Why the NK33 and RD180 Russian rocket engines surpass anything the West had/has?

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cecil

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In case I'm not the only person who missed just exactly how the Russians in the '70's produced a liquid fuel engine with higher efficiency than anything developed in the West as of the early 2000's (?), this is good material in spite of rather low video quality: [video=youtube;MZnYr94aa9E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZnYr94aa9E[/video]

Does anyone know whether Elon Musk has incorporated the new design into his engines?
 
They had some metallurgy that lets them run oxygen rich, which gives slightly higher ISP for RP1 based rockets. (This is because oxygen is lighter than kerosene; hydrogen oxygen engines are more efficient when there is extra hydrogen.)

Musk is relying on a high thrust to weight ratio (highest ever) for overall vehicle mass fraction improvements, and reusability for cost savings, in order to deliver the most cost effective product (which is not necessarily the highest absolute performance).
 
They might have been more efficient, but they couldn't produce anything on the scale of the F1, resorting to multiple chambers with complex plumbing which never worked reliably.
 
The pre-burner turbine which generates all of the power for the turbopumps on the NK-33 flows all of the liquid oxygen through it, with a small amount of fuel added to the stream to combust to provide the power. This makes it a full-flow oxygen rich staged combustion system. This is advantageous since the much colder and large quantity of liquid oxygen flowing through keeps the temperature of the whole system operating much lower, improving reliability and giving more headroom for getting higher performance out of the system.

The oxygen rich system was considered practically impossible by the west; or at least too difficult to be worth pursuing until the fall of the iron curtain in the 90's and we found out the Russians had been doing it for decades. :facepalm: Reason why it was thought to be pretty much impossible is the liquid oxygen being oxygen, tended to be a rather strong oxidizer. So the heated extremely oxygen rich exhaust out of the preburner tended to corrode/combust everything else downstream in the system; bearings, turbine blades, plumbing, etc. Consequently they tend to explode with very little warning if you did anything wrong in your design, as it's inherently much more touchy compared to using the kerosene (kerosene doesn't react with everything). So you tend to blow up a lot of test engines/ test stands before you manage to get it right. Of which they certainly blew up a lot of engines getting the technology right. But as a result they managed to get the highest performance kerosene/oxygen rocket engines ever created.
 
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In case I'm not the only person who missed just exactly how the Russians in the '70's produced a liquid fuel engine with higher efficiency than anything developed in the West as of the early 2000's

The SSME's were absurdly more efficient than the RD-180 or the NK-33, if you go by Isp. Then again, the SSME's ran LOX/LH2, which is about as good as it gets for chemical propulsion. The RD-180 and NK-33 are LOX/RP-1 engines. Their Isp is among the highest for that propellant combo since it runs a staged combustion cycle. US LOX/RP-1 engines tend to run the less efficient (by Isp), but lighter and easier gas generator cycle. Consequently, the gas generator cycle is what you saw on the F-1 engine and what you see in SpaceX's Merlin family of engines.

SpaceX is pursuing a staged combustion cycle for the Raptor engine, but it will run on LOX/CH4, so comparing its Isp will be another apples and oranges case.
 
They might have been more efficient, but they couldn't produce anything on the scale of the F1, resorting to multiple chambers with complex plumbing which never worked reliably.
What! The Russian never stopped developing LOX/Kerosene motors like the US did. They are several decades ahead of the US in liquid motor design.... And that's why the US purchases them....

The RD-170 series 4 chamber motors are more powerful than the F1, and are reusable. They are cheaper and simpler also so they don't bother. https://www.astronautix.com/engines/rd170.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-170 For comparison, the Shuttle SSME was one of the worst liquid motors every built. It was supposed to be reusable for 5 launches but in reality needed to be totally rebuilt after each flight. The cavitation erosion loss in the turbopumps made them borderline disasters. This was also one of the most expensive liquid motors ever built and put into production.

The RD-180 is a two chamber variant of the RD-170 series used on the Atlas 5 and Sea Launch..... https://www.astronautix.com/engines/rd180.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-180

The RD-191 is a single chamber variant of the RD-170 series .....

https://www.astronautix.com/engines/rd191.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-191

Bob
 
What! The Russian never stopped developing LOX/Kerosene motors like the US did.

