weight limit reached for non cert holder?

I am building a Estes levitation and I weighed the rocket with out external fillet (yet), recovery items, and no motor which all weighed a few grams over 1 lbs.

I have deviated from the plans a bit so I'm assuming this is why it's a little heavy.
So if I remember correct non cert holders has a limit of one pound. Correct?

You are OK. The weight limit for a Class 1 rocket is now 53 ounces for a rocket including propellant. You are still limited 4.4 ounces of propellant.

The Federal weight limit is 1500 grams (roughly 3.3 pounds) loaded. That means WITH motor.

Sadly for those here in California (like me), we are further limited to 500 grams for "Model Rocketry". Luckily there are a number of fine "High Power" clubs through out our state so we can launch our bigger birds. On that note, NONE of the Estes PSII builder kits are light enough to qualify for us as a "Model Rocket" without modification.

Here is a handy chart for the Federal standards.

View attachment HPR_metric9c.pdf


Jerome

tightwad said:

You are OK. The weight limit for a Class 1 rocket is now 53 ounces for a rocket including propellant. You are still limited 4.4 ounces of propellant.

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That is what I thought but I just wanted confirmation. I read a older book on rocktry, which had the one lbs limit in it, and I've been reading up on nar rules, but it's been a few months since I've looked up that info. Thanks

AcidPaintball said:

I am building a Estes levitation and I weighed the rocket with out external fillet (yet), recovery items, and no motor which all weighed a few grams over 1 lbs.

I have deviated from the plans a bit so I'm assuming this is why it's a little heavy.
So if I remember correct non cert holders has a limit of one pound. Correct?

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Not at all:
FAA several year back adjusted our flying limits. We are now allowed to fly Model and MPR rockets up to 1500g (53oz or 3.3lbs) total Liftoff mass, powered by no more then 125g (4.4oz) of propellant.
Rockets over 3.3lbs or over 125g of propellant are now HPR requiring certifications and other restrictions.

Micromeister said:

Not at all:
FAA several year back adjusted our flying limits. We are now allowed to fly Model and MPR rockets up to 1500g (53oz or 3.3lbs) total Liftoff mass, powered by no more then 125g (4.4oz) of propellant.
Rockets over 3.3lbs or over 125g of propellant are now HPR requiring certifications and other restrictions.

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sort of. there are HPR motors that fall under 125g of propellant, but i believe it's NFPA that comes in there, not the FAA. Anything over 3.3 pounds and 4.4 ounces the FAA just wants a waiver in place. This is all assuming you don't live in CA, and that NFPA is law where you live.

https://www.doug79.com/stuff/HPR_metric9c.pdf

DizWolf said:

sort of. there are HPR motors that fall under 125g of propellant, but i believe it's NFPA that comes in there, not the FAA. Anything over 3.3 pounds and 4.4 ounces the FAA just wants a waiver in place. This is all assuming you don't live in CA, and that NFPA is law where you live.

https://www.doug79.com/stuff/HPR_metric9c.pdf

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Just to make things a bit clearer: NFPA sets standards but they do not and are not LAW! It is up to the individual states to decide weather or not to adhere to & enact NFPA standards.
It is the FAA that Changed the Definitions for Hobby Rockets & limits by which we all fly. NPFA 1122, 1125 and 1127 are simply written guidelines that the states may or may not hold to.

but all of this Legal crap doesn't change the point that the OP is well within the current Model Rocket guide lines as he is well under the 1500g 125g limit.

It's my personal opinion that NFPA is crap. But that borders on political so I avoid talking about it.

But yea, he's cleanly under the limits for the FAA.

And there's another thing about the rules; there are H power motors that come in under the 125 gram limit like the H238. Rules say you can use it in a rocket that weighs 1 pound with motor or under and fly with the 3.3 pound guys. I do think you have to make the FAR101 phone call but they can't stop you from flying it. Something like a Fat Boy with an H238...wheeeee :happydeer:

There has been no such thing as an "FAR 101 phone call" for many years. You either need a waiver or you are exempt. Period.

dave carver said:

And there's another thing about the rules; there are H power motors that come in under the 125 gram limit like the H238. Rules say you can use it in a rocket that weighs 1 pound with motor or under and fly with the 3.3 pound guys. I do think you have to make the FAR101 phone call but they can't stop you from flying it. Something like a Fat Boy with an H238...wheeeee :happydeer:

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DizWolf said:

It's my personal opinion that NFPA is crap. But that borders on political so I avoid talking about it.

