Altitude limitations in Canada

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

morlock

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
630
Reaction score
4
I am starting to design a two stage rocket. Open Rocket sims the apogee at 750m. This brings me to an important question at this point:

How high can l fly my model rockets without a certification or waiver?
 
We don't have waiver in Canada, it's call "AUTHORIZATION TO LAUNCH HIGH POWER AND ADVANCED HIGH POWER ROCKET"

as long as your rocket is 3.3 pounds or less and the combine total impulse of all the motors is 160 N/s or less you are ok


here a link to a PDF with the rules

https://www.canadianrocketry.org/files/tc_hpr_reqs_jan00.pdf

extract

Model Rocket: (Per Exemption from Section
602.43 of the Canadian Aviation
Regulations Letter dated September
28th, 1998) a rocket:
(a) equipped with model rocket
engines that will not generate a
total impulse exceeding 160
newton-seconds,
(b) of a gross weight, including
engines, not exceeding 1500g (3.3
pounds), and
(c) equipped with a parachute or
other device capable of retarding
its descent.
 
Last edited:
So, as long as it qualifies as a model rocket, there is no altitude limit?
 
Last edited:
Yes, if it is classified as a model the only limit is physics.

The CAR-ACF website shows the single stage, single motor G impulse altitude record set in 2005 as 1838.55 meters. The complex G impulse record set in 2012 is 497.4 meters.

With all the new motors and lightweight electronics available these days there is a chance someone could beat those records.

A minimum diameter rocket with the 24mm 6 grain 144Ns G65 might come close if the rocket weight was optimized.

Jumping up to 29mm motors, a nice minimum diameter optimized weight rocket flying the 159Ns 3 grain G54 Red Lightning would also be interesting.
 
Last edited:
Its a case of using common sense. Airport controllers don't care about a rocket going up as long as its not near a full size aircraft, but they don't like it hanging up there on a big parachute in controlled air space. If you don't fly near airports or heavily used air space don't worry about it.


Richard
 
You have to be at least 10km away of any airport as suggested in the model rocketry code.
 
Thank you all for your answers. These are all the conclusions I drew from common sense, by in my search of the regulations, I was not sure about whether or not there was a hard limit for altitude.

I'll stay away enough from airports!
 
You have to be at least 10km away of any airport as suggested in the model rocketry code.

Witch association code ? model rocketry code are not the law. Beside their a difference between an airfield (Joliette) and an Airport ( Pierre-Eliot-Trudeau ) if the airfield don't have an "International Air Transport Association airport code starting with a Y in Canada , it's not an airport

this is what the law said for High Power, so I deduct it will not be more severe for model ?

"9.13. No person shall launch a high power rocket that creates a hazard to aircraft. "


Transport Canada ask for 5 nautical miles from an airfield for High Power. At least this is what they ask me.
 
Last edited:
Witch association code ? model rocketry code are not the law. Beside their a difference between an airfield (Joliette) and an Airport ( Pierre-Eliot-Trudeau ) As information we launch High Power at 5km of the Joliette airfield.

I think it's from the NAR code and no the code is not a law, it's just good safety practice suggestion.
 
Each engine shall not exceed 160 Ns - It does not specify clustered motors.

Not completely true. You can run clusters of course, but the total Thrust cannot exceed 160 Ns (100% G impulse) but if you cluster two 100% G's together you are in HPR L1 territory (two G's = H impulse) and there are specific rules to follow in regards to HPR in Canada.

I'll be honest with you. A single 100% G impulse engine is pretty jammy. Any mid power rocket you build is going to go like a raped ape with that kind of motor.
 
Witch association code ? model rocketry code are not the law. Beside their a difference between an airfield (Joliette) and an Airport ( Pierre-Eliot-Trudeau ) if the airfield don't have an "International Air Transport Association airport code starting with a Y in Canada , it's not an airport

this is what the law said for High Power, so I deduct it will not be more severe for model ?

"9.13. No person shall launch a high power rocket that creates a hazard to aircraft. "


Transport Canada ask for 5 nautical miles from an airfield for High Power. At least this is what they ask me.

The law in Canada USED to be (30 years ago when model rocket engines were also severely restricted... not sure if it has changed or been relaxed but I suspect not) 5 nautical miles from the center of the nearest airport. That wasn't just for HPR, but for all flying objects... RC planes, kites, or anything else. It's rarely applied because most people aren't stupid enough to fly a kite at the end of an active runway but you could expect an official visit if you interfered with air traffic. You may see this applied more with the increase in drones in the hands of the stupid.
 
Not completely true. You can run clusters of course, but the total Thrust cannot exceed 160 Ns (100% G impulse) but if you cluster two 100% G's together you are in HPR L1 territory (two G's = H impulse) and there are specific rules to follow in regards to HPR in Canada.