I.e. industry and government focus on one particular system. And stick to it. That is the most important contributor to their success, IMHO.

Jeroen.
 
This is very interesting. I've wondered why these engines were being used in US rockets... That answers a lot of questions. Interesting info on the SSMEs, Bob. I knew they had time-delaying issues early on during R&D but never realized they had to be refurbished to the point of being rebuilt for each flight. Why is SLS using these? Because reusability won't be factor?
 
They might have been more efficient, but they couldn't produce anything on the scale of the F1, resorting to multiple chambers with complex plumbing which never worked reliably.

So why are we buying the Russian engines? "The engine has been used successfully 51 times on Atlas 3 and Atlas 5 missions since 2000" and " Defense Department estimates that losing the contract for Russian RD-180 engines would cost up to US $5 billion." https://rt.com/usa/160932-russian-engines-space-us/
 
The pre-burner turbine which generates all of the power for the turbopumps on the NK-33 flows all of the liquid oxygen through it, with a small amount of fuel added to the stream to combust to provide the power. This makes it a full-flow oxygen rich staged combustion system. This is advantageous since the much colder and large quantity of liquid oxygen flowing through keeps the temperature of the whole system operating much lower, improving reliability and giving more headroom for getting higher performance out of the system.

Yes, this is an elegant solution to drain off of energy from the turbine that powers the pumps for O2 and fuel. Another important part of the solution is mentioned by CarVac: they developed better alloys than our own.
 
Yes, this is an elegant solution to drain off of energy from the turbine that powers the pumps for O2 and fuel. Another important part of the solution is mentioned by CarVac: they developed better alloys than our own.

Xrain's point is not a matter of draining energy.

Liquid oxygen is a lot colder than kerosene, so you can keep the chamber from melting even if you run the combustion temperature higher. Higher temperature = higher performance.
 
Xrain's point is not a matter of draining energy.

Liquid oxygen is a lot colder than kerosene, so you can keep the chamber from melting even if you run the combustion temperature higher. Higher temperature = higher performance.

Regardless of the mechanism, whatever limits the transformation of stored energy into work is a "drain."
 
Regardless of the mechanism, whatever limits the transformation of stored energy into work is a "drain."

I don't agree. A drain would be a gas-generator cycle which literally spits fuel overboard after going through the turbine. This just lets you run more favorable combustion conditions.
 
And for anybody wondering about why ox rich staged combustion is nice, run the power balance calcs for LOX/RP engines with a fuel rich cycle, and the power balance calcs for an ox rich cycle.

You'll notice that the ratio of the power that can be transmitted is suspiciously close to 2.35:1-ish.

Discuss.
 
I don't agree. A drain would be a gas-generator cycle which literally spits fuel overboard after going through the turbine. This just lets you run more favorable combustion conditions.

Did you watch the film?
 
I.e. industry and government focus on one particular system. And stick to it. That is the most important contributor to their success, IMHO.

Jeroen.

But the Russians experimented with a little bit of EVERYTHING... staged combustion, high pressure engines, LOX-rich, large hypergolics, etc. They developed engines when there wasn't a clear end-use in mind, just to get the experience and know how, and see if it could be useful.

There were two areas where the US really had them beat in the 60's and 70's... solid propellants and liquid hydrogen engine technology. The first Soviet ICBM to use solid propellants, the SS-13 Savage, had a lot of problems and wasn't particularly powerful... it didn't remain in their inventory for anywhere near as long as some of their other missiles. That's one reason why the Soviets continued to develop large advanced hypergolic storable propellant engines and missiles for a long time, whereas the US basically abandoned that propulsion system after the Titan II, focusing solely on solid propellants for ICBM's and SLBM's. The Soviets, on the other hand, really didn't get proficient and start introducing a lot of solid propellant ICBM's and SLBM's until the mid-late 80's and onward.

