Sad: Rocket Camp Cancelled due to lack of interest Part II

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cecil

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I just read the above thread and agreed with most of it. I'm older than most writers; my rocketry projects started in the late '50's and continued through high school. I was isolated on a farm, didn't have transportation to club events, never met a fellow rocket enthusiast, but I did have open fields, an abandoned dairy barn which became my chemistry lab, and I could order anything through magazines as long as I had a parent's signature. (The latter was a cause of great anxiety as my chemical stockpiles were reduced. Fortunately, my mother, who was always solicitous about my health, never refused to sign because, as I learned decades later, she didn't want to thwart my enthusiasms as hers had been thwarted by the Great Depression.) Anyway, as warped as this may translate, what really interested me was not so much a rocket as a missile. I didn't just want altitude; I wanted range, so I never stuffed a parachute into a single rocket that I built from scratch. The engines were made of pressure laminated paper much like an Estee's motor tube now. I formulated my own propellants, experienced explosions on the static test stand I made from a coffee can covered with tracer paper rotating at a known rate to record the movements of a stylus. No felt pens available. I guess the point I'm getting at is that model rocketry, while it has saved some body parts, simply does not have enough testosterone in it to interest the average boy (and if not the boy, probably not the girls either). I used that realization as I created an organic chemistry course in a high school which met two hours every school day, covered most of the material of a first and second semester university course and required a lot of hard out-of-class study if the student were to receive any grade higher than a C. But the students who took the course planned on taking it years in advance. They endured CP chemistry, AP chemistry, and physics so they could finally qualify for that course. I think the main reason they wanted in is that I made sure they synthesized a few compounds of enticing interest: ethanol, fractionally distilled with a challenge to produce the highest purity of all the lab groups (determined by a gas chromatograph), at least one explosive, an amount that could be detonated on top of the lab bench and filmed for their future (source of great delight), flavorings, medicines, inverted stereo isomers and so on. Without that element in the course I'm convinced it would have died very quickly, but instead year by year PARENTS met to either provide funding or organize lobbying efforts aimed at administrators. I suppose I could have played it safe, never used vacuum distillation or any other technique that just might go wrong (we did use explosion proof shields at every station when risks did get scary even to me) and put out students who had no patience for molecular diagrams and multistep syntheses and, certainly, no interests in becoming Ph.D. research chemists or chemical engineers, which is what did happen over a period of 20 years in a school district noted for its backwardness in a state second from the bottom in academic achievement. I realize it's probably too late and the times so different politically and internationally for rocket societies to allow for more than assembly by instruction, followed by a gratifying lift off, and hopefully a parachute pop out. I would never have re-entered the hobby if I thought this were the limit for where I can go with whatever time is left. Or could they? Actually it was the advent of APCP and Tripoli's fight to keep it available that caused me to at least have a look at what the field is doing now.
 
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Well said.
In todays "Sanitized Society", children will never experience the Joys of Flash Powder and doing Experiments that brought some of us great Joy as youngsters, without fear of reprisal from the Federal Government.
It's a shame, but those Days are long gone, and with them, a lot of Inspiration.
I too, have always been most interested in the Rockets that were for War rather than the ones to put People in Space.
 
Cecil- Welcome back sir! I won'r bore you with my early background, but chemistry sets and microscopes were a big part of my life starting around the age of 8. Everybody thought I was gonna be a Doctor, but I really wanted to be a chemist. Wound up as an aerospace engineer after screwing around with race cars for too long after high school. Got a job as an aircraft mechanic and went to school after work for engineering. You sound so much like one teacher I had in Britain that encouraged and helped supply me so I could present little chemistry 'magic' shows. It is chaps like you we are missing so much in today's world and I just wanted to thank you for your efforts in the past. I wish I could shake your hand in person because you may never know whose life and imagination you ignited. You , sir, are one of the true pioneers who made a difference, as unknown to you as that may be. Humble thanks, Cecil and welcome home.
 
TopRamen and fyrwrxz,

Thanks to both of you for your warm reception of what I imagine must be a heretic's view, certainly an antiquated one. I wish I could learn the views of those who enforce a regimen that seems to limit creativity to carpentry even while it encourages electronic sophistication; at least that part is moving in the right direction. Unfortunately, the later is hardly likely to direct young minds into rocket or engineering technology on the scale the West needs. Perhaps even the subject is out of place, and I have already said too much.
 
The toys I had when I was a kid were a whole lot more interesting than those of today. Things like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-A-C-G...821?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20e85f10dd

Later sets made after WWII had the chemicals in glass bottles with metal lids and were housed in metal cases. The pre-war sets had wood bottles and cases...but the wood didn't rust. I had a set from around 1954 and my late friend Monty had an older wooden set but with amber glass bottles. We used to trade materials and conduct unauthorized experiments. :duck: When we ran out of KNO3, my pop got us more from the local pharmacy. Ike was president and Werner Von Braun was on Walt Disney Presents every Sunday night. There was no CPSC or BATFE to torment the children and we had fun.
 