But yea, he's cleanly under the limits for the FAA.

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Plus one. And a Big One at that!

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a lobbying organization created by and for the insurance industry to enact legislation favorable to their insurance company members so as to limit damages and subsequent claims. It's the Golden Rule in action: He Who hath the Gold Shall Make the Rules.

The FAA merged large model rockets and model rockets into Class 1 rockets about 6 years ago which complies with international standards. Class 1 rockets require no notifications. Limits: not to exceed 1500 grams and/or not to exceed 125 grams propellant.

Bob

I read this discussion as one pertaining to FAA notification.
What about NAR level 1 requirements?
This discussion has come up at some of our NAR launches.
So does this or does not this apply at a NAR launch?
From NAR's current website:
https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-1-hpr-certification/
...Who Needs HPR Certification? A person needs High Power certification if they:
... 4. Launches models powered by rocket motors not classified as model rocket motors per NFPA 1122, e.g.: 1. Average thrust in excess of 80.0 Newtons
Looking for some clarity.

kweaver said:

I read this discussion as one pertaining to FAA notification.
What about NAR level 1 requirements?
This discussion has come up at some of our NAR launches.
So does this or does not this apply at a NAR launch?
From NAR's current website:
https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-1-hpr-certification/
...Who Needs HPR Certification? A person needs High Power certification if they:
... 4. Launches models powered by rocket motors not classified as model rocket motors per NFPA 1122, e.g.: 1. Average thrust in excess of 80.0 Newtons
Looking for some clarity.

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After reading this thread, I see some confusion also over what is what. In the end no matter what the FAA allows, one still needs to be HP certified to fly HP motors under the FAA model rocket designation.

rcktnut said:

After reading this thread, I see some confusion also over what is what. In the end no matter what the FAA allows, one still needs to be HP certified to fly HP motors under the FAA model rocket designation.

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You are confusing terminology and different agencies.

The FAA does not care about 'certification', they care about what is flown in the airspace . If it xceeds THEIR definition then you need a waiver. There is no "notification". Waivers are written.

CPSC defines what can be sold as a Model Rocket Motor and if it exceed the legal limit it is a 'banned hazardous substance' and if you are Certified you can buy High Power Rocket Motors that have been tested and legally approved by being certified (see combined motor cert list).

See the simple PDF that list the different limits. Print it. Save it. Read it.

bobkrech said:

The FAA merged large model rockets and model rockets into Class 1 rockets about 6 years ago which complies with international standards. Class 1 rockets require no notifications. Limits: not to exceed 1500 grams and/or not to exceed 125 grams propellant.

Bob

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Thanks, Bob. I missed the memo...

https://www.doug79.com/stuff/HPR_metric9c.pdf is a chart that explains everything.

Bob

Very nice chart! Let me ask a question to clarify. If you are a NAR HPR certified individual and you want to go out and launch with some other NAR members and want to fly a G138 on a lightweight rocket you are OK? The G138 is classified as a HPR motor due to average thrust but it is less than 125 grams of propellant and the total rocket weight is less that 1500 grams.

Bat-mite said:

No, not okay. It is any one of the above, not all of the above. A G138 is HPR due to the thrust being great than 80 Newtons.

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If he's certified, whats the problem? You don't need a waiver to launch HPR. The FAA only cares about 3.3 pounds and 4.4oz of propellant.

DizWolf said:

If he's certified, whats the problem? You don't need a waiver to launch HPR. The FAA only cares about 3.3 pounds and 4.4oz of propellant.

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Oops, I totally misread the question. D'oh! Going to delete that response.

Bat-mite said:

No, not okay. It is any one of the above, not all of the above. A G138 is HPR due to the thrust being great than 80 Newtons.

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I disagree. As described, the rockets falls into FAA class 1 so no waiver needed. It's still classed as a high power rocket as far as flying at a NAR/Tripoli sactioned launch because of the average impulse. Now I would certainly be very conscience of low flying aircraft when flying that motor scooter; don't want to scare any pilots with smoke trails.

<edit> Sorry for piling on Bat-mite. I took too long typing my response !

Bat-mite said:

Oops, I totally misread the question. D'oh! Going to delete that response.

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It happens....seems like you need a law degree to keep up with everything now a days.

It looks like it is very easy to get this confused. It is almost like we need two classes of HPR. A FAA-HPR class and a NFPA-HPR class. Being a HPR flight for one does not necessarily mean you are a HPR for the other. I'm not trying to say you don't need to be certified to fly either, just the FAA waiver is not required in all HPR cases.

tmacklin said:

Plus one. And a Big One at that!

