ham License not required, power limitation which may or may not matter. Generally will be shorter ranged than tracking options in the 70cm or 2m ham band which of course would require a tech license. Tech license not that hard to get with online study materials and $17.00 test.

When? Hard to say. Depends upon whether or not a skillful flier can take the time to develop a product and sell it. Not that likely to be that great of demand.
With low production runs, price tends to be higher. Kurt

Cl(VII) said:

Two questions:

1) 900 MHz or HAM license required
2) When

Click to expand...

1) 900MHz ISM with multi-modem support. No issue with range (comparable to Multitronix system).
2) Barring any additional technical setbacks or development preemption, should have beta tests before Thansgiving and be available as stocking stuffers.

MWC said:

1) 900MHz ISM with multi-modem support. No issue with range (comparable to Multitronix system).
2) Barring any additional technical setbacks or development preemption, should have beta tests before Thansgiving and be available as stocking stuffers.

Click to expand...

...

Cl(VII) said:

...

Click to expand...

I also predict the scalability will provide very attractive pricing options, and it "plugs-and-plays" with existing modules and "to be released" modules...

MWC said:

I also predict the scalability will provide very attractive pricing options, and it "plugs-and-plays" with existing modules and "to be released" modules...

Click to expand...

MMMmmmmm..... I think I see my Christmas present!

Getting back to the OP...

My BRB900 system looks like this. Note the onboard battery (behind yellow shrink wrap) on the transmitter and the white-cased receiver:




The EggFinder looks like this after conman assembles it (love his entrepreneurial spirit, btw!):

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?119859-Eggfinder-Eggtimer-Assembly

If I am not mistaken, looks like you need to provide your own battery(s) and mounting. Unless you want your receiver dangling by wires, you also need to make a protective case of some sort.

Big shout out to the BRB900. I pushed it to the extreme (for me) this past weekend. I quickly lost site of my rocket heading off at an angle to an altitude of 12k feet. As I stood at the range, the last signal from the BRB900 before touchdown said it was 2.25 miles away - well beyond anything I tried to retrieve in the past. I got in my car and went after it, crossing farmland, houses, woodlots, swamps, gullies, and more farmland - ie, it was not on a clear line of sight. Within a couple hundred yards, the receiver updated with fresh packets. Sure enough, there she was where the BRB said it was - in the middle of a field 2.25 miles away. After getting the nice landowner's permission to retrieve it, I was a happy camper.

Buckeye said:

Getting back to the OP...

My BRB900 system looks like this. Note the onboard battery (behind yellow shrink wrap) on the transmitter and the white-cased receiver:

View attachment 246957View attachment 246958


The EggFinder looks like this after conman assembles it (love his entrepreneurial spirit, btw!):

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?119859-Eggfinder-Eggtimer-Assembly

If I am not mistaken, looks like you need to provide your own battery(s) and mounting. Unless you want your receiver dangling by wires, you also need to make a protective case of some sort.

Big shout out to the BRB900. I pushed it to the extreme (for me) this past weekend. I quickly lost site of my rocket heading off at an angle to an altitude of 12k feet. As I stood at the range, the last signal from the BRB900 before touchdown said it was 2.25 miles away - well beyond anything I tried to retrieve in the past. I got in my car and went after it, crossing farmland, houses, woodlots, swamps, gullies, and more farmland - ie, it was not on a clear line of sight. Within a couple hundred yards, the receiver updated with fresh packets. Sure enough, there she was where the BRB said it was - in the middle of a field 2.25 miles away. After getting the nice landowner's permission to retrieve it, I was a happy camper.

Click to expand...

Thanks!
Eggfinder:

The TX needs a battery. the regular RX comes with a cord that connects to the laptop to receive data and it also provides power. The LCD RX comes with a 4X AA battery holder and a black housing for the unit that you need to cut openings in.

conman13 said:

Thanks!
Eggfinder:

The TX needs a battery. the regular RX comes with a cord that connects to the laptop to receive data and it also provides power. The LCD RX comes with a 4X AA battery holder and a black housing for the unit that you need to cut openings in.

Click to expand...

