808 Cam On A Boom To Film Thrust???

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TopRamen

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So how about it? Anyone mounted their 808 on a Boom, say like 10-12" away from the Airframe, aimed at where the good stuff/Thrust happens?
I'm thinking about making this happen on my TLP TAN-SAM.
Any Tips or Advice?
I was thinking I'de use a Bamboo Skewer as the Boom.
 
[video=youtube;-YwlQI3FTbM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YwlQI3FTbM[/video]

BTW...I did not do this...just knew the video was there.
 
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Looks like aerodynamic flutter is your big enemy here. I think your camera boom should be solidly mounted to the body...in the video, you can see the flexing loads that the camera boom is applying to the fin it's attached to. Might also want to try some low and slow flights first, then work your way up to get an idea of when the onset of flutter occurs.
 
Yeah, Dr. Zooch did this several years ago... had a brief thread on here about it when folks started asking a lot of questions...

Basically at the time he was using the little transmitter cams that Boostervision was selling... (this was long before the mini-keyfob cams started coming out!) He basically made something that looked like a coat hangar (out of dowels IIRC) that stuck out on either side of the rocket, braced by a cross-piece going down to the sides of the rocket. Then he taped a boostervision cam transmitting on one side and a dead cam on the other side for counterweight... worked well. Here's a shot from one of the videos... have to see if I can find the actual videos...

https://rocketdungeon.blogspot.com/2008/03/dr-zooch-outrigger-camera-rocket-videos.html

Later! OL JR :)
 
Here's some footage from a boom-cam, about 6 minutes 20 seconds in or so...

[YOUTUBE]JBIyI5p53ww[/YOUTUBE]

Later! OL JR :)
 
It would be on my TAN-SAM, a 17oz. 2 24mm Cluster riding D12s'. Speed would most definitely not be an Issue.
 
Here's some footage from a boom-cam, about 6 minutes 20 seconds in or so...

[YOUTUBE]JBIyI5p53ww[/YOUTUBE]

Later! OL JR :)


Thanks Luke, that is basically the View I want to have. Looking down at the Rear Fins and the Thrust Fire.
 
Thanks Luke, that is basically the View I want to have. Looking down at the Rear Fins and the Thrust Fire.

You're welcome... there's a thread around here somewhere that Wes shows how his setup is arranged... I'll have to see if I can find it...

Later! OL JR :)

Here it is... post 22...
https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showpost.php?p=477159&postcount=22

and a few more airborne shots in post 36...
https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showpost.php?p=477185&postcount=36

In this thread...
https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showthread.php?t=38312&highlight=zooch

Hope this helps! OL JR :)
 
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You're welcome... there's a thread around here somewhere that Wes shows how his setup is arranged... I'll have to see if I can find it...

Later! OL JR :)

Here it is... post 22...
https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showpost.php?p=477159&postcount=22

and a few more airborne shots in post 36...
https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showpost.php?p=477185&postcount=36

In this thread...
https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showthread.php?t=38312&highlight=zooch

Hope this helps! OL JR :)



That helps immensly!! Thank You again.
I have an extra 808 Camera thanks to Hball here, so I'll use two for the Balance!
Looks like I have a project for tonight!:)
 
So here it is. I put Aluminum Foil Tape on the Fins first so that I can use any kind of Tape to hold the Bamboo Skewer Booms on. To hold them I used a little Duct Tape. Then, some more Aluminum Foil Tape for the Cameras, as it is lightweight, yet extremely Rigid, and can be bent to just the right Angles.
The Second Camera has to Charge, so I have not attached it yet.
I ran into one big problem with my plan, which is that I only have one Micro SD Card, but that's fine as the Weather is'nt supposed to be that great tomorrow anyhow, so I can swing by Walmart to get another Micro SD Card. Atleast the Balance will be correct regardless.
Thanks for those Links with the Pics' of how to do it right Luke.


