Tracking Smoke @ Deployment For Recovery

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Pyropetepete

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So we already get some sort of tracking smoke at the end of motor burn out, sometimes it helps other times it's pants.

Having seen this being used on some missile testing once with work and recently someone else here have always wanted too see it on my rockets. So I'm going to share the idea.

I found this company in the UK (a lot more options states side) https://www.enolagaye.com/

They have varying products that are Smoke Grenades. The one I've selected for this project is the Friction Smoke Grenades https://www.enolagaye.com/friction-smoke-grenades/ You'll see why when looking at my photos. I ordered 5 of each for the cheapest UK shop. £40 delivered, didn't think that was too bad

Clearly marked for what colour they are





Instructions on how to use



This is the bottom of the product



The top



Cracked the top cap off this is what you get





Striker compound, thick visco fuse



Weight before firing



These are my ematches. My other job is a Lead Fireworks Tech so have these by the box





They have this red protective cover which fits the fuse perfectly



Plenty of room from head of match to fuse



It fits



So the plan is this, do exactly as above. Some electrical tape to hold in place. Wire into the same outlets for your drouge or main. Making sure you have enough cable length (i've gone with 3M).

These are listed as being 38mm dia but they are not, they are slightly bigger even with label pealed off (yep I've tried) with is a shame.

Need to work a way of mounting them, had planed on fitting into a tube. Still might be an option as think some PVC will work. Say a tube with an ID of 40mm.

Have made a dirty test cable and will go test one now using the ematch. I will film it and report back with video.

Pete
 
As a pyro, you know you have to have a better passfire method than just using the cap. I would prime the visco and go with quick or black match and a mechanical bond. It's not an ejection charge-so make sure your RSO approves this. Make sure it's not going to set the landscape on fire after it's down.
 
Was a little dark but what the hell, it worked!! RESULT Sorry for the poor video, iPhone around the wrong way

Blue & Green tested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS_SCIHAlZM&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck_Fbq7w8hU&feature=youtu.be

Findings, Need a to make sure the match and what ever I use clear. I'm sure the tumble/wind/drag will help do this.

Might look at alternative way to hold the match on. Maybe Masking tape be better or small cardboard tube
These would not be permitted at my field. There would be a high probability of setting something on fire with these in rockets.

--Lance.
 
I have a Cannon that I sometimes fire electronically. When I make up a Fuse for it, I use 3mm Visco Fuse, which I cut a Notch into the first 1/2". I then insert the Ignitor into this slit annd tape it up. The Ignitor is then in direct contact with the Powder Train inside the Fuse for gauranteed ignition.
 
As a pyro, you know you have to have a better passfire method than just using the cap. I would prime the visco and go with quick or black match and a mechanical bond. It's not an ejection charge-so make sure your RSO approves this. Make sure it's not going to set the landscape on fire after it's down.

As I said it was a quick and dirty test. Proper testing will be shortly as away with work. The visco is already primed. Due to the sensitive coating I'm not risking paying with it. Quick doesn't always light visco and black is tempting. The fuse was lose so on my next test I may remove it and refuse with visco and a better bond with the ematch. RSO approves of it. You've seen how wet the UK is right? This burns cold ie no flame is what they say.

They make smoke bombs that work with a pull cord. The pull cord could be attached to the nose cone and would start smoke on ejection, no igniter needed.

Like these:
https://www.onlinefireworks.com/smokegrenades.aspx
Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum

A lot of these pull fuse need a stead pull and directional. I can not be sure that will happen. This is more fun and hand on.

These would not be permitted at my field. There would be a high probability of setting something on fire with these in rockets.

--Lance.

Not sure how if it's controlled from an altimeter that's got an arm switch. No different to pre ejection risk on the pad

I have a Cannon that I sometimes fire electronically. When I make up a Fuse for it, I use 3mm Visco Fuse, which I cut a Notch into the first 1/2". I then insert the Ignitor into this slit annd tape it up. The Ignitor is then in direct contact with the Powder Train inside the Fuse for gauranteed ignition.

Might look into this as have though of the same way but using some Chinese time fuse I have
 
I've used smoke candles in the past; what I did was pull out the existing fuse an insert a DaveyFire 28F into its place, bonding it in with a little epoxy on the wire (not the match head).

The ones I used were for testing ductwork from Saf-Vue (sp?), but that company seems to be gone. Googling "plumber's smoke candles" finds others, such as these by Superior.
 
Just a reminder if you launch at a TRA events you sign a waiver :

10.1 Do not install or incorporate in high power rocket a payload that is intended to be flammable, explosive, or cause harm.



