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The Blue Origin RD-180 replacement (BE-4) for the Atlas V will apparently use LNG/LOX instead of the RP-1/LOX of the RD-180 meaning that they'll need a tank redesign on the Atlas V to use it! I'd say forget about a 2017 man-rated Atlas V. The LNG/LOX route has a very slightly higher Isp, so with that and perhaps a lighter weight design maybe making up for an open-cycle instead of an RD-180 closed-cycle design, assuming the BE-4 is the usual open-cycle design.



Comparative Study of Kerosene and Methane Propellant Engines
for Reusable Liquid Booster Stages

https://www.dlr.de/Portaldata/55/Resources/dokumente/sart/0095-0212prop.pdf

Atlas V
Engines 1 RD-180 (2 nozzles)
Thrust 4,152 kN (933,406 lbf)

From the Blue Origin web page:

"The ULA/Blue Origin agreement allows for a four-year development process with full-scale testing in 2016 and first flight in 2019. The BE-4 will be available for use by ULA and Blue Origin for both companies’ next generation launch systems.

The BE-4 is a liquid oxygen, liquefied natural gas (LNG) rocket engine that delivers 550,000-lbf of thrust at sea level. Two BE-4s will power each ULA booster, providing 1,100,000-lbf thrust at liftoff. ULA is investing in the engineering and development of the BE-4 to enable availability for national security, civil, human and commercial missions. Development of the BE-4 engine has been underway for three years and testing of BE-4 components is ongoing at Blue Origin’s test facilities in West Texas. Blue Origin recently commissioned a new large test facility for the BE-4 to support full engine testing."


The close thrust match for the RD-180 makes me think they might have been anticipating a return of the cold war and the need to replace it. Frankly, who didn't expect a return to a cold war? It's too profitable and the boogie men in caves thing was starting to wear off.

Hmmm... learn something new every day.

I guess they figure Blue Origin will be cheaper than PWR... and they're probably right. OTOH, maybe PWR has been looking long and hard at building copies of the RD-180 and found some "show stopper" that will make it impractical for them to do so. Given the complicated nature of a closed-cycle engine like RD-180, and the unique metallurgy that allows the LOX-rich combustion, and the costs associated with not just cloning the design, but building the TOOLING necessary to make the components and the PROCESSES necessary to put it all together into a working, certifiable engine, well, it may have proved a bridge too far, if not technologically, then probably almost certainly from a cost standpoint.

A reapportionment of the propellant tanks of Atlas V wouldn't be THAT difficult. Simply do a tank stretch on the LNG tank as necessary to hold the proper amount of propellant for the size of the LOX tank. Tank stretches on rockets are pretty straightforward and have been done for decades. However, there's a MUCH better alternative...

Retire the Atlas V, and go to the Atlas V Phase 2 proposal. In short, Atlas V Phase 2 was proposed as a potential successor to increase capability for the VSE, back when O'keefe and Steidle were in charge of NASA and planned a "spiral development" program to fulfill the requirements of the VSE and replace the shuttle when it was retired. Basically, Atlas V Phase 2 would dump the 3.8 meter (IIRC from memory) core of the Atlas V, and build a new core on the larger 5.5 meter (IIRC from memory) Delta IV tooling, reapportioned for the propellant volumes of LOX/RP-1, and powered by a PAIR of RD-180's. This would make a vehicle roughly analogous to the Saturn "C-3" vehicle (which would have been powered by a pair of F-1 engines) or the "Jarvis" launch vehicle proposal of the immediate post-Challenger time period... (ET diameter tank holding LOX/RP-1 feeding a pair of F-1's on the first stage, lofting an ET diameter second stage powered by a single J-2S). Since you're switching to LOX/LNG, design the core to be powered by FOUR of these Blue Origin engines, with the Delta-IV size tooling. Basically, the tooling and lines producing EELV's have been underutilized all along, because the demand for the EELV's didn't materialize... The EELV's were designed with a production capability of about 45 cores per year IIRC, and of course NEITHER of the two vehicles fly anything like that often. Then there's the additional costs of producing TWO vehicles, BOTH of which are underutilized, and all that extra capacity costs money that has gone to waste. The low flight rates of BOTH vehicles also increases costs per launch because the support infrastructure is spread over fewer actual vehicles, increasing the cost per vehicle to support that overhead and infrastructure. Having two different vehicles also doubles the costs, since now you have TWO sets of overhead and infrastructure support programs to pay for instead of one. The only thing all that inefficiency buys you is redundancy, which isn't a bad thing... but is it worth the cost??