The given case for the EF LCD can be used in another fashion: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...for-Eggfinder-GPS-Tracker&p=739782#post739782

Scroll above in the same thread and there is a link for the ribbon cable on ebay. I like my antenna on top and "out in the breeze". Probably doesn't make much difference as the mounting the antenna on the side of the box: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...for-Eggfinder-GPS-Tracker&p=728305#post728305

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...for-Eggfinder-GPS-Tracker&p=728359#post728359

The ribbon cable is here you can build two LCD units with one cable: https://www.ebay.com/itm/40pcs-20cm...H_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e2828fc7&afsrc=1

Sooooo, one can build the EF LCD with the stock box the unit comes with in a vertical fashion if desired.

Just remember, one has to build it and it is not acceptable for altitude record attempts above 30k' (TRA). The Sirf unit in the EF is just fine and dandy for lat/long but altitude is not the most reliable. The EF was designed to economically find a rocket. Altitude is not
important to do that.

The BRB unit doesn't have any issues with that whatsoever, is built and ready to go out of the box, plus it has onboard memory to record more datapoints for download for record attempt submission. If one is not a ham operator, the BRB at $378.00 with the LCD, is the most economical, self contained GPS tracker that can be used for record attempts PERIOD. Don't believe me? Go to the TRA document here and price the alternatives:
https://www.tripoli.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=qM5Rub0u6jM=&tabid=285

Kurt (I'm a fan of both devices though I use the BRB APRS trackers as I invested in that equipment before anything else was available.)

DizWolf said:

Is there any way, or any plans to make it possible, to get a map on a tablet/phone with the BRB900?

Click to expand...

Since this question was asked about a year and half ago without any direct answers. I will ask it again. My specific case it with an Iphone 5S. I have the BRB900 without the LCD display so currently I plug it into my laptop grab the last location point from the Telnet program and enter it into a GPS app on my iPhone and take off toward that location. Issue here is if the rocket is being blown by the wind. If you have every flown at the Kloudbuster's rocket pasture you know this is highly probable and the location I grabbed is old. I would like to plug the receiver into my phone and then still have live GPS data. I will still have to look at the Telnet app (I found several in the app store) but then I can just copy & paste it into the GPS app. I will need a female USB to lightning cable to make the physical connector but if someone has already tried this without any luck then I won't waste my time with it.

davdue said:

Since this question was asked about a year and half ago without any direct answers. I will ask it again. My specific case it with an Iphone 5S. I have the BRB900 without the LCD display so currently I plug it into my laptop grab the last location point from the Telnet program and enter it into a GPS app on my iPhone and take off toward that location. Issue here is if the rocket is being blown by the wind. If you have every flown at the Kloudbuster's rocket pasture you know this is highly probable and the location I grabbed is old. I would like to plug the receiver into my phone and then still have live GPS data. I will still have to look at the Telnet app (I found several in the app store) but then I can just copy & paste it into the GPS app. I will need a female USB to lightning cable to make the physical connector but if someone has already tried this without any luck then I won't waste my time with it.

Click to expand...

Ok,

I don't know how the BRB900 works but if the protocol is similar to an EggFinder by simply sending the NMEA words that can be decoded serially then yes there is some progress made in direct to map plotting:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-Mapping-Program-Update&p=1543086#post1543086

The problem is the program, APRSIS32 has a high learning curve. I am awaiting another tablet to see if I can set it up as a non-Ham person. I believe it can but gosh, it would be daunting for a beginner.

The YAAC program: https://www.ka2ddo.org/ka2ddo/YAAC.html

Would be A LOT easier for a non-Ham to setup and could track one's position and the rockets in real time on a downloadable, cacheable Open Source Map. https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...apping-Tracking-program&p=1534933#post1534933

One "little" problem with YAAC is it's having trouble dealing with Bluetooth connections in the Windows environment. It is a Java app and it runs beautifully under Linux. I'm active on the YAAC group and the author was very nice when I asked about
simplifying the interface to process a second serial port. He pulled it off in 2 weeks! Trust me on that point as it makes program setup a heck of a lot easier. I live on Linux most of the time and when I went over to a WinBook TW801 tablet with high hopes, that's when the B/T problems became apparent. It's a WinBlows/java issue the author is trying to develop a work-around. The problem is with B/T. When I plugged in a USB EggFinder receiver into the Windows TW801 tablet, YAAC worked fine plotting positions like I show in the link above.

Now, since there are some Bluetooth ham radio devices like a Mobilinkd TNC, B/T TNC-X and AP510, Andrew Pavilin the author of YAAC, is trying to come up with a remedy. When that is accomplished should be a piece o' cake using B/T GPS receivers (to know where your position is) and an HC-06 B/T enabled EggFinder LCD receiver. Like I said if you want to use it under Linux, it works right now USB or Bluetooth.