By the same token, their lack of proficiency with liquid hydrogen and the difficulties of containing and taming that particular beast was one of the reasons why they didn't succeed with their lunar program. N-1 relied on a five-stage monstrosity to deliver a minimal lunar payload only HALF the mass of the Apollo system to the Moon and return it to Earth, despite the N-1's massive size being half again the weight and thrust of the Saturn V. The first two stages were kerosene/LOX powered, the upper three powered by relatively inefficient (in terms of theoretically possible ISP) hypergolic propellants. The Saturn V, on the other hand, used a kerosene first stage for pure raw thrust to get the vehicle off the ground and out of the atmosphere (a role for which kerosene is IDEALLY suited, since it's theoretical ISP is lower than hydrogen/oxygen, which has the highest theoretical ISP of any chemical propellants, save hydrogen/fluorine, IIRC, and perhaps some exotic tri-propellants. Fluorine is something which has been experimented with and is just SO toxic and difficult to handle, and such a risk in the massive quantities required as a rocket propellant, that it's basically not worth the effort and risk...), then followed up with a large highly efficient liquid hydrogen powered second stage to get the vehicle nearly to orbit, and a highly efficient third stage powered by liquid hydrogen to complete the ascent to orbit and then propel the spacecraft stack through escape velocity. IOW, it was simply THE most efficient way of doing it. Still true today.

Sticking with one system is "okay", if it's the RIGHT system. Sticking with "only one" sure cuts out your options, though... and there's no reason for it, basically. The basics are well understood at this point in time... we have 50 years of experience and hindsight-- it's not like it was in the 50's and early 60's when EVERYTHING was basically brand-new...

Later! OL JR :)
 
This is very interesting. I've wondered why these engines were being used in US rockets... That answers a lot of questions. Interesting info on the SSMEs, Bob. I knew they had time-delaying issues early on during R&D but never realized they had to be refurbished to the point of being rebuilt for each flight. Why is SLS using these? Because reusability won't be factor?

Because RS-68's, being ablatively cooled versus regeneratively cooled like SSME, will melt down when operated in a large cluster and flanked by highly heat-radiative solid rocket exhaust (which contains large amounts of molten alumina slag, white hot, radiating massive amounts of heat onto the engines, preventing them from radiating their own heat away properly... this was discovered during the studies of the operating conditions under the Ares V, and which is why the higher thrust but lower efficiency RS-68's were scratched from the design and SSME's adopted in their place.

In addition, the US has a pretty decent supply of leftover SSME's, (including the ones removed from the shuttle orbiters upon their retirement-- they were replaced by "simulations") and they can be used for the test flight and early phases of SLS. Correct, that they will not be reused. NOTHING on SLS will be reused, including the SRB's, which will crash into the ocean and sink on every flight.

Problem is, SSME is a VERY expensive engine. They were never designed for mass production. The shuttle-designed SSME's (RS-25D's) were designed to be reused, with lots of inspection ports, instrumentation, and features designed in to make them easier to inspect, repair, rebuild, and replace. These features make them expensive and are TOTALLY unnecessary on the SLS, since they'll be disposed of after each flight. Therefore the plan is to redesign the SSME's into RS-25E's, which will dispense with the reuse provisions and supposedly make the engine much cheaper. That remains to be seen, of course. Right now an SSME costs about double to triple the cost of an engine designed for disposal after a single use, like RS-68. It'll be interesting to see how much they can actually bring the cost of that engine down. A high pressure, staged combustion engine as complex as SSME is ALWAYS going to be an expensive engine, period. That's why SpaceX went for the safer, simpler, less expensive and better understood and more benign operating conditions required for a gas-generator engine, in their Merlin engine line. Of course a gas generator design will never be as efficient as a staged combustion cycle design like SSME or RD-180, regardless of propellant type (kerosene versus liquid hydrogen).

Once the shuttles landed, the SSME's were removed and transported to California (IIRC) and completely stripped down and basically rebuilt from the ground up. The rebuilt engines were then transported to the Stennis Space Center in southern Mississippi (just north of New Orleans) to be test fired for safety certification. Then the engines were shipped back to the Cape for installation on an orbiter being prepared for flight. The SSME's original design spec was that they were to be reusable for 25 flights IIRC, with five flights between basically any touch maintenance, IIRC... in reality, the SSME was SO close to the bleeding edge of what was possible and SO complex and operated SO close to the failure point, it was found that basically a complete rebuild was required after every flight. Turbine blade cracking, stress fractures, erosion, all sorts of problems were found in SSME's after flight... for a long while at the beginning of the Challenger investigation, it was believed that a SSME explosion had destroyed the vehicle, not a "relatively simple" SRB from a failed joint.