(..and I have already said too much)
No sir- you have not said enough! In today's society, party due to parent's abrogation of even minimum responsibility, the "No child left behind" mentality protects their sensitive ego and leaves them shortchanged on the realities of the world. We have graduated dyslexics from High School who never (and couldn't) read a book. Our acceptance of mediocracy has only moved the bell curve to the left and the 'safe' curriculum has curtailed the educators who can ignite and foster those who can 'get it'. If Johnnie can't read, why should those with superior skills be penalized? Don't get me wrong-this is not from some egalitarian perspective but realworld, real time personal observations and experiences. School Boards have had their hands tied and it's so much easier to read the lesson plan from the 'approved' list that it is to let some dynamic teacher push the students thru, not by force of will, but the sheer joy in any given subject they have dedicated themselves to. Capability and capacity not withstanding, most teachers are fettered by a boring lockstep program of education, almost by contract leading to bored students. It is people like you, Cecil, that remain in the minds and hearts of those who 'got it', that provided the electricity for the dynamo hum. We certainly need carpenters, auto mechanics and plumbers as well as astrophysicists, doctors and social workers. what is missing is not money but freedom of the imagination-to 'pass the fire' whether you teach woodshop, FrenchLit, chemistry, calculus or what ever. I have the warmest memories of a woodshop teacher, a history teacher and a biology teacher because they taught with verve and fire and passion. They were allowed to because they got results. Those are fewer today, the mavericks are, because in part, I guess there is an unspoken program of "No Teacher left behind" Just remember-50% of all Doctors finished in the lower half of their class....There- I said it..and I'm prolly on somebody's list because I used more than two syllable words...rant off
 
I get to do a couple of school demonstrations every year and I bring the bang, whoosh and big smoke cloud. The facts of science can be made to be VERY boring but you have to work at it and our schools have made a grand effort. The lack of answer to the big WHY question leaves the kids feeling lost. I bring the fun and excitement and try to answer the question of WHY in my presentation. I demonstrate gasses with an air cannon and fire marshmallows through a cardboard box, the states of matter with sugar rocket fuel (throw in a little Health education at that bit), Mass, drag, and conservation of energy. I end with a remote control launch of a couple of rockets. It is only an hour but kids stop me years later and are still excited to talk about it. Teachers have be regulated to the consistency of oatmeal. I try to deliver one or 2 hands on experiments each year to the local schools.

So call up your local school principal and find out what the science standards are for each grade and see if you can put together a hour long demonstration that illustrates some of those standards. The last 2 weeks of school are now filler because all the standards have to be covered before the "standardized testing" is done. They are HAPPY to have something educational to fill that time.
 
The toys I had when I was a kid were a whole lot more interesting than those of today. Things like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-A-C-G...821?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20e85f10dd

Later sets made after WWII had the chemicals in glass bottles with metal lids and were housed in metal cases. The pre-war sets had wood bottles and cases...but the wood didn't rust. I had a set from around 1954 and my late friend Monty had an older wooden set but with amber glass bottles. We used to trade materials and conduct unauthorized experiments. :duck: When we ran out of KNO3, my pop got us more from the local pharmacy. Ike was president and Werner Von Braun was on Walt Disney Presents every Sunday night. There was no CPSC or BATFE to torment the children and we had fun.

Your eBay item had sold and was removed before I got to see it, but I'm familiar with your description of how chemicals were packaged once upon a time. My first shipment of KNO3 was in a paper gray carton and its content was finely powered! USPS delivery. Yep, Ike was president and Von Braun was God. (Knew nothing about his SS involvement then.) We did have fun and we learned a lot and were inspired to learn more. I was really deflated yesterday when I introduced my 16 year-old grandnephew to the video posted by Phil Vukovich of his 2013 World Sugar Powered Rocket Record. The kid is handsome, an A student, math inclined, and a valuable member of his football team...but he had no interest in the video or the possibility he might make something like it himself. His dad and mom were enthralled, from which one concludes...
 
So call up your local school principal and find out what the science standards are for each grade and see if you can put together a hour long demonstration that illustrates some of those standards. The last 2 weeks of school are now filler because all the standards have to be covered before the "standardized testing" is done. They are HAPPY to have something educational to fill that time.[/QUOTE]

Admirable, and the kids do remember.
 
>> I guess there is an unspoken program of "No Teacher left behind" Just remember-50% of all Doctors finished in the lower half of their class....

This is worse: the average teacher in our state is from the first quartile of his college class. He does not have to major in the subject he will "teach." Actually, I don't think the children are the main problem; it was my experience that neither the teachers nor the administrators, with exceptions, had any significant mastery of their fields.
 
