Type/Brand of Glue for Fillets?

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7DeadlySins

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Forgive me for repeating a question that has probably been asked countless times, I have found some answers to this question but they all seem to be geared towards the MPR/HPR side of things (using epoxy or the like). What I would like to know is what glue do you guys typically use for fin fillets on LPR kits? And what techniques do you use?

I am new to the hobby so am figuring things out as I go. Currently the glues I use while building are Medium and Thin CA and Lepage carpenters glue (I find it makes suitably strong joints with balsa). I have used the Lepage yellow glue for the fillets and I fined that it shrinks quite considerably once it is dried, and ends up with holes in the odd places. Would one of the Titebonds (I/II/III, Trim) glues work better? or perhaps another brand such as Gorilla Glue? Or do wood glue fillets need multiple applications to build up properly? The kit I am currently building I have used thinned wood filler to fill the fillet shape over top of the wood glue, but was thinking that there is probably a better way, and that here would be the place to ask.
 
Titebond No Run No Drip glue (formerly Trim and Molding glue). Smooth it with a damp finger. You can put all the fillets on at one time with this because the "no run no drip" bit is true. Unless you really hurry the application, no bubbles/holes either. Great stuff.
 
+1 on the Titebond trim and moulding glue (White bottle, black letters). It spreads out smooth but is very thick and sets fast, makes great fillets for LPR and MPR. It is sometimes hard to find at big box stores, you can find it at some real lumber stores, woodworkers supply places, and on-line.
 
Thanks guys :D

How much does the no run no drip shrink? I will definitely try and pick some up before I attach the fins onto my Photon Disruptor.

Would the Lepage that I have been using still be good to use for applying the fins and other gluing other parts? My method so far has been to put some on and then to put a couple of drops of CA along the length to quick tack the fins in place. The Lepage doesn't have what I would consider quick tack, although if you apply a bit of friction between parts it starts to tack up firm really quickly.
 
There is a use for gorilla glue but it's not for filets. Best way I've found to glue couplers in. I wear gloves because it glue is more like honey in consistency and cover the coupler in a very thin layer. Then using a paper towel that's kinda wet, not dripping but wet, and wipe the inside of the two outer tubes and put together. To make sure the coupler is even between the tubes I mark the coupler half way, drawing the line around the coupler. The Gorilla glue foams up to fill the space with no gaps in contact anywhere. Best thing is Gorilla glue won't seize up putting the tubes together. Because of the foaming action is why I said it's bad for fillets ;)


Oh, yeah, I also recommend that you go to the Titebond brand of glues. I'm using Titebond ll right now and really like it.
 
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I've used Titebond molding & Trim glue a few times with mixed results. several times having to repeat the process to remove rought or air hole pits.

My favorite filllet material is 5-minute Epoxy. I am particularly fond of DEVCON 5-minute or 2-Ton 30-minute Epoxies.
This method and material offer Quick applications, lays smooth every time with NO air bubbles, Adds great strength to the fin/body joints while adding only minimal extra mass. A little alcohol on a rubber gloved finger creates perfect fillets of whatever radis is needed. This is my material & method of choice on all size models from Micro-Maxx to BT-101 Upscales.
 
I may be a bit prejudiced since it's a product I carry, but I really do like EPOXO 88 for fillets on any size model - it's a 2-part paste-type epoxy that sets up real hard in a short time - just mix a small amount for a couple of fillets at a time and smooth out with your finger dipped into rubbing alcohol. It doesn't shrink up and can be sanded, Dremeled, etc if needed.

Andy/ASP
https://www.asp-rocketry.com
 
Thanks for the responses guys :D learning so much about building and finishing techniques lately. Epoxy is something I will keep in mind for later down the road, but right now I'd like to stick to standard glues simply for ease of use for teaching my sons while I learn. If/When I eventually start building MPR/HPR style rockets I will definitely be looking at epoxy as the main adhesion method and for fillets. I have my eye set on working up to something like the Aerotech Initiator starter set, but I am still working on trying to build level 1 Estes kits lol.

As for Titebond, what is the differences between I, II & III? I am sure they all have their strengths in different areas, I just don't know what they are.

If the weather is nice this morning I am going to take the kids out to launch a couple rockets and then will drag them to the hardware stores trying to track down some Titebond lol/
 
I will speak to the one's I have experience with.