CameraMTTST81Boom 001.jpg
 
So here it is. I put Aluminum Foil Tape on the Fins first so that I can use any kind of Tape to hold the Bamboo Skewer Booms on. To hold them I used a little Duct Tape. Then, some more Aluminum Foil Tape for the Cameras, as it is lightweight, yet extremely Rigid, and can be bent to just the right Angles.
The Second Camera has to Charge, so I have not attached it yet.
I ran into one big problem with my plan, which is that I only have one Micro SD Card, but that's fine as the Weather is'nt supposed to be that great tomorrow anyhow, so I can swing by Walmart to get another Micro SD Card. Atleast the Balance will be correct regardless.
Thanks for those Links with the Pics' of how to do it right Luke.

Looks good and you're welcome!

Best of luck! OL JR :)
 
Should be able to fly sometime within the coming seven Days, so we'll all get to enjoy some Videos soon enough.:)
One of the Cameras, my first one, won't translate to Youtube for some reason, so I have to download the Video to my Computer, then take a Video with my regular Camera of my Screen while it Plays, then upload that to Youtube. I'm assuming that it is just some kind of defect in the Camera. I'm assuming that the Camera I got from hball55 I'll just be able to upload the Video from my Computer to Youtube.
On my first one, the Video will Upload from my Computer to Youtube, but upon trying to play it, all you get is a few Frames and a Screeching Sound, and then Youtube automatically detects that it is faulty and deletes it from my Videos.
So anyway, there will be two Videos, one from each side, but the one where I have to film my Computer Screen will obviously be of inferior Quality.
 
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Should be able to fly sometime within the coming seven Days, so we'll all get to enjoy some Videos soon enough.:)
One of the Cameras, my first one, won't translate to Youtube for some reason, so I have to download the Video to my Computer, then take a Video with my regular Camera of my Screen while it Plays, then upload that to Youtube. I'm assuming that it is just some kind of defect in the Camera.

Unfortunately this is a common issue with cheap 808 cameras. I hand my footage over to my son who has a video editing program that can export to different formats. You make a few tradeoffs with a camera cheap enough to risk loss or destruction.
 
Unfortunately this is a common issue with cheap 808 cameras. I hand my footage over to my son who has a video editing program that can export to different formats. You make a few tradeoffs with a camera cheap enough to risk loss or destruction.

Yeah, I got the Cheapest one I could, and discussed this in a different Thread. Ohwell, atleast I can work around its Shortcomings.
I should test out the other one real quick to make sure it does'nt do the same thing, but if it does, it is fine, since it was free, and I can always just do the same thing for it.
I'll go make and upload a "Test" Video now.
 
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This Cam is good to go! Thanks hball55.

[video=youtube;m5-unvxTc1w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5-unvxTc1w[/video]
 
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I went to Walmart today and got the extra Micro SD Card. It's a Class 4, but I tried it out and it works just fine.

Both are now charged and mounted, so it's up to the Weather to determine our Launch Window. The Field is only half a Mile from my House, so we can get there in a couple of Minutes when the Time is right.:)
 
So, here's the results. 2 D12-5s proved to have too long of a Delay. I realized that they likely would as I was prepping the Rocket, but decided to launch anyway, because I'm that kind of Launcher. First here's the Video that my Son took, watching the Rocket:

[video=youtube;QTItiJrt8U0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTItiJrt8U0[/video]

Then here is the first Camera:

[video=youtube;VwLYp0sNXoM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwLYp0sNXoM[/video]

The Chute' did'nt even really have time to open.

Remarkably, there was only slight damage to the Rocket, a Compression of the Body Tube just above the Rear Fins. This will be fixed by slicing it apart and inserting a Coupler. It will fix up just fine, but from now on she's only getting 3 Second Delays when she rides BP Motors.

DAMAGEREPORT 004.jpg
 
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The second Camera got Video too, but the Fins were not visible in the Frame, and it is the Camera that was just along for the Ride, the one that does'nt work right, so I won't bother trying to post it.
 