It made sense to do it that way when the EELV's were approved and designed back in the 90's, but that was then, this is now. Now we have alternative "backup" vehicles in case some flaw or launch vehicle failure is exposed that grounds the fleet for awhile until it's fixed, which wasn't really the case in the early 90's (back when for most national security launches, your only choice was shuttle or Titan IV in most cases). Now we have Falcon 9, which the AF is loathe to approve and is foot-dragging and being as obstructionist as possible to approving Falcon 9 for military launches, due to the fact that they really don't want the competition with their own vehicles, the EELV's.

The "Atlas V Phase 2.2" (since this would be different than the original Atlas V Phase 2, since it would use LO2/CNG for propellants instead of LO2/RP-1) would be built on the same line and tooling as the Delta IV, allowing for increased utilization of the overhead and infrastructure to build Delta IV, lowering costs. It would allow the retirement of the smaller Atlas V tooling and line, reducing the programmatic costs of maintaining the capability to produce both the smaller and larger core diameters. Basically you'd still have redundancy, since the propulsion systems of the Delta IV, powered by liquid hydrogen burning RS-68's, and the LNG burning Blue Origin engines, would be very different... the only thing the two vehicles would really share is tank diameters and tooling to produced the tanks (their lengths would be different due to the density/volume requirements of the different propellants, and the different mixture ratios of LO2/LH2 burning in an RS-68, and LO2/CNG burning in the Blue Origin engines.

Since they specifically mentioned something about replacing the engines on Delta IV at some point, it really sounds like this is their intention eventually... it makes a lot of sense. Delta IV tankage with Atlas V (Blue Origin) engines...

It would allow you to continue to use the Delta IV Heavy infrastructure (including the common core "heavy" configuration, with some modifications). Modifications to the pad and infrastructure to accomodate LNG either alongside or in place of LH2 shouldn't be too difficult. LNG is cryogenic, but not as deep a cryogen as LH2 is.

LNG/LOX isn't going to have the ISP of LH2/LOX, BUT, RS-68 isn't maximizing LH2 ISP anyway, and basically LH2 is a pretty lousy first stage propellant anyway. LNG has a lot of advantages, more similar to kerosene than LH2, but with a little better ISP than kerosene, even if it is a little harder to store and handle than kerosene (but still easier than liquid hydrogen). It's a pretty good tradeoff when you think about it.

Makes a lot of sense when you look at it...

Later! OL JR :)
 
You have to think that any methane engine is pretty forward thinking since methane can be produced in situ for Mars missions. Developing methane engines for EELV is pretty much free R&D for later, more ambitious missions.

Also, I've seen PWR pop up quite a few times in the past few days around TRF and just want to clarify that they no longer exist. Pratt sold Rocketdyne to Aerojet a last summer, so now we have Aerojet-Rocketdyne.
 
I think you are missing an important point. The Atlas V uses the RD-180 because it was a developed, flight-tested and in production engine, and the procurement costs were known and they could simply be purchased. No time delay, no development costs, no tooling costs. The SpaceX and Boeing programs are supposed to be a Commercial Transportation Program and as such assumes that the major components are, or can readily be transitioned, into commercial production as the bulk of the program funding is for manned capsule development, not booster development.

I'm sure that LOX/Kerosene would be the preferred propellant due to simplicity and low cost, but because AFAIK there are no American made LOX/HC motors of comparable performance to the RD-180 that you can go to the store and buy, so it isn't an option. We know little about Blue Horizon as it is a privately held company and they do not have to disclose what they are doing to the general public, but if Blue Horizon has been developing a LOX/CH4 engine in the same performance class as the RD-180, it is the only logical source of a nearly mature or developed LOX/HC engine, as they have been paid the development costs, they have the tooling and production line, and have static tested and perhaps flight tested it. That make BH the only near term solution as a source for an American LOX/HC engine. Here's the performance trade-off. https://www.dlr.de/Portaldata/55/Resources/dokumente/sart/0095-0212prop.pdf

Modification of an Atlas or Delta rocket to use LOX/CH4 propellant is simple. In the Atlas, the CH4 fuel tank simply needs to be insulated the same as a LOX tank, and lengthened to increase the volume by about 25% to account for the reduce fuel density. The ISP of LOX/CH4 is 10 seconds better than LOX/Kerosene so you save some propellant weight. In the Delta, the CH4 propellant tank could use the same insulation as the LH2, and both tank volumes need to be increased to account for the ISP decrease with LOX/CH4 compared to LOC/LH2. More work and expense than an Atlas conversion, but not much more design and test expenditures would be required. The Atlas pad infrastructure however needs to be modified to accommodate as cryogenic fuel whereas a Delta pad could use the LH2 fueling system with little or no modification however the pad might require strengthening as the lift-off weight will increase by about 25-30% due to the added fuel and structure.