The main reason that the Russian engines are being used in US rockets is that their CHEAP and available. The engines are cheap because the Soviets invested all the money into designing and testing them and working the bugs out, and a lot of them are in fact reconditioned surplus, some of which have been stored since the early 70's... The cheap Russian labor allows them to be built for costs that US-made engines simply can't compete with... the DOD agreement allowing the use of RD-180's on Atlas V for national security launches requires that PWR (Pratt and Whitney/Rocketdyne) maintain a surplus sufficient to continue national security launches uninterrupted until a US-made version can be put into production. OF course, the cost of such a US version would be several times that of the Russian-built version, simply due to manufacturing costs and labor costs and overhead here in the US versus Russia. Whether the US capability to build them would even work, well, that certainly is a subject for consideration anyway...

Later! OL JR :)
 
So why are we buying the Russian engines? "The engine has been used successfully 51 times on Atlas 3 and Atlas 5 missions since 2000" and " Defense Department estimates that losing the contract for Russian RD-180 engines would cost up to US $5 billion." https://rt.com/usa/160932-russian-engines-space-us/


That's a good question. They are in fact much higher ISP (measure of fuel efficiency) than large US gas-generator engines like the F-1. Of course that comes at the expense of complexity and operating near the bleeding edge of failure. The Russian high pressure staged-combustion oxygen-rich engines like RD-180 are highly efficient, meaning they get more work out of a given amount of propellant than a less efficient engine would (meaning the rocket can be smaller overall for a given size payload capability than one requiring more fuel to do the same work using a less fuel-efficient engine like a lower pressure gas-generator design). The main reason though is simple-- price. The engines from Russia are cheaper than a US built engine would be, even a "simple" gas generator type. Also, a smaller rocket=cheaper rocket, therefore the more complex engine is rosy from that point of view too.

On the other hand, a lot of those advantages become less important if you start looking at having to build them domestically. The cheap price would DEFINITELY go away, and gearing up the tooling and know-how to build a US built version would NOT be cheap-- hence the $5 billion dollar price tag quoted above.

What's sad is that we SHOULD be developing these sorts of engines here, on our own, not funding a foreign power to do it... F-1 had a detailed and thorough "keep alive" program when it was shut down at the end of Apollo, where the technical information and a number of engines were actually stored carefully for possible revival of the engine at some point in time. F-1 has NEARLY been revived several times, including for the "Jarvis" space launcher proposed by Hughes after the Challenger disaster, using a pair of them for first stage propulsion on a shuttle ET-sized first stage, and a single J-2S for propulsion on an ET-diameter second stage, with a third "kick stage" for geosynchronous launches. Various proposals since then have also used F-1 at various times, and some work has been done, then stopped. Currently, Dynetics is working on reviving F-1 for their Pyrios LRB proposal for the advanced SLS booster competition. They've done some live fire tests of the turbopump gas generator and stuff, and redesigned the F-1, which was very complex for its day, into an engine with about 1/100th the parts count (lowering costs and reducing complexity), much simpler and more automated construction and assembly (lowering costs), and increasing the performance. They've switched to a channel wall nozzle design, much simpler and easier to fabricate than the old brazed steel tubular nozzle and combustion chamber design of the original F-1, with its thousands of hand-laid tubes brazed in one of the worlds largest autoclaves. They also did away with the film cooled nozzle extension of the original F-1, redesigning the complex turbopump exhaust manifold into a simple straight pipe, dumping the turbopump exhaust overboard at the exit plane of the engine nozzle (which is how it was done on early engines and rockets like Atlas, and the early Saturn I's using H-1 engines).

IMHO they'd do better to simply pay Dynetics to complete the F-1B and concurrently modify the Atlas V to use it instead, rather than trying to duplicate the RD-180 here. A barrel stretch of an existing rocket to contain extra propellant load is not a difficult thing to do, and an Atlas V phase 2 rocket using a pair of F-1B's and a core built on the larger Delta IV tooling, reapportioned for the different quantities of LOX and kerosene needed versus LOX/LH2 burned in the gas-generator RS-68's of Delta IV, would be an AWESOME space launcher (both for the AF AND NASA...)

Of course that makes too much sense so it won't happen... shame.