Titebond II is an aliphatic wood glue that shrinks alot when applied. The resultant bond is so strongthat when I have popped a fin it has torn the tube, not the glue joint. It will not be the limiting factor in strength, the building materials will be...to me that is a good thing. It does shrink a good bit, so it isn't good for fillets except very shallow fillets, almost not there thickness. I have done this type and will say that they are very strong, but don't have that fillet look that some want.

Titebond olding and trim (no run, no drip) is my fillet glue of choice for LPR and MPR. It does not shrink much (maybe 5%) so it is great for traditional fillets, and again is very strong. It is also useful when you are glueing inside a body tube as it does not contract. Sometimes a glue like Titebond II can pull in the sides of the tube if the CR-tube fit isn't snug or there is some pooling of glue on top of the CR. this is rare, but can be completely avoided using a glue hat does not shrink. There are a few tricks to working with this stiff.
1- turn the bottle upside down and let it sit for 5-10 min before using (helps with air bubbles)
2- work clean, the bottle nozzle, and your finger that you pull the fillets with
3- work quickly, starts to skin in about 30 sec, so that can make for imperfect fillets if you haven't smoothed them by then


Not all hardware stores carry Titebond molding and trim, I get it from Woodcraft. I've heard some ACE stores carry it, but I don't know from experience. Also, Jonrocket.com sells it.
 
Trying to find local stores that would carry Titebond products...seems to be hard to come by in Canada. I know of one place that carries Titebond and Titebond II but not sure about the No Run, No Drip. Might try Amazon Canada, seem to have decent prices on the 16oz and 32oz bottles.
 
Forgive me for repeating a question that has probably been asked countless times, I have found some answers to this question but they all seem to be geared towards the MPR/HPR side of things (using epoxy or the like). What I would like to know is what glue do you guys typically use for fin fillets on LPR kits? And what techniques do you use?

I am new to the hobby so am figuring things out as I go. Currently the glues I use while building are Medium and Thin CA and Lepage carpenters glue (I find it makes suitably strong joints with balsa). I have used the Lepage yellow glue for the fillets and I fined that it shrinks quite considerably once it is dried, and ends up with holes in the odd places. Would one of the Titebonds (I/II/III, Trim) glues work better? or perhaps another brand such as Gorilla Glue? Or do wood glue fillets need multiple applications to build up properly? The kit I am currently building I have used thinned wood filler to fill the fillet shape over top of the wood glue, but was thinking that there is probably a better way, and that here would be the place to ask.

Yep, been asked a million times, but it's understandable... one of those issues that simply crops up over and over and everybody faces sooner or later... maybe they'll add this to the "sticky" section for newbs?? LOL:)

You've pretty much covered the options. I'll limit the discussion to LPR/MPR, since HPR is typically going to use epoxy and microballoons for the SOP fillets. In LPR/MPR, you're choices CAN include epoxy, but IMHO that's overkill, unless you're just in love with the stuff and want to mess around with it. Typically you'd use white glue or yellow wood glue. White glue is thin and runny (especially new Elmers) and hard to get it to stay put without running or sagging, and when it dries it usually leaves a plethora of pits and voids behind that then have to be filled. Yellow wood glue is only slightly better. If you're going to use either one, the best bet is to apply multiple passes of thinly layered fillets one over the other until you build up the thickness that you want. This minimizes pits, voids, runs, sags, drips, etc.

Now, if you're like me and you want "one and done" fillets, one application and they're done, then what you want is TITEBOND MOULDING AND TRIM WOOD GLUE. This is actually a thickened formulation of white glue (PVA IIRC) but it works EXTREMELY WELL for doing fillets. Since it's thicker, it will stay where you put it. It doesn't shrink much at all, unless layed down in VERY heavy, thick layers, which means it's not prone to opening pits and voids and all that like wood or white glue. It also means that when you finish applying the fillet, basically what you see is pretty much exactly what you're going to get. It looks like gray version of yellow wood glue going on, but dries essentially clear. It CAN be sanded, it behaves much like wood glue or white glue, in that sanding tends to make it heat up and get gummy, but the beauty of it is, if you apply it right, there is absolutely NO need to sand it once applied...