One would have to ask Greg Clark what the encoding/decoding is with the BRB900. If the BRB 900 receiver simply outputs the NMEA strings (like say a USB GPS receiver that one plugs into a laptop) one will be able to use the BRB900 with the choices I mention above. The EggFinder of course does it in that fashion.

One advantage of NMEA stringing is as long as the signal is decodeable, the potential update rate is 1/sec as opposed to once every 5 seconds with APRS. Not an issue with Beelines as one can simply set the Beeline GPS to store the positions at 1/sec rate for later download. Once every 5 seconds is adequate for recovery purposes. APRS packets are limited to once every 5 seconds due to reliability. (I got that down to once every 3 seconds by some tricks in another tracking program) :wink:

APRSIS32 works right now and I detail the gist of it in the thread. You better believe I will be screaming loud and clear if YAAC gets reliable B/T Windows connectivity so our non-ham brethren with EggFinders can use a real time graphical mapping solution with "no-touch" data input. Really easy to just proceed to the target and make the icons come together. Kurt Savegnago

ksaves2 said:

Ok,

If the BRB 900 receiver simply outputs the NMEA strings (like say a USB GPS receiver that one plugs into a laptop) one will be able to use the BRB900 with the choices I mention above.
Kurt Savegnago

Click to expand...

From the brb_lcd6.pdf file available from bigredbee.com on the BRB900 page:

$BRBTX

BigRedBee Summary Information
$BRBTX, ID0001,*,033618,3412.3456N,12345.6789W,04,2.69,012345,1.24,2F0

Where:
$BRBTX BigRedBee Summary Packet
ID0001 Unique identifier string
* BRB Status Flag
033618 fix taken at 033618 UTC Time
3412.3456N Latitude 34 degrees 12.3456 minutes North
12345.6789W Longitude 123 degrees 45.6789W minutes West
04 4 satellites user to compute position
2.69 HDOP
012345 Altitude in Meters or Feet
1.24 VDOP
2F0 Raw A/D conversion of onboard battery voltage

The string above is what I get in the Telnet program on my laptop and I just take the Lat/Lon out and enter it into my GPS app. The pdf also talks about a mode that transmits raw NMEA data but the summary packet uses less battery power. So someone with app programming ability should be able to ready this data string and parse it out into something a GPS app could read. 30 years ago I could have written code on a mainframe to do that but I haven't done any app programming nor do I have the time to learn it.

I see. I'd run the BRBTX line through a tracking program and see if it's decoded. Barring that, could change to the raw NMEA packet, $GPGGA, and I believe that would be read through an NMEA (GPS) port. Could always attach a bigger battery to the BRB receiver. Heck, Greg ought to give it a go, would be an additional selling point. He simply would need to pipe the stream into the GPS port of any Ham APRS tracking program (UI-View, APRSISCE/32, Xastir, YAAC, SARTrack) for a test and if the positions are plotted, the BRB900 can be used with the two programs I describe.

There's a third program a Linux one, Xastir, that gives the best elegant display but my goodness that's even worse than APRSIS32 to setup. Ease of setup is YAAC<APRSIS32<Xastir with YAAC being the easiest Xastir the hardest.
Simply stated one has to manually setup and run a perl script that monitors the port the NMEA data is coming in from the EggFinder. The Perl script converts the NMEA data to a "pseudo" APRS packet that gets plotted
on the Xastir map. That has the absolute best display with the Rocket icon and parameters such as horizontal speed, altitude and bearing posted right next to the Rocket icon at 1/sec refresh rate as long as decodeable packets are received.. Xastir can save the tracks in whatever form anyone wants including .kml for later review.

Hey just thought of a down and dirty test that would be to set the BRB900 receiver to $GPGGA and if one has an Android device, download and setup "GPS Rocket Locator". If the BRB position is plotted, you're in like flint man.