As for the quoted statement about Russian engines "not being reliable due to all the multiple chambers and complex plumbing"... that's UTTER HOGWASH. Completely nonsensical. During the mid-80's when we were struggling to get even 9 shuttle missions a year off the ground (highest number in a single year shuttle ever achieved IIRC), the Russians were launching Soyuz rockets (both manned and unmanned, each with 20 chambers in five main engines, and a four verniers on each core and a pair on each booster for directional control, so 32 chambers in all) with high regularity-- combined with other launchers they were using (Proton, etc) they were basically launching around 50 flights a year of all types... that's about ONE PER WEEK. The US has NEVER come close to this launch rate (this was the mid-80's, after all.) The Soviet Energia rocket used four advanced complex but non-reusable liquid hydrogen engines on the core (single chamber) and four strap-on kerosene fueled boosters (Zenits) each with a four-chambered LOX-rich, high pressure, staged combustion RD-170 powering it, for a total of 20 chambers burning at liftoff, and it flew successfully with zero failures of the booster itself.

A lot of this sort of mistaken ideas comes from the fact that the N-1 famously failed in all three of its launch attempts, but that was due to EXCEEDINGLY poor, virtually NONEXISTANT quality control and testing of individual engines (the NK-33's of the N-1 were built in groups of six, but only ONE was actually test fired-- if it passed, all the rest were 'certified to fly' with it... a cost cutting measure that proved disastrous. Plus, the flight control and engine control system used on N-1, the "Kord" system, was overly complex and susceptible to failures... it throttled engines for control rather than gimbaling them, and if an engine failed, it shut down the one on the opposite side to keep the thrust balanced and maintain control. This too proved disastrous. One of the test flights was lost due to foreign debris (probably a nut) being sucked into the high speed turbopump, causing an explosion and disintegration of the turbopump, perforating the propellant plumbing and igniting a fire. Another test flight suffered an engine failure and the Kord system subsequently shut down opposing engines, detected a fire, and shut them all down early in flight, allowing the N-1 to fall back unpowered onto the pad and explode, destroying the complex and killing workers underground. The last N-1 test lasted almost to first stage shutdown, but a few seconds early, engine failures and a fire caused the rocket to explode at altitude. Notice that these were all failures of SINGLE CHAMBER ENGINES operated in a cluster of 30, NOT a failure of a multiple-chamber engine like the RD-107/108 or RD-170 or RD-180.

Later! OL JR :)
 
Xrain's point is not a matter of draining energy.

Liquid oxygen is a lot colder than kerosene, so you can keep the chamber from melting even if you run the combustion temperature higher. Higher temperature = higher performance.

HUH?? The problem with running LOX-rich is that basically, you're operating a gigantic blowtorch at extremely high pressure and flow rates. It takes very special coatings and design to make it work at all without completely melting the engine down. The Soviets took the time and effort to develop the technology, whereas the US didn't.

Think about an oxy-acetylene torch... the flame is burning at 6,000 degrees at the inner cone tips, and when you get steel red hot, adding another stream of oxygen causes the steel to actually burn away (oxidize) and form slag which is subsequently blown away. Now imagine a rocket engine burning a million times as much LOX/ kerosene (rather than acetylene) in the same amount of time.

If your engine isn't constructed right, it's GOING to liquify... red hot metal in the presence of large amounts and high flow rates of oxygen is HIGHLY REACTIVE... IOW, it REALLY wants to melt and oxidize, at the surface, even if it's kept "cool" by flowing propellant (usually kerosene, at least in US engines-- not sure if the Russian engines use LOX to cool them or kerosene like ours do). That's where doing the metallurgy to find good NON-REACTIVE alloys and coatings to apply to the combustion chamber and nozzle walls is particularly important.

Later! OL JR :)
 
HUH?? The problem with running LOX-rich is that basically, you're operating a gigantic blowtorch at extremely high pressure and flow rates. It takes very special coatings and design to make it work at all without completely melting the engine down. The Soviets took the time and effort to develop the technology, whereas the US didn't.

Think about an oxy-acetylene torch... the flame is burning at 6,000 degrees at the inner cone tips, and when you get steel red hot, adding another stream of oxygen causes the steel to actually burn away (oxidize) and form slag which is subsequently blown away. Now imagine a rocket engine burning a million times as much LOX/ kerosene (rather than acetylene) in the same amount of time.