I replace the stupid "blade cap tip" that is standard on the bottle with the orange twist "pointed tip" common on bottles of Elmer's white glue or school glue (in fact, this time of year, you can get generic school glue for a quarter a bottle or less... swap bottle tops and donate it to your kid, or a neice, nephew, or neighbor kid doing lots of crafts, and keep the orange twist-open pin-point applicator tip on the Titebond Moulding and Trim Glue (TMTG). I like these because they give you a very precise applicator, though you DO have to squeeze the bottle pretty hard to get the thicker glue to come out of it... I lay down a thin, even bead alongside the fin or launch lug on either side of it, then swipe a slightly dampened finger down the length of it to smooth the glue out into a well-blended fillet. Wipe any excess off on a paper towel, and repeat on all the other fins. If you see anything that doesn't look right-- needs a little extra or any spots or anything where excess glue smeared over or something, a damp paper towel will take it right off, or a little more can be added and smoothed and blended out to make the perfect fillet... once you have them looking exactly like what you want the finished fillet to look like, set the rocket aside to dry-- the fillets will look exactly like that when you're done-- no need to sand whatsoever, if you put them on right.

What's beautiful about this stuff is, you can do ALL the fillets at one time and then set the rocket aside to dry, and they'll stay put... no more having to carefully level the rocket and only do two adjacent fillets on two adjoining fins at the same time, so that the runny white or wood glue doesn't run, drip, sag, or otherwise screw up the works. It's as close to 'push button' fillets as you can get. Typical fillets are simply "one and done"... if you're making ESPECIALLY LARGE, well rounded fillets, two applications IS advisable, though... nothing is absolutely bulletproof, and if you lay down TOO thick of a fillet at one time in one application, even with TMTG, it CAN open up pits or voids... they're MUCH easier to fill and close though than with regular white or wood glue, however.

Also, if you're not familiar with the "double glue joint" method for attaching fins, it'd be worth your while to learn... apply a thin layer of wood or white glue to the fin root edge and the tube line where the fin will go. Allow to dry for 30 minutes to an hour. Apply a second thin layer of glue to the root edge of the fin, carefully align it with the marks on the tube, and press the fin straight down onto the lines/marks and hold it 20 seconds... Presto, the fin will pretty much "instantly" grab and lock up, gluing the fin in place... all the convenience and speed of CA, without the brittleness and age deterioration and weak shear strength CA is famous for...

Later and good luck! OL JR :)
 
Thanks guys :D

How much does the no run no drip shrink? I will definitely try and pick some up before I attach the fins onto my Photon Disruptor.

Would the Lepage that I have been using still be good to use for applying the fins and other gluing other parts? My method so far has been to put some on and then to put a couple of drops of CA along the length to quick tack the fins in place. The Lepage doesn't have what I would consider quick tack, although if you apply a bit of friction between parts it starts to tack up firm really quickly.

Not familiar with Lepage... assuming it's similar to Aileene's Tacky Glue or something similar... should be okay... is it PVA (white) glue?? The only thing you really want to stay away from, IMHO, is school glue and CA (super glue). School glue is pretty weak and soft, not worth the trouble because it'll fail when you need it most, and CA is just a mess for construction-- it has it's place, but not for "structural parts" IMHO... I like CA to harden balsa parts like nosecones and transitions, and for tacking on little detail parts and "greebles" on scale and fantasy-type rockets... but for structural, load bearing joints, IMHO the stuff is awful. CA doesn't age well-- it becomes brittle over time. CA is also particularly weak in the SHEAR plane-- CA's greatest strength is in TENSION, when two parts are trying to pull straight apart away from each other. Unfortunately, MOST of the loads on our fins are shear or translational-- IOW, when the rocket takes off, the wind is pushing on the leading edge and trying to rip the fin off, assisted by gravity and multiple-gees of acceleration. In flight, as the fins stabilize the rocket, the wind is pushing the fins from the side, trying to "lay them over" onto the tube, forces which must be transferred into the tube to turn the direction of flight of the rocket. On landing, usually the fins hit first (on most "standard" type designs) on the rear, outward tip edge, and have to bear the force of suddenly stopping the descending rocket, which is a particularly strong SHEAR FORCE jolt... particularly the weakest type of joint for CA and the most likely point that it will break. CA also seals off the pores of the balsa wood, as it is easily drawn into the wood pores by capillary action where it rapidly "kicks off" due to the limited moisture present in the wood. Once the pores are sealed off, wood glue cannot penetrate them to get a good bond with the wood. Therefore, CA will weaken the glue joint by limiting the ability of the wood glue or white glue to get a good, deep bond with the wood itself. It's about like trying to glue plastic together with wood glue-- the wood glue (or white glue) cannot penetrate, so therefore the bond is extremely weak...

I'd recommend dumping the CA altogether for attaching fins. I know some people do this "mixing glue" stuff but it's a really weird process and I simply cannot fathom how it works worth a rip... the two products are basically incompatible, especially when it comes to making the strongest joints possible from either of them.