NAR have something to say in their code too :

8. Flight Safety. I will not launch my rocket at targets, into clouds, or near airplanes, and will not put any flammable or explosive payload in my rocket.



If you launch in Canada it's prohibited by law

9.15. No person shall launch a high power rocket containing explosive, incendiary or live vertebrate animal payloads.
 
Just a reminder if you launch at a TRA events you sign a waiver :

10.1 Do not install or incorporate in high power rocket a payload that is intended to be flammable, explosive, or cause harm.



NAR have something to say in their code too :

8. Flight Safety. I will not launch my rocket at targets, into clouds, or near airplanes, and will not put any flammable or explosive payload in my rocket.



If you launch in Canada it's prohibited by law

9.15. No person shall launch a high power rocket containing explosive, incendiary or live vertebrate animal payloads.

Is the smoke device *really* part of the payload? Or is it a part of the recovery device? Going by your interpretation, only motor ejection could be used - no ejection charges outside the motor.
 
We have been launching now for a couple of years using these smoke tracers and they work absolutely fantastic.
We are using the smoke tracers from sportsmoke.com, which are set up with an "E" match https://tinyurl.com/ne49trx

[video=youtube;65xpRyeXSS4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65xpRyeXSS4&list=UUBrmF9WkeBW3-szr2u9YoyQ[/video]

The "E" match is connected to your altimeter drogue circuit (always test the system to make sure it can handle two or more "E" matches before launching).
It is very simple to attach this. We are using the cardboard tube that comes in an aerotech motor kit that they put the "E" match in, simply cut this tube in half, epoxy it to the outside of the smoke tracer, run your shock cord through it, tie a knot, run your "E" match through the same way you would for your ejection charge, connect it to your same circuit (drogue) and you're done. We use this on flights up and above 6,000ft. The burn time is about 1-1/2 to 2 minutes. They have a larger smoke tracer that can last up to 3 to 3-1/2 minutes for higher altitudes, it is a little larger in diameter, so we use this one in our 4" or larger airframes. Works the same way, with the "E" match, just has a longer burn time.

These are the same smoke tracers they use for parachutists, RC airplanes, paintball, etc. Search and Rescue teams use these in wooded areas for spot locations.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kDwf5SQw9w the ones we use are set up with a e-match
 
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Is the smoke device *really* part of the payload? Or is it a part of the recovery device? Going by your interpretation, only motor ejection could be used - no ejection charges outside the motor.

I don't make any interpretation, I present facts from a government and 2 rocket association. As for using BP for ejection outside the motor, here in Canada the authority give a special authorization to the CAR and it as to be use only at CAR high power events. So you can't use it here if you not at a CAR high power launch , not an interpretation a fact.

ref.

https://www.canadianrocketry.org/files/ERD_BP_letter.jpg
 
Is the smoke device *really* part of the payload? Or is it a part of the recovery device? Going by your interpretation, only motor ejection could be used - no ejection charges outside the motor.

OMG, I think I may have a flammable parachute in one of my rockets! And another one is made out of paper! And I hear about people putting Lithium batteries in their altimeters, can't those explode under some conditions?

Ari.
 
I don't make any interpretation, I present facts from a government and 2 rocket association. As for using BP for ejection outside the motor, here in Canada the authority give a special authorization to the CAR and it as to be use only at CAR high power events. So you can't use it here if you not at a CAR high power launch , not an interpretation a fact.

ref.

https://www.canadianrocketry.org/files/ERD_BP_letter.jpg

(emphasis added)
The OP was from England (which I had originally missed), so we may not have an adequate understanding of (his) local law. What constitutes a high power launch in Canada? I know guys here that use electronic ejection with what we (down south) consider less than high power (less impulse than H class). Also, the letter you reference specifically calls out the use of black powder in ejection charges. Tracking smoke is not an ejection charge, nor is it black powder. Nor is it an explosive or propellant (terms of art in law regarding this area).
 
......... Make sure it's not going to set the landscape on fire after it's down.




These would not be permitted at my field. There would be a high probability of setting something on fire with these in rockets.

--Lance.


And they are not here too

from wiki :

"Although modern smoke grenades are designed not to directly emit fire or sparks, they remain a fire hazard and are capable of igniting dry vegetation or flammable substances if used injudiciously."


It may be not a concern for some person here, but as a prefect I have responsibility to the farm owners who give us generously access to their farm.
 