If your engine isn't constructed right, it's GOING to liquify... red hot metal in the presence of large amounts and high flow rates of oxygen is HIGHLY REACTIVE... IOW, it REALLY wants to melt and oxidize, at the surface, even if it's kept "cool" by flowing propellant (usually kerosene, at least in US engines-- not sure if the Russian engines use LOX to cool them or kerosene like ours do). That's where doing the metallurgy to find good NON-REACTIVE alloys and coatings to apply to the combustion chamber and nozzle walls is particularly important.

Later! OL JR :)

Except that an oxy-acetylene torch burns near stoichometric conditions. The turbomachinery on an RD-170 family engine runs with ALL of the LOX and a little tiny portion of kerosene. This means the inlet temperature to the turbines can be extremely cool (compared to the chamber temp, anyways), which reduces the wear and tear on the parts. Still a big problem to contend with, but not anywhere near "blow-torch" levels.
 
Because RS-68's, being ablatively cooled versus regeneratively cooled like SSME, will melt down when operated in a large cluster and flanked by highly heat-radiative solid rocket exhaust (which contains large amounts of molten alumina slag, white hot, radiating massive amounts of heat onto the engines, preventing them from radiating their own heat away properly... this was discovered during the studies of the operating conditions under the Ares V, and which is why the higher thrust but lower efficiency RS-68's were scratched from the design and SSME's adopted in their place.

Wow. Glad they figured out they would *melt down* before testing that out! That's wild.

Problem is, SSME is a VERY expensive engine. They were never designed for mass production. The shuttle-designed SSME's (RS-25D's) were designed to be reused, with lots of inspection ports, instrumentation, and features designed in to make them easier to inspect, repair, rebuild, and replace. These features make them expensive and are TOTALLY unnecessary on the SLS, since they'll be disposed of after each flight. Therefore the plan is to redesign the SSME's into RS-25E's, which will dispense with the reuse provisions and supposedly make the engine much cheaper. That remains to be seen, of course. Right now an SSME costs about double to triple the cost of an engine designed for disposal after a single use, like RS-68. It'll be interesting to see how much they can actually bring the cost of that engine down. A high pressure, staged combustion engine as complex as SSME is ALWAYS going to be an expensive engine, period. That's why SpaceX went for the safer, simpler, less expensive and better understood and more benign operating conditions required for a gas-generator engine, in their Merlin engine line. Of course a gas generator design will never be as efficient as a staged combustion cycle design like SSME or RD-180, regardless of propellant type (kerosene versus liquid hydrogen).

Once the shuttles landed, the SSME's were removed and transported to California (IIRC) and completely stripped down and basically rebuilt from the ground up. The rebuilt engines were then transported to the Stennis Space Center in southern Mississippi (just north of New Orleans) to be test fired for safety certification. Then the engines were shipped back to the Cape for installation on an orbiter being prepared for flight. The SSME's original design spec was that they were to be reusable for 25 flights IIRC, with five flights between basically any touch maintenance, IIRC... in reality, the SSME was SO close to the bleeding edge of what was possible and SO complex and operated SO close to the failure point, it was found that basically a complete rebuild was required after every flight. Turbine blade cracking, stress fractures, erosion, all sorts of problems were found in SSME's after flight... for a long while at the beginning of the Challenger investigation, it was believed that a SSME explosion had destroyed the vehicle, not a "relatively simple" SRB from a failed joint.

That explains the RS-25E a little better. They are essentially redesigning them for expendable use (hence the "E", duh!). I didn't realize the great amount of features that were just for inspection and re-use. Now I can see why they initially went to the SSME as a culprit in the Challenger disaster. I thought the design was much more robust than this.

Thank you for your always thorough and informative answers, JR!
 
There is a basic difference between Russian and American aerospace philosophy.

Dr. Goodenough leads the Russian space effort and Dr. Biggerbetter leads the American space effort.