If you want the convenience of "instantly attached fins", use the DOUBLE-GLUE JOINT method. Here's how. Get an egg carton from the refrigerator (once you're out of eggs, instead of tossing it, save it-- it's a handy rocket tool!) Invert the foam egg container so it's upside down, and then using your hobby knife, cut slits across the egg cups perpendicular to the long axis of the egg carton. These will make dandy clamps to hold your fins for the double glue joint first application. Once you have your fins ready to glue on the rocket, take them one by one and apply a bead of glue evenly (but not too thick or thin, just a nice, smooth, slightly rounded bead) to the root edge, and spread it evenly with your finger... rake any excess glue on your finger back gently onto the bead so it's smooth, the root edge completely covered, and slightly rounded. Pinch the egg cup in the carton bottom slightly and the cut slit will open up slightly, and slide the fin in carefully, root edge up and level, so the wood glue doesn't run to either end of the fin root. Repeat for all the other fins. Now take the rocket body tube-- you should have all your "fin lines" drawn on the tube in their proper spots, and if the fins are forward of the rear edge of the body tube, reference or hash marks to show their location on the body tube at the rear and/or front edge of the fins. I also highly recommend you lightly sand the body tube with 220 grit sandpaper along the fin line and about 1/8 inch or so on either side of it, to rough up the glassine and maximimize the bond strength of the wood glue. Now, apply a similar thin, even bead of wood glue to the fin line where the fin will attach, and spread it thinly and evenly with your finger where the fin will mount, and slightly wider than the fin (where the fillets will be. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it should be thin and even. You can smooth the glue out by wiping the tube very lightly with your fingertip toward the fin line, so that the glue is slightly thicker over the fin line, and feathered out smooth and flush to the surface at the edge of the sanded areas of the glassine. Wipe any excess glue off your finger onto a paper towel between fin applications. You can do them all at once, since you basically just want a THIN, EVEN coat of glue. Set the tube aside to dry; the "saddle" between the egg cups of a second egg carton (assuming there's not enough room on the first) is ideal... just make sure the glue areas overhang the end of the carton so the tube isn't glued to it. :)

Let the glue dry for about 20-30 minutes, at a minimum you want the glue extremely tacky (nearly dry). Overnight or longer won't hurt anything... an hour works well. Now, apply a SECOND thin, EVEN coat of glue to the fin root edge. Take the fin and tube and carefully align all the marks BEFORE touching the fin to the tube. Carefully lower the fin down til it touches the tube, and make sure all your marks are properly aligned with the fin-- make any necessary adjustments very quickly, and hold the fin in place for 20-30 seconds, lightly pressing it to the tube. The fin will almost INSTANTLY stick to the tube, and in 20-30 seconds it will be WELL bonded to the tube. Any little droplets of glue squeezed out from under the root edge can then be smoothed out with your fingertip into a mini-fillet-- I sometimes add a very thin little bead of yellow wood glue on either side and spread it very thin and evenly with the droplets squeezed out, to make a very thin, small, even, smooth fillet. You can now move on to the next fin. I usually do mine in pairs (on four-finned rockets) and then use clothespins to clamp them to a flat strip of balsa or something to ensure they're on straight. Let this dry an hour or so, and you can do the next pair of fins. For three-finned rockets, the old "eyeball trick" is good enough.

Once the fins dry overnight, a quick fillet on each side of every fin is quickly and easily done with TMTG... takes all of two minutes to do all the fillets, and set the rocket aside to dry for a few hours or overnight, and it's ready for primer...

How strong are these double-glue joints?? Stronger than either the balsa or the paper tube! Stronger even than a papered balsa fin... I once had a two-stage rocket that the upper stage went wonky after ignition... it spiralled out of control and ended up hitting the ground flat under thrust-- ie on its side, FIN FIRST (fin down). It hit at probably better than 100 mph I would estimate, with some forward velocity and downward at high speed, hit the ground, bounced back up to about ten feet high, and took off straight in "cruise missile" mode (we think it was thrust vectoring by a bad nozzle on the motor caused this weird flight). The fins were 1/8 balsa that had been papered using my "taco shell" method, with white glue and regular printer paper. The fin that hit the ground and absorbed all the impact force of the rocket, on hard clay, had its outer and forward 1/4 to 1/3 of the fin completely disintegrate into balsa and paper dust-- it was just GONE, from the initial impact... as the rocket kept moving, it eventually sheared the fin off the tube... BUT, the glue joint had NOT turned loose, nor the balsa broken... instead, the outer layer of the tube, glassine, and underlying paper layer ply, had ripped completely off the tube on either side of the fillet edge... the fillet and the glue joint itself was still PERFECTLY INTACT! Had the fin not been partially destroyed, I could have just applied a goodly layer of white glue and glue it RIGHT BACK ON the side of the rocket over the exposed underlying layers of paper tubing beneath it from which it was torn. As it was, I had to make a new fin (no biggie, cut one from a pattern and spare balsa, sanded and papered it, and built up the area with a few light thin applications of wood glue, then glued the new fin on. A little sanding and painting and it was like it never happened.