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(emphasis added)
The OP was from England (which I had originally missed), so we may not have an adequate understanding of (his) local law. )

Because you don't know don't means I don't know.. here from the The United Kingdom Rocketry Association :

1.6 Payloads. No UKRA member's rocket will ever carry live animals or any payload that is
intended to be flammable, explosive, or harmful.
 
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Also, the letter you reference specifically calls out the use of black powder in ejection charges. Tracking smoke is not an ejection charge, nor is it black powder. Nor is it an explosive or propellant (terms of art in law regarding this area).

of course, they are not ejection charge, but I was answering your reply ,:facepalm:

Is the smoke device *really* part of the payload? Or is it a part of the recovery device? Going by your interpretation, only motor ejection could be used - no ejection charges outside the motor.
 
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Tracking smoke is not an ejection charge, nor is it black powder. Nor is it an explosive or propellant .

Considering that many use Potassium Nitrate and Sugar to make them, it seems close to a propellant to me no ? Of course it depends on how much Bicarbonate you put in it.
 
Considering that many use Potassium Nitrate and Sugar to make them, it seems close to a propellant to me no ? Of course it depends on how much Bicarbonate you put in it.

That's not the formula *I* use for smoke. Burn rates are considered in assessing whether it's an explosive or a propellant, as well as the intended use. For example, nitrocellulose-based compounds used for loading/reloading firearm cartridges are legally classified (in the US) as propellants, not explosives. Black powder may be (legally defined as) an explosive ot a propellant, depending upon its use
 
Do you get much residue from the smoke on your parachutes, cords, etc.?

Ari.
Nope. We use Kevlar shock chords on all of our rockets (shouldn't use anything but) The drogue chute is attached about 1 1/2 - 2 Feet from the smoke.
 
UKRA doesn't cover me. I do not fly under what they want. I fly under the BMFA which is what the UK Goverment want, say and do. END OF CHUMS
 
UKRA doesn't cover me. I do not fly under what they want. I fly under the BMFA which is what the UK Goverment want, say and do. END OF CHUMS

I think you should at least read the BMFA Handbook , for High Power they are using the UKRA safety code

What ever ...if non responsible peoples start fires in fields with their smoke tracking device, government will impose more severe rules and we will all have to pay the price. It is clear that I see sparks in the video of your own testing you post

[video=youtube;SS_SCIHAlZM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS_SCIHAlZM&feature=youtu.be[/video]

bfa_zps00efa25a.jpg


bfa.jpg
 
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Sparks are from the ematch which is no different to what used for deployment charge.

Heck a skid mark makes more mess and I had one hit 5k and seen some go off from 15k up

It's fine do no worry about it
 
OMG, I think I may have a flammable parachute in one of my rockets! And another one is made out of paper! And I hear about people putting Lithium batteries in their altimeters, can't those explode under some conditions?

Ari.

Exactly...

Won't stop some people from stretching the facts to fit any situation they're personally opposed to.

Now, playing devil's advocate, it WOULD be the RESPONSIBILITY of anyone incorporating one of these into their design to ENSURE that it is housed in such a fashion that it would not present a danger of starting a grass fire or wild fire upon landing in dry grass or brush, leaf litter, etc... Similarly they would be responsible for any fire that started as a result of using one...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I think you should at least read the BMFA Handbook , for High Power they are using the UKRA safety code

What ever ...if non responsible peoples start fires in fields with their smoke tracking device, government will impose more severe rules and we will all have to pay the price. It is clear that I see sparks in the video of your own testing you post

Well, honestly, have you ever seen a D motor ignition?? Those things give off a SHOWER of sparks when they light up! Most model rockets emit SOME level of sparks when they ignite. Once at a 4-H fair launch, I got a burn on my butt from a small BB-size bit of WHITE HOT glassy-type "ejecta" material blown out of a model rocket motor that had just lifted off... evidently it was some kind of sand or clay "inclusion" embedded in the rocket propellant, that when exposed to the extreme heat of the burning of the BP surrounding it inside the motor, physically melted into a liquid-glass type material and was blown out of the motor, landed on the aluminum bleacher seat upon which I was sitting, and subsequently rolled under my leg, burning a hole in the back of my pants and leg about the size of the end of your little finger and about 1/8 inch deep... I jumped up thinking I'd sat on a wasp or bee and had been stung, only to turn and see the white-hot but rapidly cooling "BB" of "liquid glass" bouncing and rolling around the aluminum bleacher seat like a drop of water in a hot skillet... It rapidly cooled and turned in a black hollow glass spherule about 1/8 inch in diameter.