I'll be honest with you. A single 100% G impulse engine is pretty jammy. Any mid power rocket you build is going to go like a raped ape with that kind of motor.

When I was in Quebec last, I noticed a small rural rocket enthusiast group launching with clustered Gs and they were under the impression that the law was written in English - so it didn't apply to Quebec. They were not affiliated CAR or a club. They routinely flew like this. The group gave numerous examples of irregularities in the written law that justified their actions.

Police, municipal workers and community all seemed happy with the results as well and came out to support.

I agree - the law is the law. But I do wonder sometimes....
 
Last edited:
When I was in Quebec last, I noticed a small rural rocket enthusiast group launching with clustered Gs and they were under the impression that the law was written in English - so it didn't apply to Quebec. They were not affiliated CAR or a club. They routinely flew like this. The group gave numerous examples of irregularities in the written law that justified their actions.

Police, municipal workers and community all seemed happy with the results as well and came out to support.

I agree - the law is the law. But I do wonder sometimes....

The law didn't apply in Quebec because it was written in English??? Really? I wonder what a judge would say about that?
 
When I was in Quebec last, I noticed a small rural rocket enthusiast group launching with clustered Gs and they were under the impression that the law was written in English - so it didn't apply to Quebec. They were not affiliated CAR or a club. They routinely flew like this. The group gave numerous examples of irregularities in the written law that justified their actions.

Police, municipal workers and community all seemed happy with the results as well and came out to support.

I agree - the law is the law. But I do wonder sometimes....

The law didn't apply in Quebec because it was written in English??? Really? I wonder what a judge would say about that?


Well, I'm going to try to avoid this being a political post as best as I can, but last time I checked Federal Law supersedes provincial law every time. I know Quebec considers themselves separate from Canada in alot of ways, but legally they don't.

Two G's = one H motor.
You can't fly H motors or higher without proper certification, and you can only fly a H motor or higher rocket if one has clearance from Transport Canada and it's in a club launch.
 
Last edited:
The NAR safety code caps the impulse at 320ns- a max H.

The high power requirement says if a motor (a single motor) has over 160ns (minimum H) or over 80n average thrust, then it's high power and if the total impulse is over 320ns then it's also high power.

Two Gs with less than 80n average thrust is legal, and it's a known loophole that's used a lot.

That's why the model rocket launch site size chart has '2 Gs' in the last column.


This thread is from 2014, did anyone notice? :D
 
The NAR safety code caps the impulse at 320ns- a max H.

The high power requirement says if a motor (a single motor) has over 160ns (minimum H) or over 80n average thrust, then it's high power and if the total impulse is over 320ns then it's also high power.

Two Gs with less than 80n average thrust is legal, and it's a known loophole that's used a lot.

That's why the model rocket launch site size chart has '2 Gs' in the last column.

This thread is from 2014, did anyone notice? :D



Canada and US have different regulations, but thank you for your post.

In Canada we look at the total Impulse of a motor, not the thrust curve.

For example, a Estes G80 has:

77.6 N thrust average
108.5 N peak thrust
136.6 Ns TOTAL IMPULSE.

Running two of these exceed the G impulse category. There are no G motors that you can cluster and still be legal to fly under model and sport rocketry in Canada. Cluster two G motors classifies the TOTAL IMPULSE as H (160 to 320 N total impulse), and launching this kind of motor configuration falls under High Power Rocketry in Canada.

The highest impulse motors you can cluster legally within model and sport rocketry in Canada is a pair of Estes F50. Two of these are still just within the maximum G impulse category.

What you Americans have for regulations is of no concern to us. That's your regulations. We have our own regulations, and we follow are own.


 
Last edited:
Okay. Interesting - glad that we cleared this up....



Federal Law:
[FONT=&quot]model rocket[/FONT][FONT=&quot] means a rocket that[/FONT]
  • (a) is equipped with model rocket motors that will not generate a total impulse exceeding 160 N.s,
  • (b) has a gross weight, including motors, not exceeding 1 500 g (3.3 pounds), and
  • (c) is equipped with a parachute or other device capable of retarding its descent; (modèle réduit de fusée)


 
Okay. Interesting - glad that we cleared this up....



Federal Law:
[FONT=&amp]model rocket[/FONT][FONT=&amp] means a rocket that[/FONT]
  • (a) is equipped with model rocket motors that will not generate a total impulse exceeding 160 N.s,
  • (b) has a gross weight, including motors, not exceeding 1 500 g (3.3 pounds), and
  • (c) is equipped with a parachute or other device capable of retarding its descent; (modèle réduit de fusée)

PERFECT!

Now I'm going to request this thread locked before I see another NAR reference and really SNAP.
 
Oh! I know. If you look at the NAR Safety code....




...why are you looking at me like that? :kill:
 
Bottom line: It's been beaten to death already and NAR and CAR rules have differences. CAR rules take precedence in Canada.

Locked since question answered.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top