When your glue joint is stronger than the materials being joined, there's NO POINT in trying to go STRONGER... the tube or the fin will break before the fin breaks off, so that's not the weakest link, and any chain always breaks at the weakest link first.

Try it, I think you'll really like it... I know I was VERY skeptical of this method when I first read it as a teenager in G. Harry Stine's "Handbook of Model Rocketry"... I thought it was old-fogey stuff, some sort of super-hard way of doing something, and besides, "slathering a thick layer of wet wood glue over the joint HAS to be stronger", right?? Boy was I wrong! First time I tried a double-glue joint, I was sold... a real "slap to the forehead" sort of moment.

Keep your CA for tacking detail (non-structural non-load bearing) parts and for hardening balsa cones and transitions... wood glue BY FAR makes the strongest joints between wood/wood and wood/paper... white glue is best for paper/paper joints, BTW...

Later and good luck! OL JR :)
 
There is a use for gorilla glue but it's not for filets. Best way I've found to glue couplers in. I wear gloves because it glue is more like honey in consistency and cover the coupler in a very thin layer. Then using a paper towel that's kinda wet, not dripping but wet, and wipe the inside of the two outer tubes and put together. To make sure the coupler is even between the tubes I mark the coupler half way, drawing the line around the coupler. The Gorilla glue foams up to fill the space with no gaps in contact anywhere. Best thing is Gorilla glue won't seize up putting the tubes together. Because of the foaming action is why I said it's bad for fillets ;)


Oh, yeah, I also recommend that you go to the Titebond brand of glues. I'm using Titebond ll right now and really like it.

I haven't tried this, but I might. Couplers SHOULD NOT be glued together with yellow wood glue of any type-- it's too prone to "freezing up" when halfway installed. What happens is, the glue is spread VERY THINLY between the mating parts at the same time those parts, usually paper tubing in rocket body tubes and couplers, are absorbing moisture out of the liquid glue. This combination of thin, tight layers and moisture wicking can cause the glue to "instantly" dry or lock up, making the parts impossible to move into their final positions. White glue CAN do this, which is why you TYPICALLY will use a THICK layer of glue (to thoroughly wet the parts, and lubricate the joint as it slips together with lots of wet glue, and give an ample supply of moisture to soak into the paper parts.) It's not UNHEARD of for even white glue to stick halfway through the process, so really, using a glue that doesn't rely on water evaporation or wicking for curing is a better idea. Epoxy is good for installing couplers as well, for the same reasons-- it cures by a chemical reaction, not via evaporation of water "carrier/solvent". The liquid glue will remain liquid until it cures. Urethane glue (Gorilla glue) works by the same principle, except water (moisture) causes it to foam up and "cure"...

Another excellent use of gorilla glue is to secure weight in nosecones... since it doesn't "evaporate" to dry, poor air circulation isn't a problem... just squirt some gorilla glue into the nosecone once the weight is in place in the tip, and then put a drop or two of water into the nosecone with it, and stand it up to allow it to foam up and cure...

Have you experienced any problems with the glue foaming up out of the joint or between the tubes?? Just wondering. I know I've also read about people using EXTREMELY THIN layers of gorilla glue to attach plastic wraps to kits like the Saturn V... extremely thin so any foaming effects are minimized, which would open up ugly gaps in the wrap edges... but it's FAR less likely to dissolve or heat-soften and distort the wrap than either CA or plastic modeling glue...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Wow, thanks for those replies :D so much information. The Lepage glue I currently use is suregrip carpenters glue (yellow glue) and while I like the bond it makes I haven't been impressed with it's tack and the amount it shrinks. It says it has high initial tack but that hasn't been my experience. It does set up really quick with a bit of friction. For instance, in building a Estes Phoenix Bird I coated half of the balsa tube coupler in a thin layer of the lepage glue, put it in and twisted it back and forth, within about 15 seconds it felt like I was trying to turn it through thick syrup and after 30 seconds it wouldn't move anymore.