Bob
 
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I don't think Atlas V is the end goal here... https://twitter.com/ulalaunch/status/512294258389577728

BE-4 is ORSC (oxygen-rich staged combustion) just like the RD-180, so it is a closed-cycle engine. https://d1ljm9hc65qhyd.cloudfront.net/press-releases/2014-09-17/BE-4-Fact-Sheet.pdf
Thanks for both of those. VERY interesting, both the tech details on the BE-4 and, especially, the ULA twitter response when someone asked what I was commenting on, about the Atlas V mods to use LNG/LOX asuming BE-4 use in it: "We plan to select our next generation launch system by the end of the year and will then be in a position to share more." So, the plan is a new rocket to use the BE-4s, not to use them in the Atlas V which they claim to have a 2-year supply of RD-180s for anyway. Could be that two years from now the Russians won't follow through on the threat to cut off RD-180 supplies, too.
 
You have to think that any methane engine is pretty forward thinking since methane can be produced in situ for Mars missions. Developing methane engines for EELV is pretty much free R&D for later, more ambitious missions.
Yes, but I suspect H2/O2 production would be even easier given any H2O ice source on Mars which they'd probably make a point of landing on for colony support and present/past life searches or from the ice in the permanently shaded areas of polar lunar craters.
 
Again interesting but COTS (Commercial Orbital Transport System) has absolutely nothing to do with going to Mars! Going to Mars is a totally different program with totally different LVs. Both NASA and Congress even agree on this point.

Bob
 
Yes, but I suspect H2/O2 production would be even easier given any H2O ice source on Mars which they'd probably make a point of landing on for colony support and present/past life searches or from the ice in the permanently shaded areas of polar lunar craters.

The only downfall I see with LOX/LH2 is that LH2 is really cold and could take quite a bit of energy (and valuable water resources) to make. I don't know though--I just design the engines.
 
Again interesting but COTS (Commercial Orbital Transport System) has absolutely nothing to do with going to Mars! Going to Mars is a totally different program with totally different LVs. Both NASA and Congress even agree on this point.

Bob

Agreed, but that doesn't mean BO (and SpaceX) don't want to. And if they can be paid to develop an engine/technology that serves multiple purposes, that seems like a pretty good business plan.
 
Yes, but I suspect H2/O2 production would be even easier given any H2O ice source on Mars which they'd probably make a point of landing on for colony support and present/past life searches or from the ice in the permanently shaded areas of polar lunar craters.

Not as much as you might think at first blush... Making methane from the Sabatier process is very straightforward... Bring a tank of hydrogen about 25% (iirc) the volume of methane you need from earth and then open a valve to the martian atmosphere and pump mars air into the reaction chamber... Its mostly carbon dioxide ready to react... And we KNOW the mars atmosphere is available EVERYWHERE on mars as simply as opening a valve.... Mars water on the other hand.... We know very little about its location, quantity, it requires extraction methods such as drilling or melting or evaporation and condensation or other such unproven techniques in situ, which requires extra equipment and operations to work with no guarantees. Plus once you have water you STILL have to electrolyze it into H2 and O2 And then compress and cool it into LH2 and LO2.... And that's a power intensive operation.... And considering that sunlight only produces about half the electricity in solar panels as it does on earth (due to the additional distance from the sun compared to earth) that means you either have to have twice as much solar cells to generate the power necessary, or have a nuclear power source to split your hydrogen and oxygen from water....

Later! OL JR
 
The only downfall I see with LOX/LH2 is that LH2 is really cold and could take quite a bit of energy (and valuable water resources) to make. I don't know though--I just design the engines.

Another good point... Insulating an LH2 tank immersed in a planetary atmosphere is a LOT harder than Insulating one in the vacuum of space...

Basically ANY long term storage and transport of LH2 in space is going to require the development of anti-boiloff technologies to make it work... And if you have that you're 90% of the way to a propellant depot system anyway, which basically negates the need for a super expensive heavy launch very hicle anyway....

Guess which NASA is spending $36 billion bucks to develop though...

Another reason were not going to mars anytime soon...

Later! OL JR
 
Another advantage of methane is the increased total impulse. Converting hydrogen to methane will yield significantly more propellant for a comparably modest reduction in Isp.

Some rough estimations (based on vacuum Isp numbers and ignoring the fact that real engines are non-stoichiometric)

Starting with 1kg of water one can get
1kg H20 => 1kg LH2/LOX => 4461Ns
1kg H20 + 1,22kg CO2 => 2,22kg CH4/LOX => 8033Ns

Starting with 1kg of hydrogen one can get
1kg H2 + 11kg CO2 => 9kg LH2/LOX (+ 3kg waste C) => 40158Ns
1kg H2 + 25kg CO2 => 20kg CH4/LOX (+ 6kg waste C) => 72240Ns

Taking advantage of the abundant martian CO2 will increase the output of a given amount of (presumably rare) hydrogen or water by roughly 80%.

Reinhard
 
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