Rocket help.

Hello! This is my first post, and probably wont be my last(I've found my new facebook )
I'm not sure if my rocket would fall under the "high powered" or "mid powered" rocket. However, I wanted to launch a rocket about 2-3 miles up for my schools STEM showcasing.
I'm collaborating with a few other group members on taking co2 ratings through the atmosphere. They are going to do their OWN segment with a quadcopter, but I have had an interest in rockets and making fire and what not, so I figured to strap their altimeters and other gadgetry onto my rocket and blast it into space to get even more readings.

My problem is this, I know I want the design based off the simple but effective V2 rocket, however, I only have maybe less than 210$ budget as of now, and the time for completion is around NOV 17. Unfortunately I'm in Northern CA, so finding a good launch day during that month will be hell.

If anyone can point me to a good direction, that would be great!

My other ideas were a "pipe rocket" using Ethyl alcohol and liquid oxygen, but for my alloted time, that seems a bit far fetched.
If you lovely folks wouldn't mind giving some input, that would be great.


My hopeful height dimensions are 5 ft tall. 1 1/2 Feet in diameter. Probably no more than 25-30 LBS.

for reach 10-15k feet with a V2 of 20-30 pounds you need a motor way over your $ 210 budget and you need also a Lev 3 certification.

Area66 said:

for reach 10-15k feet with a V2 of 20-30 pounds you need a motor way over your $ 210 budget and you need also a Lev 3 certification.

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Well that answers that question, thank you for the insight on the levels of certification, that will definitely help me down the road!

What would be my options at this point? Would I still need certification to reach such an altitude?
What are the max levels I can do with out certification?

Yeah, you would need to cert to get enough motor to achieve those altitudes with that diameter of a rocket. Even then you blow your budget getting a complex package to 15k. Then there's the problems with getting your package back.

One thing, I think there's a loophole with the cert thing if it involves education. I don't know the laws or rules but I know there are university project exemptions. You see, these "certifications" are not law, they are rules. You can go outside the organization rules, get your own wavers from the FAA(good luck but it's been done), make your motors in the field to not run afoul of the law. I'm not talking sugar motors here, real APCP motors.

I'm just giving you options here, where you go with it is up to you

Find a local Tripoli or NAR L3 "mentor". His or her certifications will allow a group project as you suggest and stay within the law. Oh, please refrain from EVER using the term "pipe" anything. Thats NOT what we do here. Good luck, I hope someone steps up to help you out.

With respect to your ethyl alcohol/LOX rocket, you'd definitely need plenty of experience first and then some. Liquids are not permitted (except by special waiver) by either major rocketry organization and are pretty tricky to work with. LOX is really cold, and the propellants would either have to be stored at high pressures or use turbomachinery. Neither one one is particularly easy, and both would involve moving parts and good control. Fortunately, there are plenty of other high-reward, fun activities in rocketry that are not so dangerous and technically complex.

AdrianAghaie said:

I'm collaborating with a few other group members on taking co2 ratings through the atmosphere. They are going to do their OWN segment with a quadcopter, but I have had an interest in rockets and making fire and what not, so I figured to strap their altimeters and other gadgetry onto my rocket and blast it into space to get even more readings.

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Welcome Adrian,

As others have mentioned, you wont be putting a 25 lb rocket 2-3 miles high for $210. What you describe is an advanced rocketry project, and could cost upwards of $1000.

Jimzcatz mentioned finding a L3 mentor to assist you - which is a great idea !!! Even so - I think you may be hard pressed to push any kind of payload 2-3 miles high within your budget.

Based on your post where you mention "I have had an interest in rockets and making fire and what not" I would suggest building some rocket kits such as the Estes Pro Series II rockets, and joining a Rocket club in your area such as LUNAR .

You will have a lot of fun with the Estes kits, and the rocket club. You should have no trouble reaching 1/2 - 3/4 of a mile high with the Estes rockets built stock... and the help of a certified mentor.

For $210, you can get some good altitude. Not that high and not that heavy, but good altitude.

If you've got your heart set on a V2... you're in luck, as there are kits abound (to varying degrees of size, scale, and correctness). One of the smaller kits, with a 29mm MMT (and some ballast for CG/CP) will put you in flirting distance of 2,000, I'd think.


Good luck!


Later!

--Coop

I think I would approach this as a stepped project. The long pole in the tent is how big your payloads are. If you can fit them in a minimum diameter 38mm body tube and they don't weight more then a pound or so, you my be able to get close to the 2 mile goal.

First build the rocket and do a level one certification. Make one or two more flights using an altimeter and dual deployment.

Second make a level 2 flight. This may need to be with your actual payload, but using the same rocket and the same dual deployment, it should work.

One caveat, the budge would cover the rocket and the L2 cert flight, NOT the L1 flights. An altimeter, kit and L2 motor with case will be hard to get with $210.

BTW, a V2 is not a " simple but effective V2 rocket". The stability is usually marginal and the diameter is too large. There are a lot of simpler and higher performance rockets available.

I was going to mention the V2's poor stability, too. The WWII version used vanes in the exhaust for steering/guidance. Any model requires nose weight for stable flight. Nose weight means less altitude. Using a minimum diameter 38MM or 54MM rocket would get significantly more altitude. If you can build it light enough the recently reissued I65 motor might be an option. They are single use DMS with a cost of $70 at www.buyrocketmotors.com.

You really need to find someone in your area to talk to/work with and get some realistic ideas for how to handle your project. A local club is a great option.