Will definitely be picking up some Titebond (II and TMTG) for the future. I also don't like the blade style cap and have a collection of twist top style, in various bead sizes to switch out for. I have also already witnessed the lack of shear strength in CA. it works good for tacking but not for strength. Built an Estes Skydart and CA'd the shock cord and lug ring to the body and I guess the CA made the shock cord too brittle and when it launched the force of ejection sheared the shock cord right off where it met the hole in the body. Haven't CA hardened any of my balsa nose cones yet..is it something that definitely should be done?

I haven't heard of the double glue joint method before but will now be trying it the next time I glue fins on. The Handbook of Model Rocketry is on my Amazon to-buy list. Thanks again for the information, yourself and the others that have posted. Using TMTG sounds much easier then trying to make it with Yellow wood glue and then build it up with wood filler and a lot of sanding to get it to look nice. It really is too bad there isn't a sticky newb section for techniques, it would be a great resource for someone like myself. Things like papering fins seem like a foreign term to me lol.
 
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Thanks for the responses guys :D learning so much about building and finishing techniques lately. Epoxy is something I will keep in mind for later down the road, but right now I'd like to stick to standard glues simply for ease of use for teaching my sons while I learn. If/When I eventually start building MPR/HPR style rockets I will definitely be looking at epoxy as the main adhesion method and for fillets. I have my eye set on working up to something like the Aerotech Initiator starter set, but I am still working on trying to build level 1 Estes kits lol.

This is wise... ESPECIALLY if kids are involved in the build. Epoxy has its place to be sure, but for LPR and most MPR fillets, it's really overkill IMHO... course for some folks, it DOES work better... it's way more forgiving of large fillets than even TMTG is, and ESPECIALLY over regular yellow or white glue.

Thing is, if you're working with epoxy, you DON'T want that stuff on your bare skin-- over time, it WILL cause epoxy sensitivity (basically, becoming allergic to the stuff) and at that point you'll get sick even smelling the stuff... Kids don't need to be exposed to the stuff either. If you're going to work with epoxies, you NEED NITRILE gloves (NOT regular latex gloves-- they have microscopic "pores" that will allow the chemicals in the epoxy to penetrate into your skin-- nitrile does not). You shouldn't be working with it bare-handed or bare fingered. The alcohol dipped fingertip method works well to smooth it out, just make sure it's a GLOVED fingertip! For LPR/MPR using standard paper tubes and wooden fins and fiberboard or cardstock centering rings and parts, wood glue and white glue are actually stronger than epoxy and urethane glue joints, because they will penetrate into the materials better and bond them together better. Epoxy is a MUST in HPR, especially once one gets into composite materials (other than plywood and heavy wall paper tubing).

As for Titebond, what is the differences between I, II & III? I am sure they all have their strengths in different areas, I just don't know what they are.

If the weather is nice this morning I am going to take the kids out to launch a couple rockets and then will drag them to the hardware stores trying to track down some Titebond lol/

That's the $64 million dollar question. The Titebond website has some rather arcane information on various formulations and their relative strengths in lab tests in various types of bonds (tension, shear, compression, etc.) but reading between the lines is kinda difficult. Titebond I is pretty much the "old type" wood glue like you'd have had in the 70's. Okay, but Titebond II in my experience makes a stronger, better joint, and just "works better"... it doesn't seem as runny and seems to dry a little faster than old Titebond I. TBI is probably excellent for gluing boards together when clamped up like for cutting boards and stuff, but for rocketry, it's just not as good IMHO. Titebond III is also not as good IMHO... seems runnier than TBII and a little weaker... Elmers yellow wood glue is pretty close to TBII, maybe halfway between TBII and TBIII. I picked up a bottle of TBII "dark" wood glue (for darker woods) and used it for years until the last part of the bottle "clabbered" in the bottle over the winter and I had to toss it. LOVED the stuff... I'm using some leftover Elmer's yellow carpenters wood glue until I use it up and get another bottle of TBII.

BTW, I suggest storing your bottles of glue TIP DOWN... this keeps the glue 'fresher' in my experience, plus, if you swap on the orange school glue "twist top" caps instead of the regular wood glue "push on blade/slit caps" they put on all the wood glue, it will keep the remaining glue that sticks up in the cap from drying out and making the tip extremely hard to use. I keep all my adhesives in a tightly-packed box, so they hold each other upright nicely inverted...