I'm going to commence the Repairs tonight.:)
Can't have my Favorite Bird lookin' like this.
 
Got the Tube cut, squared up, and made a my Coupler. She'll be nearly 1/2" shorter now.
While I have her open, I'm going to Dremel away the Motor Hooks so as to be able to use the longer BP Motors with Tape Thrust Rings or the Long Composites with the Built-in Thrust Ring.:)
I should have done this right at the beginning, but I was on this Kick of trying to build as close to "Stock" as possible at the time. Now that I know how stable she is and how well she flies I see no Issue with reworking the MMT.
That will have to wait til' tomorrow though. I'm tired now, and doing the Dremel work will require the utmost care and dexterity.

CouplerFix 003.jpg
 

Sweet! Thanks.

I've decide against cutting away the Motor Hooks after all. It looks as if I did do it, I might as well just gut the entire MMT Assembly and start with a brand new one, and I don't feel like doing all that to it right now since it flies fine as is.
I am however going to get another TAN-SAM and call it the Type 81 Mark III, and do a 3x24mm Mount without Hooks, most similar to the way my LOC Viper III is set up, with the SS Allthread and a Nut and Washer for Retention. I'm starting that next Month if all goes according to plan.
This one is a Good "Park Flyer", and if I get too crazy updogging it, I'll be tempted to fly it in the Park on Motors that will land it in the Trees.
 
The main thing to remember with these exotic mounts is to always account for the shift in CG...

Short version: Anything that moves the CG FORWARD will increase stability... anything that moves the CG REARWARD will decrease stability or cause the rocket to go unstable... therefore, when installing these aft-of-the-rocket-looking-forward boom mounted cameras, one MUST re-balance the rocket to account not only for the weight of the camera, but also the distance that weight is mounted aft of the rocket... the moment-arms MUST be the same.

What I mean by that is, say you're mounting a 20 gram camera 50 centimeters behind the rocket's "unmodified" but loaded-in-flight-condition CG... If you can add 20 grams of nose-weight 50 centimeters AHEAD of the same CG point, the CG point will not change with the addition of the camera and the noseweight-- their moment-arms will be equal, and therefore COUNTERBALANCE. If the rocket is short and you can only add noseweight 25 centimeters ahead of the unmodified (no camera booms) CG, then you will have to add TWICE the weight to make up for the HALVING of the distance from the CG, in order to counterbalance properly... that would make 40 grams of noseweight 25 centimeters ahead of the CG to counterbalance a camera weighing 20 grams located 50 centimeters behind the unmodified loaded CG... to keep the CG in the present location (basically, multiply the weight of the camera and boom by the distance behind the present CG location of the rocket, loaded and prepped for flight (less ignitor) and balanced on a ruler to find the loaded, unmodified CG... in this example, 20 gram camera times 50 centimeters equals 1000... so whatever location you add the noseweight to, in this instance, 25 centimeters ahead of the loaded unmodified CG, would require 1000/25= 40 grams of noseweight... )

When adding cameras and counterweights to the nose end of the rocket, the shift in mass results in the CG moving forward, which should increase stability. Adding weight to the AFT end of the rocket moves the CG rearward, which is INHERENTLY DEstabilizing... That's why doing these AFT mounts is much more difficult than doing even elaborate boom mountings on the front... and it's also the reason why MOST cameras are mounted near the FRONT of the body tube, as far forward as possible or practical. Mounting the camera at the CG will have the least effect on movement of the CG point.

ANY time you add a camera AFT of the unmodified (no camera, boom, additional noseweight, etc) CG point, you WILL shift the CG rearward, which is destabilizing. The further aft you mount a given weight, the more destabilizing it will be, simple as that, just the opposite of mounting the weight as far forward as possible will move the CG forward as much as possible.