>> I guess there is an unspoken program of "No Teacher left behind" Just remember-50% of all Doctors finished in the lower half of their class....

This is worse: the average teacher in our state is from the first quartile of his college class. He does not have to major in the subject he will "teach." Actually, I don't think the children are the main problem; it was my experience that neither the teachers nor the administrators, with exceptions, had any significant mastery of their fields.

From 1991 through 1994 I occupied a seat on my local school board...quite an accomplishment for a high school dropout. Then as now, all teachers were hired "subject to assignment", meaning they could be placed anywhere there was a need for a warm body. I really didn't matter whether or not they actually knew the subject matter so long as they had "teaching credentials" as issued by the state of Texas and endorsed the superintendent's agenda without question. (It always helped if their spouse had a seat on the board.)

But we raise some damn fine football players here in the Lone Star State!
 
Glad you're here, welcome. As far as your observations-many people have far exceeded me in school demos, but I have done a few. The kids always seemed plenty excited, and a lot have asked where they could get rockets. Now, how long the excitement lasts, and the parents' feelings, I don't really know. But I doubt we would suddenly have kids and parents knocking down the doors of the NAR/Tripoli, if we told them they could also mix their own proplellant.

It's always been a small percantage who pursue rocketry in any form. Even in the "good old days." We are an anomaly.
 
It's always been a small percantage who pursue rocketry in any form. Even in the "good old days." We are an anomaly.

I have to say, this was true even 30 years ago. I've never known rocketry to be anything other than a relatively small hobby.

FC
 
I just read the above thread and agreed with most of it. I'm older than most writers; my rocketry projects started in the late '50's and continued through high school. I was isolated on a farm, didn't have transportation to club events, never met a fellow rocket enthusiast, but I did have open fields, an abandoned dairy barn which became my chemistry lab, and I could order anything through magazines as long as I had a parent's signature. (The latter was a cause of great anxiety as my chemical stockpiles were reduced. Fortunately, my mother, who was always solicitous about my health, never refused to sign because, as I learned decades later, she didn't want to thwart my enthusiasms as hers had been thwarted by the Great Depression.) Anyway, as warped as this may translate, what really interested me was not so much a rocket as a missile. I didn't just want altitude; I wanted range, so I never stuffed a parachute into a single rocket that I built from scratch. The engines were made of pressure laminated paper much like an Estee's motor tube now. I formulated my own propellants, experienced explosions on the static test stand I made from a coffee can covered with tracer paper rotating at a known rate to record the movements of a stylus. No felt pens available. I guess the point I'm getting at is that model rocketry, while it has saved some body parts, simply does not have enough testosterone in it to interest the average boy (and if not the boy, probably not the girls either). I used that realization as I created an organic chemistry course in a high school which met two hours every school day, covered most of the material of a first and second semester university course and required a lot of hard out-of-class study if the student were to receive any grade higher than a C. But the students who took the course planned on taking it years in advance. They endured CP chemistry, AP chemistry, and physics so they could finally qualify for that course. I think the main reason they wanted in is that I made sure they synthesized a few compounds of enticing interest: ethanol, fractionally distilled with a challenge to produce the highest purity of all the lab groups (determined by a gas chromatograph), at least one explosive, an amount that could be detonated on top of the lab bench and filmed for their future (source of great delight), flavorings, medicines, inverted stereo isomers and so on. Without that element in the course I'm convinced it would have died very quickly, but instead year by year PARENTS met to either provide funding or organize lobbying efforts aimed at administrators. I suppose I could have played it safe, never used vacuum distillation or any other technique that just might go wrong (we did use explosion proof shields at every station when risks did get scary even to me) and put out students who had no patience for molecular diagrams and multistep syntheses and, certainly, no interests in becoming Ph.D. research chemists or chemical engineers, which is what did happen over a period of 20 years in a school district noted for its backwardness in a state second from the bottom in academic achievement. I realize it's probably too late and the times so different politically and internationally for rocket societies to allow for more than assembly by instruction, followed by a gratifying lift off, and hopefully a parachute pop out. I would never have re-entered the hobby if I thought this were the limit for where I can go with whatever time is left. Or could they? Actually it was the advent of APCP and Tripoli's fight to keep it available that caused me to at least have a look at what the field is doing now.

Well said sir! I have to say, I got nudged back in by a relative a couple months ago. Now I have discovered composite motors. Learning the theory behind even model rocket engines is still exciting. But as I have said before, space is no longer cool or fascinating to this generation of iPods, XBoxes, Twitter and watered down education. I applaud your efforts!


Launching rockets (or missiles in my case) is so easy a chimp could do it. Read a step, do a step, eat a banana.

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