Kurt

Had some time last night and set my BRB900 from "Enable $BRBTX" to "Enable NMEA" and then downloaded MapSphere on my laptop running Windows 10. Headed out with the BRB900 on the dash and my laptop in the passenger seat. MapSphere tracked my every turn. So then I thought to myself. He so now lets lets leave the laptop in the house and take the BRB900 out for a drive to simulate the rocket going away. It tracked me for about 2 blocks then lost it for awhile. Below are screen shots of the two tests. The yellow highlight in the test 2 screen shot is the actual path I drove. I am thinking that it is just the fact that the receiver had a hard time locking onto the transmitter through my house, trees and the over 1/2 mile distance. Should work fine with a rocket in the open launch field. Either way I have a way to have a map to walk to the location of the rocket. Now one more test is to put the transmitter somewhere and use MapSphere to walk/drive to the transmitter to simulate finding the rocket.

Wow Dave that's nice. A couple of comments here. First, not to poison the well but MapSphere is no longer supported by the developers. If one wants to cache offline maps, some of the links no longer work. I haven't used it in a long time
but I see you were able to get the photomaps to display. You ought to be able to cache them for off line, off the internet grid use.

Second, MapSphere doesn't show where "you" are in relation to the rocket. Yes you get a nice picture but hard to "navigate to" the rocket. Yes you can go through the gyrations that Chris Cerving has in his user guide for the EggFinders to
extract the Lat/Long out of MapSphere but to be frank, it's a PITA. I don't wish to waste time during a launch window, I wanna find the rocket, recover as quickly as possible and go on to fly the next one.

Might I suggest if you have access to an Android device, it doesn't have to be a Phone mind you. GPS, WiFi and Bluetooth only is fine. Download "GPS Rocket Locator" from Google and bind your BRB via B/T to your device and leave the BRB900 receiver on "NMEA".
There is a very strong chance that GPSRL might work with the BRB 900 and believe me, Whooooooooeeeeeeee! That would be great! I asked Greg about this a year and a half ago and it seemed like it wouldn't be compatible. He
might have changed the hardware/software so raw NMEA strings can be had off the BRB900 receiver and if made accessible via a B/T link, it will be compatible with GPSRL. I don't have a BRB900 to test.

I think a user will find GPSRL a much better program to track with because it will use the GPS attached to your Android device to show your "base" position and a red thumbtack point to show the rocket. There will be a datum line projected to the rocket
no matter where it is at so you know were to scroll the map to find the rocket. North is "up" on the map and it's very easy to follow the datum line to the last known position. If you or anyone else with the right equipment can test this out or
have already found out it works, post an announcement and details. It would be a nice selling point for the BRB900.

There is an extra advantage to live map tracking as opposed to manual data handling from one device to another. (Besides avoiding manual data input error.)
As your rocket gets lower, if it's very far away, you'll eventually lose the signal. Now if the last position received is when the rocket is 100 feet or higher up in the air and the wind is blowing hard, you might get to the
last received packet position and see no rocket. Now, if you are within the ground footprint of your tracker, that is the range of your BRB900 tracker with the rocket lying on the ground, you'll be receiving a new position and
can go get the rocket. If between the time the last position was sent and received while the rocket was still up in the air and the wind was blowing hard enough, your rocket might land out of range of the ground footprint of the
transmitter. This is where the "live" map comes in, it's likely the wind didn't shift much while the rocket was coming in down low and you will be able to see instantly the "wind drift" trend line and simply go in that direction to receive
a final position and get the rocket.

The negative side of manual tracking is if one goes to the last known position, finds no rocket and receives no signal might be trouble. If one is standing there scratching their head and decides to continue in the direction
of the "current" prevailing winds, could be more trouble. If the wind has shifted from the time the rocket was coming in to the time the flier made it to the lost known position, they might not get into the ground footprint and lose the rocket ie. wind shifted 90 degrees. Don't laugh, I've see rockets drift in much different directions at altitude than from the prevailing ground wind direction. Plus wind can shift in unpredictable patterns so by the time you get to the
last known position (especially if it takes you a long time to get there) you could end up going the wrong way if you base your judgement on the current ground wind direction.
One simply refers to their map that has been live tracking the rocket and proceeds in the direction that is suggested on the map and not to the current "wind in your face when you get there". That is the very best gamble
they'll get back into the ground footprint and get a final position.