One should also not neglect the aero-effects of mounting cameras and things out on booms "sticking out in the wind"... While the aero-effects of small diameter dowels, skewers, CF or metallic rods, etc. should be negligible and well within the abilities of the rocket's fins to overcome, flat wooden strips or other materials can act like very long, thin fins, and can cause problems from lift they generate... Remember than the SPAN of a fin generates much more force than the CHORD of a fin-- that is to say, a "fin" (or anything acting like a fin, like a long, thin, flat boom sticking out from the side of the rocket) will produce more force the further out it sticks from the side of the rocket; lengthening the fin along the long-axis of the rocket will generate less increase in (hopefully stabilizing) force than increasing its span, or how far out it sticks from the tube... that's why long, thin, "skinny" fins are more effective than short, long, "fat" fins, strakes, or other such things. Remember too that the forces generated by any such long flat booms will act on the rocket according to not only how strong the aerodynamic force it generates, but it's "leverage arm" or location from the CG... the "moment arm of inertia" as it's called in Rocksim...

While round booms should have virtually no aerodynamic effect from a stability standpoint (other than drag, which can add up obviously, and too much additional drag too far forward CAN act like "shuttlecock" or "plate" stability (drag stability) and reduce the effectiveness or even overpower the stabilizing forces generated by the fins, one should consider the shape and orientation of the camera as well... flat, "plate like" cameras put on booms out away from the body tube can 'catch a lot of wind' and act like a deflected control surface aerodynamically... sort of like a landing flap or aileron, and out on the end of a boom, any force it generates will be multiplied by its leverage arm (the longer the boom, the more the force multiplication!) SO, be sure that the counterweight shape is aerodynamically the same, if at all possible, to minimize any unbalanced aerodynamic forces.

One can minimize nose weight requirements by putting the noseweight into a ball or teardrop shape on the end of a boom itself sticking out the front of the nosecone... this would increase the noseweight's moment arm of inertia, therefore making it more effective at counterbalancing the mass of the camera and boom behind the rocket's unmodified loaded CG. Going back to the original example, the 20 gram camera mounted 50 centimeters behind the unmodified loaded CG (ULCG)... (20x50=1000)... If we put the noseweight on a boom 100 centimeters ahead of the ULCG, we could reduce the mass of the noseweight to 10 grams and still have the same effect on CG (10x100=1000), counterbalancing the camera with half the additional noseweight.

What this shows is that long, skinny rockets with large fins are best suited to these "aft mounted facing forward" rear boom cameras trailing behind the rocket. They have a higher margin of stability to start with, and therefore we don't have to be AS careful about keeping the CG in the same spot without the camera or with it. It also makes the addition of noseweight to the rocket to offset the aft mass of the camera and boom much easier to accomplish with less additional noseweight needed. Basically, don't try this with a short, fat rocket!

One other thing to remember-- adding counterweights aft of the rocket is a VERY bad idea... MORE weight aft of the ULCG is a BAD, BAD idea... keep the mass of the boom and camera to a bare minimum, mount the camera NO FURTHER AFT than ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, and try to set the camera up so that it will have minimal aerodynamic effect... turn flat, plate-shaped cameras (like the keyfob cams) so that they are flat to the airstream when angled toward the motor nozzle/rocket... do not mount them "top side up" or whatever where they will catch more air and act like a deflected elevator and induce pitch into the rocket-- remember, ANY aerodynamic effect the camera has WILL be MULTIPLIED into the airframe due to the VERY LONG moment arm of inertia behind the CG!!! Even more than the fins, which are mounted much closer to the CG, since they're IN FRONT of the camera!