Dr. Goodenough keeps the Russian space efforts mission centered, focused on the use of developed and proven systems to keep costs down. Once hardware is developed and in production and is successful, it is used. Incremental improvements are implemented, but the basic structure remains. Since the lifetime of a rocket is approximately 10 minutes, once you have an efficient system to get a payload of a given weight and size into orbit, there is no economic incentive to redesign and retool to make what will only be a small incremental improvement at a great cost. He maintains several different design centers to maintain cost competitive design competitions for new missions and insure that their existing production lines have business supporting existing missions. Only when new mission goals require a new system, are new additional systems developed.

Dr. Biggerbetter has lead the US space effort since the '70s. His efforts have been to developed single systems to do everything using established hardware and industrial capabilities whether or not it is appropriate for the mission. He acquires existing technology by acquisitions resulting in one large industrial conglomerate that purports to be capable of supplying new systems by using engineering modifications to off the shelf components to meet specific mission goals using existing supply chains. This has evolved into a conglomerate that develops the most expensive system possible that has difficulty meeting defined mission goals on the needed timeline.

This comparison is harsh, but deserved. The Russian Proton/Soyez launcher has been used in over 1800 launches over almost 5 decades. Why? Because the mission hasn't changed. The production costs are known, and the system works. No reason to retool production lines just to make a new system as the mission remains the same.

If you distill down what a launch system really is you come up with a relatively simple definition: A lightweight structure that contains a rocket propulsion system, propellant storage, and a payload, along with electromechanical systems that control the mission trajectory and payload deployment. The most expensive dived fixed cost is the propulsion system, as the propellant system is essentially tankage which can nominally be extended to increase propellant capacity. The most expensive operational cost is the propellant cost which is the major mass of in the system, typically ~90%. Of course the efficiency of the propellant also plays into the design, as an inefficient propellant represents wasted mass, and a low density propellant represents excessive volume.

In propulsion design, you have to consider specific impulse of the propellant both from a weight and density viewpoint. First stages contain the most fuel, and you want to make them as light as possible to minimize the mass but as volume efficient as possible to reduce aerodynamic drag, and propellant storability is not an issue for civilian space launches so cryogenics are fine. Upper stages are smaller but represent mass so mass specific impulse is often the design criteria and storable fuels are also not an issue as these stages are typically used within on week of launch. Payloads have long lifetimes so fuel storability is most important, and system simplicity is a plus so hypergolic propellants are frequently used.

The early US and Russian launch vehicles were all liquids, either LOX/Kerosene or hypergolic liquid fuels used in military systems, but LOX/Kerosene became the most popular due to it's availability, convenience, and cheapness. The Russian programs still use this today, however the American programs diverted to the higher mass specific efficiency of LOX/H2 propellant while ignoring the higher density specific impulse of LOX/Kerosene. This resulted in the large external tank on the shuttle and a factor of 10-20 increase in liquid propellant cost, and the need for auxiliary boosters to get it through the lower atmosphere. Here the choice was APCP which has a low mass specific impulse and a very high transportation cost, increasing propellant cost by a factor of 10-20 over LOX/Kerosene.

When you look at the Shuttle Mission, a possible equivalent propulsion system would be (3) F-1 motors, 2 as booster and 1 as a full burn to orbit, in a Delta-IV Heavy figuration. No need for the expensive solids or the SSME. Wait. That was the Buran......with Energia as the LV using RD-170 LOX-Kerosene engines....

Bob
 
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By the same token, their lack of proficiency with liquid hydrogen and the difficulties of containing and taming that particular beast was one of the reasons why they didn't succeed with their lunar program. N-1 relied on a five-stage monstrosity to deliver a minimal lunar payload only HALF the mass of the Apollo system to the Moon and return it to Earth, despite the N-1's massive size being half again the weight and thrust of the Saturn V. The first two stages were kerosene/LOX powered, the upper three powered by relatively inefficient (in terms of theoretically possible ISP) hypergolic propellants. The Saturn V, on the other hand, used a kerosene first stage for pure raw thrust to get the vehicle off the ground and out of the atmosphere (a role for which kerosene is IDEALLY suited, since it's theoretical ISP is lower than hydrogen/oxygen, which has the highest theoretical ISP of any chemical propellants, save hydrogen/fluorine, IIRC, and perhaps some exotic tri-propellants. Fluorine is something which has been experimented with and is just SO toxic and difficult to handle, and such a risk in the massive quantities required as a rocket propellant, that it's basically not worth the effort and risk...), then followed up with a large highly efficient liquid hydrogen powered second stage to get the vehicle nearly to orbit, and a highly efficient third stage powered by liquid hydrogen to complete the ascent to orbit and then propel the spacecraft stack through escape velocity. IOW, it was simply THE most efficient way of doing it. Still true today.

