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https://www.26nosler.com/_media/26Nosler_Comparison-Charts_Low-Res.pdf is a ballistics comparison chart of flat shooting long distance rounds somewhat prejudiced by Nosler because they came up with the .26 Nosler cartridge with claimed point blank range of 415 yards when zeroed at 350 yards. https://www.26nosler.com/ is great but may not be preferred cartridge as it is a new high price proprietary round. 6.5 mm classics for more than a century are the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser and the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. The most popular modern 6.5 mm rounds include the .260 Remington, 6.5-284 Norma, 6.5mm Remington Magnum and .264 Winchester Magnum. 7 mm is a very close second for flat-shooting, low-recoil cartridges lead by the classic 7x57 Mauser. Other popular modern 7 mm cartridges are the 7mm-08 Remington, .280 Remington, 7mm WSM, and 7mm Remington Magnum. Also the in between .270 Winchester is very accurate and popular. Most shooters will be more accurate with the non-magnum rounds which produce less recoil with a slight reduction in muzzle velocity.

See https://www.chuckhawks.com/want_better_sd.htm , https://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5mm_rifle_cartridges.htm and https://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5mm_270_7mm.htm

The Russian Mosin-Nagant is an excellent, accurate, and cheap ($200-$300) surplus military rifle preferred by third work snipers. Doesn't make much sense to change the caliber as surplus ammo is cheap and available. Naturally you can reload as well.

Bob
 
bobkrech said:
https://www.26nosler.com/_media/26Nosler_Comparison-Charts_Low-Res.pdf is a ballistics comparison chart of flat shooting long distance rounds somewhat prejudiced by Nosler because they came up with the .26 Nosler cartridge with claimed point blank range of 415 yards when zeroed at 350 yards. https://www.26nosler.com/ is great but may not be preferred cartridge as it is a new high price proprietary round. 6.5 mm classics for more than a century are the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser and the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. The most popular modern 6.5 mm rounds include the .260 Remington, 6.5-284 Norma, 6.5mm Remington Magnum and .264 Winchester Magnum. 7 mm is a very close second for flat-shooting, low-recoil cartridges lead by the classic 7x57 Mauser. Other popular modern 7 mm cartridges are the 7mm-08 Remington, .280 Remington, 7mm WSM, and 7mm Remington Magnum. Also the in between .270 Winchester is very accurate and popular. Most shooters will be more accurate with the non-magnum rounds which produce less recoil with a slight reduction in muzzle velocity.

See https://www.chuckhawks.com/want_better_sd.htm , https://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5mm_rifle_cartridges.htm and https://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5mm_270_7mm.htm

The Russian Mosin-Nagant is an excellent, accurate, and cheap ($200-$300) surplus military rifle preferred by third work snipers. Doesn't make much sense to change the caliber as surplus ammo is cheap and available. Naturally you can reload as well.

Bob
Click to expand...


Even cheaper than that the last hours of a gun show, when you can pick up a hex(actually it's an octagon)receiver version, the second most wanted version. Of course the sniper version is most desirable but when the rifles got remanufactured a great many of the sniper rifles had the bolt holes plugged. You can find one of those fairly easily, crack open the bolt and if there are 2 screw ends protruding into the receiver area then it's an old sniper rifle. I found one for $125 and a common one in the kind of shape I was looking for at a price around $100, brown barrel but no pitting in the rifling. I was thinking with a sabot round the rifling doesn't have to be that crisp. Just looking to do some long range rock chuck hunting :)
 
Ok, about muzzleloaders... Seeing how expensive the Savage ML10 is, I am looking at Cabelas offering various modern inline rifles, and it seems the manufacturers are few... Thompson/Encore, CVA, and Tradition. None of them work for smokeless but seems they've came out with this thing called "Black Horn 209" which is basically smokeless powder (as in nitrocellulose) that was modified to work in a standard bp volume measure but has the same advantage of smokeless powder (easy cleaning, less fouling) without the disadvantages (like overpressure). How does that work? Can someone recommend a decent but inexpensive inline ML rifle?
 
dave carver said:
Even cheaper than that the last hours of a gun show, when you can pick up a hex(actually it's an octagon)receiver version, the second most wanted version. Of course the sniper version is most desirable but when the rifles got remanufactured a great many of the sniper rifles had the bolt holes plugged. You can find one of those fairly easily, crack open the bolt and if there are 2 screw ends protruding into the receiver area then it's an old sniper rifle. I found one for $125 and a common one in the kind of shape I was looking for at a price around $100, brown barrel but no pitting in the rifling. I was thinking with a sabot round the rifling doesn't have to be that crisp. Just looking to do some long range rock chuck hunting :)
Click to expand...
Here's my estimates on what velocities you might expect to obtain with the proper burnrate powder in your rifle extrapolated from the ballistics tables on the referenced website and the case and pressure capacities of the MN cartridge.