Mounting the camera closest the CG will minimize any forces generated by aero-effects due to the short moment arm of inertia between the force and the CG... remember that fins and aero effects caused by them act just like levers lifting a weight... the longer the leverage, the less force is required to move the load. The shorter the lever, the more force must be applied to move the load. Remember too that aero-effects can include cameras acting like DRAG BRAKES deployed out away from the rocket, on the end of a LONG arm, giving them more leverage, and therefore multiplying their aerodynamic force. That's why its important to keep the stack as SYMMETRICAL AS POSSIBLE, with the boom and counterweight approximately equal in "wetted area" and ORIENTATION of that counterweight to the airflow around the rocket... so that the forces are balanced. Due to the additional mass of a counterweight FAR BEHIND THE CG, I WOULD NOT advise the use of a counterweight on the opposite side of the rocket on aft-boom-mounted-looking-forward type camera setups... this only COMPOUNDS the need for additional noseweight to offset the aft location of the camera AND its counterweight! Plus, all the extra weight makes the fins that much less effective, because it makes the rocket MUCH heavier, therefore MORE force must be generated by the fins to get that extra tail boom weight, camera, and noseweight moving to correct the flight path of the rocket... Basically, the fins act like they're too small due to all the extra mass they have to push around, or its leverage on the rocket itself (moment arm of inertia from the CG).

This is an interesting topic and provides REALLY cool video, BUT, one has to REALLY stop and think about the effects of the camera setup one is contemplating on the rocket and its CG/CP relationship, and on the mass distribution (CG) of the rocket compared to the "baseline" unmodified loaded CG, and on the aero-effects of the camera and boom on the rocket (which is harder to visualize...)

Later and keep it safe! OL JR :)
 
Sweet! Thanks.

I've decide against cutting away the Motor Hooks after all. It looks as if I did do it, I might as well just gut the entire MMT Assembly and start with a brand new one, and I don't feel like doing all that to it right now since it flies fine as is.
I am however going to get another TAN-SAM and call it the Type 81 Mark III, and do a 3x24mm Mount without Hooks, most similar to the way my LOC Viper III is set up, with the SS Allthread and a Nut and Washer for Retention. I'm starting that next Month if all goes according to plan.
This one is a Good "Park Flyer", and if I get too crazy updogging it, I'll be tempted to fly it in the Park on Motors that will land it in the Trees.

Remember to CAREFULLY re-check your stability margins when adding that many motors to the back... TLP rockets aren't known for being "over-stable" as it is, and adding all those motors and additional motor mount weight to the back end of the rocket can EASILY go from being "stable" to UNSTABLE very quickly! Remember too that while you might make it stable with a trio of D12's or something, if you install E9's or E12's, the extra weight may make it completely unstable!

In fact, you may find that going up to the three motor cluster, you have to add SO much extra noseweight to achieve a safe stability margin, that the rocket basically doesn't gain any performance... in which case you're burning a LOT of money per launch for little/no benefit... D and E motors aren't as cheap as they used to be!

That's why a lot of TLP designs are "twitchy"... you can make mods, but you better be SURE of what you're doing and the effects it will have BEFORE you do it... otherwise you're asking for a "fiery pinwheel of death" or a balsa-garnished crater...

Best of luck! OL JR :)
 
Thanks Luke for the Heads up, but you've actually told me that a few times before in some of my other Threads.
I have absolutely no interest in mounting a Camera BEHIND the Rocket, and next time I fly a Boom Camera on this one I'm only mounting one Camera.
I will ofcourse always check my CG on all my Builds, but you make a good point about trading off Performance for more Motors.
Thing is, I don't care at all about Altitude, so even if my next one only goes as high as this one, as long as I get to see Three Motors burning at the same time, I'll be Happy. Heck, I'de be happy strapping the Rocket to the Pad so it can't even lift off and just watching the Motors burn.

I'll likely fly her a few more times anyway before playing with Cameras on her again anyway. When I do, I'll return to this Thread to post more Vids.
 