Later and good luck! OL JR :)
 
JR you are a wealth of information :)

I did not know that about latex/nitrile gloves and am glad I found out now rather than later (after I started using epoxy on larger kits)

I had always thought TBIII would have been the 'best' of the line, but it seems like that is not the case. Thanks for the tip of storing them upside down,
 
Trying to find local stores that would carry Titebond products...seems to be hard to come by in Canada. I know of one place that carries Titebond and Titebond II but not sure about the No Run, No Drip. Might try Amazon Canada, seem to have decent prices on the 16oz and 32oz bottles.

Yep, hard to find, but worth the effort... a well-kept bottle (don't let it freeze--it'll ruin it, like any other wood or white glue) will last a LONG time...

It USED to be pretty common-- walmart and the big box home improvement warehouse stores... but then they quit carrying it-- devote that shelf space to another row of standard five-n-dime wood glue (which they already had 30 bottles of anyway in various brands... go figure!) Guess it's one less SKU number in their inventory and one less thing to have to stock and reorder and all that... lousy stores...

Anyway, ACE hardware, Menard's, or local mom-n-pop hardware stores are your best bet... also, might try industrial or woodworking supply stores in your area, like Fastenal or Graingers (or equivalent) or other such stores...

As a last resort, it can be had online from several sources... it's good stuff, but sort of a "niche" product that the stupid "mainstream idiot" type home improvement stores don't want to be bothered to carry...

good luck! OL JR :)
 
Yep, hard to find, but worth the effort... a well-kept bottle (don't let it freeze--it'll ruin it, like any other wood or white glue) will last a LONG time...

It USED to be pretty common-- walmart and the big box home improvement warehouse stores... but then they quit carrying it-- devote that shelf space to another row of standard five-n-dime wood glue (which they already had 30 bottles of anyway in various brands... go figure!) Guess it's one less SKU number in their inventory and one less thing to have to stock and reorder and all that... lousy stores...

Anyway, ACE hardware, Menard's, or local mom-n-pop hardware stores are your best bet... also, might try industrial or woodworking supply stores in your area, like Fastenal or Graingers (or equivalent) or other such stores...

As a last resort, it can be had online from several sources... it's good stuff, but sort of a "niche" product that the stupid "mainstream idiot" type home improvement stores don't want to be bothered to carry...

good luck! OL JR :)

The only store that I have seen it at in the past is Richelieu's, haven't looked at Fastenal yet but their website doesn't show that they carry it. Amazon.ca lists them from what I would consider a reasonable price (and free shipping over $25..more incentive to buy other thi

https://www.amazon.ca/Franklin-2404-Titebond-Molding-16-Ounces/dp/B0002YXDXU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409426369&sr=8-1&keywords=titebond+molding

https://www.amazon.ca/Franklin-5003-Titebond-Premium-8-Ounces/dp/B0000223US/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1409427729&sr=8-4&keywords=titebond+II
 
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The only store that I have seen it at in the past is Richelieu's, haven't looked at Fastenal yet but their website doesn't show that they carry it. Amazon.ca lists them from what I would consider a reasonable price (and free shipping over $25..more incentive to buy other thi

https://www.amazon.ca/Franklin-2404-Titebond-Molding-16-Ounces/dp/B0002YXDXU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409426369&sr=8-1&keywords=titebond+molding

https://www.amazon.ca/Franklin-5003-Titebond-Premium-8-Ounces/dp/B0000223US/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1409427729&sr=8-4&keywords=titebond+II

Yep, that's the stuff... good luck on the hunt. Might check the JonRocket site someone else mentioned... might be a better deal, and support a rocket vendor.

I don't understand WHY these stupid big box stores do what they do... I guess they've succeeded so well in running the mom-n-pop places out of business that now they feel like they can just sell what they want to sell and the customer can buy it, do without, or go rot... So I increasingly find myself shopping at whatever little places I can still find that DO carry the stuff I want and need. To heck with the big box stores...

And they wonder why their market share and profits are taking a huge hit... serves them right...

Later and good luck on the hunt! OL JR :)
 
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I just started using the Titebond TM No-Run No-Drip glue a few LPR builds ago. I have found that yes, a single application does nice looking fillets, but I think adhesion is an issue. Normally, I would use regular carpenter's yellow glue for both attaching a fin and fillets. Applying several (4-6) fillet application on each side of the fin/bt areas. This has always resulted in a very strong bond. A popped fin usually taking some of the cardboard tube with it! Not so on the fins with the TB Trim glue. The bond seems to break. So, I'm going back to several applications of the regular carpenter's glue, then a final TB Trim finish for good looks.