Had this landed in dry grass, I have NO DOUBT that it could have started a grass fire. It's also not unheard of for hot ignitors or even sparks from motor startup ejected at ignition to start a grass fire near the pad. Won't even discuss the fires started by "sparky" motors, yet they're "legal" (with certain requirements which many launches do not observe or haphazardly enforce). Of course more fires have been started by rockets catoing or land sharking or going unstable or otherwise failing and landing on dry grass, leaves, or leaf litter while still under power or ejecting on the ground and throwing a shower of sparks... which of course ejection charges usually emit a pretty good cloud of sparks themselves, with bits of still-burning BP flying about and out of the rocket. This usually isn't a problem, since it occurs a few hundred feet above the ground.

Similarly, I don't think this fellow's smoke grenade is any more "risky" than any other rocket ignition or that its ejection of sparks is any more likely to start a fire than a D motor ignition or any rocket landing on the ground and then firing its ejection charge.

Simply put, the risk is NOT "zero" in anything we do. I don't see the point in arguing semantics or stretching the rules further than they were meant to... the rules against "explosive warheads" and such were put in place to keep numb-nuts from "playing war" with rockets lobbing firecrackers or M-80's or makeshift Molotov cocktails at each other or "other targets"... I think it's a mistake and does a disservice to "arbitrarily" extend the rules beyond what they were originally designed to address. Otherwise the same argument could be used against multi-stagers, airstart motors (all of which are technically "payloads" of the ground-lit first stage) and many other things.

If one has demonstrable proof that these present an unacceptable safety risk, or that certain techniques or methods should be used to minimize or hopefully eliminate such risks, then by all means that should be discussed and formal recommendations should be issued by the organizations... perhaps even 'codified' into the model rocket or high power safety codes... otherwise, it's rather capricious "rules making" off the cuff by anyone opposed to it for whatever reason... (which granted, is part of the definition of the RSO... making on-the-spot decisions based on the conditions and equipment being presented at the time).

I'm all for additional safety, but NOT for needlessly hamstringing people for no good reason... One thing I can instantly see that would increase safety would be to enclose these smoke grenades within the body tube or an enclosed payload bay or av-bay... perhaps even within their own "mount", perhaps constructed of copper tubing with a cap on either end, with the output end having a hole drilled in it sufficient to allow the passage of the smoke produced without causing excessive pressure build-up (ie 1.5-2 times the diameter of the smoke outlet of the grenade after firing, or something similar). This would prevent a still-burning smoke grenade itself from coming into contact with dry weeds, grass, or leaf litter and such in the event the rocket crashed or landed in an inaccessible area or was lost or required considerable time to locate after landing... while still allowing the smoke to be released from the rocket as it descended. Such a rule COULD be instituted at the club level, and as a launch site landowner myself, that's a rule that I could certainly get behind... while it might present additional constraints in the mounting or use procedures or methods for someone wanting to fly a smoke grenade, it would satisfy the safety concerns while still allowing the activity and not needlessly restricting things or outright "banning" someone from using something. Of course that's a decision up to the landowner and club officials to work out between themselves.

One other thing that should be addressed, not only in regards to this particular subject, but in a larger sense as well-- that is the NEED to modify or postpone allowable activities or events BASED ON THE PREVAILING CONDITIONS AND SITUATION AT THE TIME. For instance, I would see NO PROBLEM launching one of these when the grass is lush and green, and conditions are wet or moist from frequent rain, or in winter with snow on the ground or prolonged winter rains making everything wet. The likelihood of igniting anything on the ground in such conditions would be extremely remote, at best. Similarly, flying in desert or some area with no flammable materials in the area the flights are launching, landing, or potentially crashing, would similarly pose little to no risk... (sort of like the 'bare ground' setback requirements for sparky motors, but of course since these would be active at landing, it's not enough just to clear around the pad for a smoke grenade in a landing rocket, because you have no idea where it's eventually going to land. In a similar vein, if it were hot, dry, and windy, with lots of dry standing vegetation easily ignited and prone to spreading into a wildfire, I wouldn't fly one of these AT ALL, because the conditions are simply too dangerous for it!