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Thanks Luke for the Heads up, but you've actually told me that a few times before in some of my other Threads.
I have absolutely no interest in mounting a Camera BEHIND the Rocket, and next time I fly a Boom Camera on this one I'm only mounting one Camera.
I will ofcourse always check my CG on all my Builds, but you make a good point about trading off Performance for more Motors.
Thing is, I don't care at all about Altitude, so even if my next one only goes as high as this one, as long as I get to see Three Motors burning at the same time, I'll be Happy. Heck, I'de be happy strapping the Rocket to the Pad so it can't even lift off and just watching the Motors burn.

I'll likely fly her a few more times anyway before playing with Cameras on her again anyway. When I do, I'll return to this Thread to post more Vids.

Just so long as you know what you're getting into... Good luck and stay safe! OL JR :)

PS... it never hurts to reiterate the reasons why one must be careful about such things... while I'm sure you understand the effects on CG/CP relationship of adding extra weight to the tail end of a rocket, there are plenty of others that read threads like this and don't know or think about it-- they just read it and think "hey, what a neat idea-- I think I'll put three motors in MY rocket too..." without knowing or considering the consequences and how to modify the rocket correctly so that it remains balanced and stable... THOSE are the folks I'm trying to inform, if not you yourself... :)

Best of luck on your build!
 
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Just so long as you know what you're getting into... Good luck and stay safe! OL JR :)

PS... it never hurts to reiterate the reasons why one must be careful about such things... while I'm sure you understand the effects on CG/CP relationship of adding extra weight to the tail end of a rocket, there are plenty of others that read threads like this and don't know or think about it-- they just read it and think "hey, what a neat idea-- I think I'll put three motors in MY rocket too..." without knowing or considering the consequences and how to modify the rocket correctly so that it remains balanced and stable... THOSE are the folks I'm trying to inform, if not you yourself... :)

Best of luck on your build!

Thanks Luke, and though I used to think you were long winded when you explained these things to me in such Detail, I now enjoy the Read, and recognize that you are adding pertainent Information to the Context of the Thread.
You are right, someone else who is not willing to weigh and balance their Rocket may just go ahead and do something stupid, so good call for making the Points that you explained.
Sorry if I came off as trying to make a Rebuttal to your well thought out Comment.
 
I feel the need to note the opposite can also be true. I added a ogive-like 1/2 inch diameter protrusion near the nose of my 54mm rocket to put an 808 inside, despite it being lower drag than simply mounting the camera on the outside rocksim shows that it moved my CP over 1 caliber forward with only a small movement of my CG. This could be just as dangerous as moving the cg back from mounting the camera low on the rocket.
 
I feel the need to note the opposite can also be true. I added a ogive-like 1/2 inch diameter protrusion near the nose of my 54mm rocket to put an 808 inside, despite it being lower drag than simply mounting the camera on the outside rocksim shows that it moved my CP over 1 caliber forward with only a small movement of my CG. This could be just as dangerous as moving the cg back from mounting the camera low on the rocket.

That's correct.

I once mounted a larger camera in the nose cone of a Giant Leap Vertical Assault. I didn't think that the camera sticking out of one side of the nose cone to look down the rocket would cause a problem because the rocket is very long and over-stable by default. But ...

Lift-off was nice and the rocket streaked to about 400 feet when it suddenly made a 90 degree turn. Shortly afterwards, the altimeter deployed the drogue 'chute then the main. The rocket returned safely and undamaged. But a 400 foot flight when I was expecting about 4000 feet was a bit of a disappointment.

I think the problem is that the rocket turned, relative to the airflow, just enough that the small fins weren't able to compete with the camera. The camera was mounted much further from the CP than the fins, so it was as if it were at the end of a long lever. Even though it didn't stick out as much as the fins, the lever multiplied the force and the fins weren't able to correct for it. The rocket was stable, as we generally define "stable," but not when the angle-of-attack was just right (or just wrong).

So, now, when I have a camera sticking out of (or onto a rocket), I try to place it close to both the CG and CP where it'll have less effect on both of them.

-- Roger
 
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