Except for the time frame, (too late for this year, since they just did their launch.) this sounds like a perfect fit for an ARLISS project: https://www.arliss.org/

I will second (third?) finding a mentor to help with this project. Where in Northern CA are you located? If you are near the SF Bay Area feel free to come to one of LUNAR's club meetings, or one of our regular monthly low power launches held at Moffett Field. What you are trying to do is not impossible, but will be very difficult to achieve in 2 months without some guidance / mentoring. You can also reach out to the LUNAR board about your project via our website.

LUNAR has it's first High power launch of the season in Farmington CA on November 1st, assuming that the launch site is not so dry that there is a fire danger. The next launch probably wouldn't be until December. We have a 15k foot waiver there.

There are also some Tripoli prefectures that might be able to help as well: Take a look here: https://www.tripoli.org/Membership/PrefecturesClubs/USAPrefectures/tabid/257/Default.aspx
AERO-PAC, TCC and SARG are probably the closest - but I'm not sure of their launch schedules/field availabilty.

If your team-mates are also flying their instrumentation on a quad-copter, I can't imagine that you'd really need an 18in diameter rocket to fit the payload. A narrower diameter rocket is going to reach a higher altitude on a smaller (less expensive) motor. There's a reason altitude and speed junkies fly "minimum diameter" rockets.

Also - research and invest in a GPS or RDF beacon tracker. (Or find a mentor that will let you use theirs.)

I also highly recommend finding a mentor and attending an organized "legal" club launch. Here in California it is far more restricted to launch rockets. You cannot just launch a rocket in your backyard or park like most folks across the country can. You have to follow a few more restrictions. First, you must have the property owners permission and a permit from the local fire authority. Then you are limited to Model Rocket Motor that are officially classified my the Office of the State Fire Marshal. Then if all this is met, you can only fly up to 500grams (~1.1lbs) which is our limit for "Model Rocketry". To fly above this weight and to fly motors classified a "High Power", you then need someone with a Cal/Pyrotechnics license, proper motor level certification & age restrictions, FAA Waivers etc... find a club! Luckily there are a few up near SF. Best thing too, is at most of these High Power launches, there are usually vendors selling just about everything you need and the clubs have all the launch equipment!

If your classmates are flying a quad copter, you can blow them away sending your 3-5 pound rocket 2500-5000' on that budget, easy!

Jerome

But I don't know how much of this info makes any sense to you......so please DO ask lots of questions about anything, there are some quirks that come along with our hobby to keep it legal (and keep all the govt-types happy). Last but not least, remember that you can ask qstns using a "PM" or personal message if you don't want to put it out online.

This is one of the sets of good advice:

Handeman said:

I think I would approach this as a stepped project. The long pole in the tent is how big your payloads are. If you can fit them in a minimum diameter 38mm body tube and they don't weight more then a pound or so, you my be able to get close to the 2 mile goal.

First build the rocket and do a level one certification. Make one or two more flights using an altimeter and dual deployment.

Second make a level 2 flight. This may need to be with your actual payload, but using the same rocket and the same dual deployment, it should work.

One caveat, the budge would cover the rocket and the L2 cert flight, NOT the L1 flights. An altimeter, kit and L2 motor with case will be hard to get with $210.

BTW, a V2 is not a " simple but effective V2 rocket". The stability is usually marginal and the diameter is too large. There are a lot of simpler and higher performance rockets available.

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I think that to accomplish what you posted originally, in the time frame you posted, you would have to turn this pursuit into a full-time job. Even then, you might not make it on time. Building liquid motors is beyond 99% of what we do here so you're not going to get much advice on that subject. Building solid motors is, in actual practice, significantly more difficult than what you see posted on youtube (at least, building reliable, safe, high-performance motors, which are the kind you will need). There are enough commercially available motor choices for you to skip that part (for now) and get your payload up there.

A reasonable goal might be to get a one-pound load to a mile, maybe two. It would be best if the payload could be kept SMALL in cross-section, maybe small enough to fit inside a three or four inch airframe tube.

And you may want to try to build the payload inexpensively, in such a way as to minimize crying if it is lost, or if there is a flight mishap.

I want to second the idea of finding or having a NAR mentor to advise you. Also, as a starting point, you might pick up a copy of the Handbook of Amateur Rocketry by Harry Stine. Copies are available on ebay, amazon and in your local library.

As a side note, many adult, invested sport rocketeers never break the mile-high mark, and very few never get to two miles (10, 560 feet). It is very expensive, takes years of experience, and there are limited places around the country where you can do that legally and safely. Even if you had a $2500 budget, it is not easy to get a rocket up 10,000 feet and recover it.

Not only do you need the rocket, motor casing and motor, but you need a high-power launch pad, 12V (at least) launch controller, recovery electronics, parachute, tracking system (it may land miles away), and as others have said, an FAA waiver.

Start small, learn, grow, and have fun! Put your mind to it, and you'll get there some day.

Bat-mite said:

As a side note, many adult, invested sport rocketeers never break the mile-high mark, and very few never get to two miles (10, 560 feet). It is very expensive, takes years of experience, and there are limited places around the country where you can do that legally and safely. Even if you had a $2500 budget, it is not easy to get a rocket up 10,000 feet and recover it.

Not only do you need the rocket, motor casing and motor, but you need a high-power launch pad, 12V (at least) launch controller, recovery electronics, parachute, tracking system (it may land miles away), and as others have said, an FAA waiver.

Start small, learn, grow, and have fun! Put your mind to it, and you'll get there some day.

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Things like needing ground support/launch equipment, a suitable launch site, and FAA waiver can be mitigated by finding a mentor and club willing to help support your effort.