Jerome :)
 
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I use a few layers of Elmer's Carpenter Glue to build up a structural fillet. And to get it all smooth, I mix Elmer's Wood Filler with a little bit of water to get a consistency of thin pancake batter and spread it on. After that dries I use something round as a sanding block to get them rounded perfectly. For low power I usually use a chopstick as a sanding block. But I have also used dowels, round pencils, even spent motor casings depending on what size fillet I want.
 
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Just to add a couple more cents to the discussion, here is my take on glues by type:

Elmers white: Decent stuff for LPR (don't use school glue or easy clean) but does shrink. It bonds to wood/paper. One application it is great for, is covering things with paper. I took the funny pages of my news paper and laminated it over a rocket in lieu of paint. Water down the paint, add food coloring if you want a tint, then paint it on the rocket. Then apply the paper, and paint over it again. The process is just like applying fiberglass.

TiteBond I/II/III: Only used Titebond II. Great stuff but it does shrink and it does leave holes. Good for LPR, MPR and believe it or not, can handle the lower end of HPR. It bonds to wood and paper well. Not to plastic and I assume not to fiberglass (of course you use epoxy for that).

Hobby Epoxy: This is the stuff in tubes and syringes at the hobby stores, big box stores and hardware stores. It is marketed by the set time (5 Min, 15 Min, etc.) It bonds to most stuff, but not great to plastic. It doesn't shrink and very few if any bubble pits. The longer the set, the more time for bubbles to go away or be poked at with a pin. With plastic, you have to rough it up a lot since you're not getting much more than a mechanical bond with plastic. The type of plastic changes things too. FYI, low power NCs are usually Polystyrene and high power are usually Polypropylene.

Cyanoacrylate (AKA: CA, Superglue, Krazyglue): I don't use it a lot, but it is good for tacking parts on until you apply your main glue, as it sets VERY quickly. You may see on the package a guy being held in the air hanging on something he glued with it. This is tensile strength, and it is very strong here. But it is not strong against shear forces (fins). That is why we don't use it for fins except to tack it on. I always keep it in my field box to make quick repairs (even fins, though it usually breaks on landing).

Gorilla Glue: Very sticky and strong stuff. It is water reactive, so dampening the parts works well. It foams and expands. If the parts are held together, it bonds strong. If not, it expands and pushes them apart. If you mix in some water, it expands a lot and turns into a foam (if not contained). It probably expands between 4-8 times volume. It sticks pretty well to plastic (PS and PP). I use it for NC weight. I spritz the inside of the cone, wet the weight, then put them in in layers with weight, glue, weight, glue, etc. It works great for this. I also use it as a foam filler. I used soda straws on a steampunk a month ago, but the bendy straws were too week. So I mixed gorilla glue with water, injected the straws with it using a syringe, then bent the straws and let it cure. It was light but strong.

Hope my little synopsis helps. We are always finding out different stuff about glues. I just learned about the Molding and Trim glue in this thread. I will have to look for it in the stores.
 
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I had always thought TBIII would have been the 'best' of the line, but it seems like that is not the case.

It's my understanding that TBIII is waterproof whereas I and II are not. Shouldn't be an issue for rocketry.
 
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I'm with John - epoxy for almost everything, even very small LPR. No shrinkage, no pinholes, good control over the fillet profile. It's *not* overkill; you can control the mass easily. I had 9 gram B Payload airframes this year that used epoxy fillets. My favorite brand for LPR use is Z-Poxy. A big clue is to remove the outer layer of tube before attaching fins. With classic Estes tubes the interface to the outer wrap is actually the weakest thing and it will delaminate long before the glue joint breaks.
 
I know you have the answer to your question already, but what I like to do even with wood glue fillets is tape off the fillet. A lot guy here do the same for epoxy, but even with wood glue fillets it looks great. Not as messy and you don.t have to wipe anything when you are done.
 
Hope my little synopsis helps. We are always finding out different stuff about glues. I just learned about the Molding and Trim glue in this thread. I will have to look for it in the stores.

Thanks for the synopsis, always nice to get everything in somewhat the same place. Glad to know that my noob question thread was able to help others out :)

I know you have the answer to your question already, but what I like to do even with wood glue fillets is tape off the fillet. A lot guy here do the same for epoxy, but even with wood glue fillets it looks great. Not as messy and you don.t have to wipe anything when you are done.

That's a great tip, will definitely try that out when filling out the fillets on my next build.
 
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