I tell you, having the hardware/software automatically do the tracking chores is so much easier than manually inputting lat/long into another device to plot a course to the recovery. If one makes a mistake, off they go on a wild goose chase. I have witnessed that on two different occasions. One time when a fellow was on a wild goose chase after inputting the wrong units into his handheld mapping GPS, I looked at the fliers Ham/APRS equipment, told him what cable he needed to interface his radio to his handheld
mapping GPS and he's been a very happy camper since. Fully automatic tracking on a map. That was available when the Garmin 60Cs units, Kenwood D7A and the Beeline GPS came out around '05 or '06. Problem was they were very, very expensive and had to have a ham license. There was a 900Mhz system or in fact I believe two of them available back then but were around $1500 at the time.

Sure is a lot nicer now that automatic tracking on a map can be economically achieved. It certainly can relieve a lot of apprehension with completely out of sight flights. If one is tracking to the extremes and taxing the ability
of the 900Mhz system then live map plotting is the best bet to avoid loss. If flying with an expected radius of 2 or 3 miles perhaps not necessary. One might say, "Well the Multitronix "Kate" does plenty of extreme flights on
a 900Mhz system just fine." Well, sure she does but that system is using an optimized antenna on the receive end and the transmitter puts out 1 watt! Like they say nothing beats more horse power!

One last tip if one is really going to be pushing the lower powered 900Mhz trackers to the limit. A patch antenna for in flight monitoring can increase the reception range for flight and for ground recovery use a Yagi especially
since you have an idea where the rocket has landed. I proved to myself the Yagi can increase the ground footprint by doing a recovery and switching off the Yagi for a stock duck antenna when I started to receive packets
with the Yagi attached. The signal disappeared. Put the Yagi back on, and it returned. The beamwidth of a Yagi is too narrow to use for in flight monitoring and aim correctly. With a downed rocket it's easier to aim since the
rocket is less likely to be moving much and it will increase the ground reception footprint radius.

Sport Fliers, you don't need a patch or a Yagi to fly and a stock system will work fine. Like I said, if one is really going to be pushing the range, these tricks will help.

Kurt

Kurt

Yeah the reason I am trying this app is because I don't have access to an Android phone. I have an iPhone. In the past I have entered the coordinates and you are correct it is hard to get them entered correctly. So far I haven't flown a rocket that was completely out of sight so my tracker wasn't really necessary.

I have been able to load maps around my house for offline as you can see from my examples. After that I went to the area around the Rocket Pasture and it appears that all of those maps will be available when offline. I guess I will see next time I go to a launch which will be Distant Thunder in November. As far as knowing where I am on the map really isn't a problem for where I launch because I pretty well know where everything is. Mostly I use the tracker for those times that the rocket went out of sight and we don't know where it went. Also at certain times of the year we have crops that can hide rockets so knowing the location will help to find it when it is hidden in a milo, wheat, or soybean field.

I guess at this point I would ask if anybody out there knows about another app that will read a GPS device connected to the USB port. Another question is will GPSRL work with an Android tablet? If so, maybe I can pick up a little tablet during black friday sales.

I've tried GPSRL with the BR900 in NMEA mode and BT. It doesn't work for some reason. I suspect there's some incompatibility between GPSRL and the NMEA sentences that the u-blox spits out.

Get an Android tablet with an onboard GPS, WiFi and Bluetooth. It will make your life easier. You don't need a phone anymore for GPS Rocket Locator. If you are going to get a tablet like a used Nexus 7, 16Gb should be more than enough if you just want to rocket track. Another thing is if you can get a used Android phone with B/T WiFi and onboard GPS, it will work too. You don't have to have a phone service card to use the Android OS on the device.
You just have to be able to get GPSRL loaded, have it download and save maps to cache of the areas you need and you'll be in business. Kurt

bigredbee said:

I've tried GPSRL with the BR900 in NMEA mode and BT. It doesn't work for some reason. I suspect there's some incompatibility between GPSRL and the NMEA sentences that the u-blox spits out.

Click to expand...

Thanks Greg. Shoot. I was hoping something had changed to make it compatible. Hmmmm, I wired a Ublox GPS into an Eggfinder and at least the EggFinder receiver worked although the altitude was displayed less reliably. The altitude was in the
strings that I can save to a file for later perusal. If you ever can get a live mapping app for the BRB900, would be a great selling point!

Sorry Dave, I guess that shot that down. You can still manually track though and many sport fliers do that with success. The BRB900 is a 250Mw device so it will have a larger ground footprint and longer range in the air. Just make certain that
you input your lat/long with the correct units if you are using a mapping GPS to plot the position and navigate. That is the number one mistake to avoid. Practice at home ad nauseum until it's second nature.

Kurt