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a lobbying organization created by and for the insurance industry to enact legislation favorable to their insurance company members so as to limit damages and subsequent claims. It's the Golden Rule in action: He Who hath the Gold Shall Make the Rules.

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At the same time, if you study the hobby's history, if G. Harry Stine hadn't hung his hat with the NFPA people fifty years ago, we might still be dealing with a patchwork of draconian limits on our activities driven by state and local fireworks laws.

RoyAtl said:

At the same time, if you study the hobby's history, if G. Harry Stine hadn't hung his hat with the NFPA people fifty years ago, we might still be dealing with a patchwork of draconian limits on our activities driven by state and local fireworks laws.

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Well I think we still fly at the pleasure of the local "authority having jurisdiction": city fire marshall, county judge, etc. I believe NFPA is a good thing that primarily lays the groundwork for the insurance coverage offered by the NAR and Tripoli.

samb said:

Well I think we still fly at the pleasure of the local "authority having jurisdiction": city fire marshall, county judge, etc. I believe NFPA is a good thing that primarily lays the groundwork for the insurance coverage offered by the NAR and Tripoli.

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Having a national set of laws is good. Having a private organization write those laws, and charge to even see them (yes, I know I can register. it's still BS) is terrible and baffling.

JTH28890 said:

Very nice chart! Let me ask a question to clarify. If you are a NAR HPR certified individual and you want to go out and launch with some other NAR members and want to fly a G138 on a lightweight rocket you are OK? The G138 is classified as a HPR motor due to average thrust but it is less than 125 grams of propellant and the total rocket weight is less that 1500 grams.

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Yes, you do not need a FAA waifer. You can launch the rocket at a NAR launch provided you are high power certified, have maintain a 100' separation distance, and have the minimum 1500' separation from inhabited buildings required for high power launches.

DizWolf said:

Having a national set of laws is good. Having a private organization write those laws, and charge to even see them (yes, I know I can register. it's still BS) is terrible and baffling.

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You passed a written test on NFPA 1127 which is the official TRA high power safety code to get your L2. TRA now does a good job describing the High Power G and under motors in their safe launch practices document https://www.tripoli.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=RhLaGq2C+HY=&tabid=326 and the metric I reposted above takes all the thinking out of it.

NFPA is an outgrowth of the insurance underwriting industry. They set the standards that when met allow us to purchase a group $2,000,0000 liability insurance policy for ~$20 per year per person. Those policies allow us to provide land owners insurance that covers them in the event of an accident, and it also covers the launcher. That allows us to launch just about anywhere. Without NFPA and their policies we couldn't launch on most of the fields we launch from.

Bob

bobkrech said:

That allows us to launch just about anywhere. Without NFPA and their policies we couldn't launch on most of the fields we launch from.

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I have no problem with NFPA as a set of regulations for organizations to follow. I take issue with it being turned into law...which gets political and is likely best left to fireside chats.

DizWolf said:

I have no problem with NFPA as a set of regulations for organizations to follow. I take issue with it being turned into law...which gets political and is likely best left to fireside chats.

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Hello David! Wake up sir!
In an earlier post I thought I made it perfectly clear the NFPA does NOT make any LAW period. The council sets up recommended fire protection standards. It is up to each and every State to either except or reject these standards.
NOTHING NFPA does is or ever has been LAW. NFPA-1122, 1125 and 1127 are just that, Guidelines by which both the NAR and Tripoli have a set on the board to help regulate and keep safe our beloved hobby. As Bob mentioned without these guildlines we would NOT be able to fly as we do in just about ALL the States. There is Not much political about it. It's all about making and KEEPING the hobby safe for not only the Rocket flyer but the General public.

Micromeister said:

Hello David! Wake up sir!
In an earlier post I thought I made it perfectly clear the NFPA does NOT make any LAW period. The council sets up recommended fire protection standards. It is up to each and every State to either except or reject these standards.
NOTHING NFPA does is or ever has been LAW. NFPA-1125 and 1127 are just that, Guidelines by which both the NAR and Tripoli have a set on the board to help regulate and keep safe our beloved hobby. As Bob mentioned without these guildlines we would NOT be able to fly as we do in just about ALL the States. There is Not much political about it. It's all about making and KEEPING the hobby safe for not only the Rocket flyer but the General public.

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until a locality adopts it into law. Which many do.