That's the main thing I see that bugs me... some folks will fly ANYTHING "just because it's legal" WITHOUT REGARD to the prevailing conditions at the time and place of launch... Similarly, knee-jerk reactions banning stuff that presents little to no or acceptable risk, or demonstrating safety precautions adequate to minimize any risks, "just because" makes little sense either. I know I've told the club advisor they can fly out here even during a burn ban, SO LONG AS CONDITIONS ARE SAFE... If we get an inch or two of rain and the LOCAL CONDITIONS are safe-- everything is damp or wet, or the grass has been grazed or cut short, etc., presenting negligible risk of fire, then I'll okay a launch. Also, by the same token, if the general area has been getting sufficient rainfall that a burn-ban hasn't been instituted, but the launching field is particularly dry with lots of standing dry vegetation and hot, windy conditions prevailing for the anticipated launch date, I reserve the right to cancel the launch based on those UNSAFE CONDITIONS...

To me that's the RIGHT way to do it...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Similarly, I don't think this fellow's smoke grenade is any more "risky" than any other rocket ignition or that its ejection of sparks is any more likely to start a fire than a D motor ignition or any rocket landing on the ground and then firing its ejection charge.

Simply put, the risk is NOT "zero" in anything we do. I don't see the point in arguing semantics or stretching the rules further than they were meant to... the rules against "explosive warheads" and such were put in place to keep numb-nuts from "playing war" with rockets lobbing firecrackers or M-80's or makeshift Molotov cocktails at each other or "other targets"... I think it's a mistake and does a disservice to "arbitrarily" extend the rules beyond what they were originally designed to address. Otherwise the same argument could be used against multi-stagers, airstart motors (all of which are technically "payloads" of the ground-lit first stage) and many other things.
I'm all for additional safety, but NOT for needlessly hamstringing people for no good reason... One thing I can instantly see that would increase safety would be to enclose these smoke grenades within the body tube or an enclosed payload bay or av-bay... perhaps even within their own "mount", perhaps constructed of copper tubing with a cap on either end, with the output end having a hole drilled in it sufficient to allow the passage of the smoke produced without causing excessive pressure build-up (ie 1.5-2 times the diameter of the smoke outlet of the grenade after firing, or something similar). This would prevent a still-burning smoke grenade itself from coming into contact with dry weeds, grass, or leaf litter and such in the event the rocket crashed or landed in an inaccessible area or was lost or required considerable time to locate after landing... while still allowing the smoke to be released from the rocket as it descended. Such a rule COULD be instituted at the club level, and as a launch site landowner myself, that's a rule that I could certainly get behind... while it might present additional constraints in the mounting or use procedures or methods for someone wanting to fly a smoke grenade, it would satisfy the safety concerns while still allowing the activity and not needlessly restricting things or outright "banning" someone from using something. Of course that's a decision up to the landowner and club officials to work out between themselves.

One other thing that should be addressed, not only in regards to this particular subject, but in a larger sense as well-- that is the NEED to modify or postpone allowable activities or events BASED ON THE PREVAILING CONDITIONS AND SITUATION AT THE TIME. For instance, I would see NO PROBLEM launching one of these when the grass is lush and green, and conditions are wet or moist from frequent rain, or in winter with snow on the ground or prolonged winter rains making everything wet. The likelihood of igniting anything on the ground in such conditions would be extremely remote, at best. Similarly, flying in desert or some area with no flammable materials in the area the flights are launching, landing, or potentially crashing, would similarly pose little to no risk... (sort of like the 'bare ground' setback requirements for sparky motors, but of course since these would be active at landing, it's not enough just to clear around the pad for a smoke grenade in a landing rocket, because you have no idea where it's eventually going to land. In a similar vein, if it were hot, dry, and windy, with lots of dry standing vegetation easily ignited and prone to spreading into a wildfire, I wouldn't fly one of these AT ALL, because the conditions are simply too dangerous for it!

Later! OL JR :)


My sentiments exactly!!
First and foremost, safety should be the number one priority before anything else.
Basically, it all comes down to common sense.
Here in Southern California, we have the privilege of being able to launch at Lucerne DRY Lake Bed, which as you can see in our video there isn't a spec of brush or vegetation within miles around. Though this is not the case throughout California, especially with our ongoing drought (please send water care of: California) there are fields that are completely dried out and I wouldn't even consider launching ANYTHING in these areas at this time.

I like your idea of putting smoke tracers inside the airframe this could be done, it would be a little harder, but it would contain the smoke grenade.

Personally, I think all rockets should have some sort of smoke grenade for safety purposes. This will help verify, locate, and track rockets on the range AFTER apogee. Many a times there have been rockets coming in ballistic and non-visible, a tracer makes the rocket visible to everyone! I've even had RSO's come up to me and say, they would like to see more rockets with these types of smoke tracers for visibility/safety reasons especially for higher altitude rockets.

But once again people let's use common sense here.
 
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