You don't need as great of an Isp when you can keep your structural mass fraction down, something that is going to be harder to do with 30 engines on your first stage alone.
 
You don't need as great of an Isp when you can keep your structural mass fraction down, something that is going to be harder to do with 30 engines on your first stage alone.

Especially when using spherical tanks which don't support anything above them...
 
Because for a long while at the beginning of the Challenger investigation, it was believed that a SSME explosion had destroyed the vehicle, not a "relatively simple" SRB from a failed joint.

This jogs my memory. I can confirm that the SSMEs were the primary suspect. I was working at Rockwell at the time (but not SSME development). A real fear swept through the whole company that Rockwell was responsible. When the blame was finally pointed at Thiokol, I think we all suffered a stress-relief headache.

No need for the expensive solids or the SSME. Wait. That was the Buran......

Bob

Plus the cost of developing a man-rated solid, which was always a little controversial. If you think about it... 1% of all shuttle flights ended with a solid motor blowing-up.


-->MCS


.
 
The SSME's were absurdly more efficient than the RD-180 or the NK-33, if you go by Isp. Then again, the SSME's ran LOX/LH2, which is about as good as it gets for chemical propulsion. The RD-180 and NK-33 are LOX/RP-1 engines. Their Isp is among the highest for that propellant combo since it runs a staged combustion cycle. US LOX/RP-1 engines tend to run the less efficient (by Isp), but lighter and easier gas generator cycle. Consequently, the gas generator cycle is what you saw on the F-1 engine and what you see in SpaceX's Merlin family of engines.

SpaceX is pursuing a staged combustion cycle for the Raptor engine, but it will run on LOX/CH4, so comparing its Isp will be another apples and oranges case.
LOX/H2 is more efficient based on mass specific impulse, but looses big time on density Isp. (Hence the external tank on the shuttle.)

Within a given fuel class the Isp varies greatly based on the nozzle expansion ratio, so it is not uncommon to have a difference of 50 seconds depending it the stage is designed to operate at sea level or in space.

Additionally several design features of the Russian RD-120 LOX/LH2 motor were being investigated for an improved SSME engine, and the RD-122, an enhanced thrust improvement of the RD-122 is similar to, and preceded, the Rocketdyne now Pratt RS-68 used on the Delta-IV (which employs Russian technology), so the Russians do not lag the US in liquid propellant technology, they are actually ahead, and far more cost effective as well.

Bob
 
This jogs my memory. I can confirm that the SSMEs were the primary suspect. I was working at Rockwell at the time (but not SSME development). A real fear swept through the whole company that Rockwell was responsible. When the blame was finally pointed at Thiokol, I think we all suffered a stress-relief headache.



Plus the cost of developing a man-rated solid, which was always a little controversial. If you think about it... 1% of all shuttle flights ended with a solid motor blowing-up.


-->MCS
As much as I hate the idea of using solids on a manned vehicle for many reasons, to be fair, it was the external tank that blew up! An o-ring in a SRB segment coupling failed, and the joint opened, resulting in a hot gas jet cutting into the external tank, detonating the LOX/H2 propellant, and ultimately destroying the aerodynamic integrity of the Shuttle. If that big tank was not there, there would have been no explosion......... and the integrity of the Shuttle would not have been compromised.........

Bob
 
As much as I hate the idea of using solids on a manned vehicle for many reasons, to be fair, it was the external tank that blew up! An o-ring in a SRB segment coupling failed, and the joint opened, resulting in a hot gas jet cutting into the external tank, detonating the LOX/H2 propellant, and ultimately destroying the aerodynamic integrity of the Shuttle. If that big tank was not there, there would have been no explosion......... and the integrity of the Shuttle would not have been compromised.........

Bob

???

If the big tank weren't there... How would it get to orbit?

That said, what was the purpose of ground starting the SSMEs, when the thrust was outclassed by the solids? Just so they wouldn't need airstarting?
 
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