The condition of the bore and rifling is important for accuracy of any round saboted or not. The choice of bullets is also important. At these velocities you can not rely in a lead bullet to stay together. It will either throw the jacket or melt. A solid copper projectile has the best chance of succeeding. If you want real fast, a #F tungsten ball should get you over 6 kfps if you can get power that will give you an optimum pressure time profile. Check Ackley's classics for some full-bore cartridges that will generate these velocities, but you would be lucky to get 100-200 shots downrange before the barrel was shot out. I think you can get much longer barrel life using a sub-caliber round.

A point of reference from the dark ages. :dark: When we were shooting saboted 2" projectiles at 15-25 kfps from a 2-stage light gas gun, we observed barrel erosion of 0.001" to 0.002" per shot in the smoothbore 2.5" barrel and so the 80' barrel was precision honed after each shot...... :cool: Don't worry, at 4-6 kfps it's a lot less. :wink:

Saboted 7.62x54 MN Cartridge Potential
Muzzle Energy
3000
ft-lb
Sabot Weight
7
grain
Bullet Weight
Muzzle Velocity
Ball
grain
feet per second
or Rifling
27.7
6240
#F Tungsten shot
45
5098
1:12
50
4869
1:12
52
4786
1:12
55
4669
1:12
62
4425
1:9 or 1:10
69
4217
1:9
70
4189
1:9
75
4059
1:8
77
4011
1:8
80
3941
1:8
85
3833
1:7
90
3732
1:7
Potential Velocities.Actual velocities may be lower.
Maximum safe chamber pressure is gun/powder dependent.
Solid copper bullets:Barnes or Berger
Nylon Sabot and loading information available from
https://www.eabco.com/remington-accelerator-sabots.html

Bob
 
Mosin-Nagants can be very accurate or shoot basketball size groups at 50yrds.

If you want an accurate sample get a Finnish Nagant, unfortunately the prices of Finns has gotten quite high recently, you wont find a good sample for under $300.

For the cheap Mosins you can get a good shooter but you may have to go through a few to find one.

The bores on the barrels can range anywhere from 0.309 to 0.315. If you lucky enough to find a bore around 0.309 to 0.310 you are lucky, it will shoot surplus ammo quite accurately. If the bore is 0.311 to 0.312, it will not be accurate with surplus 0.308 ammo but if you reload you can use a British 303 bullet which you can get in either 0.311 or 0.312 and load with H4895 and it will shoot sub 3" groups at 100yrds. If the barrel is 0.314 or larger, it will be a fun rifle but do not expect too much accuracy.

The barrel crowns could be counterbored. Counterboring isn't bad but it prevents you assessing the bore diameter easily at a show or a dealer. But I would rather have a counterbored barrel than a barrel with a lousy crown. If you find a barrel with a nice crown and not bored you can get an idea of the barrel diameter by placing a round in the muzzle as a gage and see how far down it goes. There are pics on the internet to gauge this. Otherwise you can buy the gun, take it home and slug the barrel with a lead sinker and measure the diameter.

--jd
1938 Mosin round receiver
1941 Hex
1944 M44 round
1928 Finn
1941 Sniper with SVT scope
 
Heh, that ball of tungsten, any tiny imperfection and god only knows where it's going to end up :D The barrels were rifled at both 1:9 and 1:10 twist, pretty hard to tell from looking :p I think you can run down a tendency from knowing what plant at what time. I'm thinking the 69 and 70 grain bullets are right around what I want for speed, 4000 fps or just above. What powder did you figure to use? This is going to happen sometime this year...I know where the rock chuck are big....
 
I haven't loaded for speed, just for accuracy. I get the best accuracy at around 2600 fps, 150gr bullet, ~45g H4895. Anything faster and I only hope to get 1 minute of Nazi accuracy.
 
dave carver said:
Heh, that ball of tungsten, any tiny imperfection and god only knows where it's going to end up :D The barrels were rifled at both 1:9 and 1:10 twist, pretty hard to tell from looking :p I think you can run down a tendency from knowing what plant at what time. I'm thinking the 69 and 70 grain bullets are right around what I want for speed, 4000 fps or just above. What powder did you figure to use? This is going to happen sometime this year...I know where the rock chuck are big....
Click to expand...

sabot06.jpg

The powder weight for the .308 should be ok for the larger capacity but lower pressure 7.62x54 MN cartridge with a 55 g bullet.

44 g of IMR-4198 shoots a 55 g .224 bullet with a velocity of 4000 fps @ 43900 psi in a .308 Winchester. The water capacity of a 7.62x54 MN is higher so the pressure and velocity should be lower. Check the bullet manufacturer for what twist is required to stabilize the bullet in a .223 or 5.56 as the bullet you have to stabilized is 5.56 mm projectile not the 7.62 mm bore diameter. The Barnes Match Burner 0.224 69 g BT Match Bullet only requires a 1:10 twist so it should work with either rifling twist. I'm just not sure if you need a solid copper/brass bullet or can live with a thick copper/brass jacketed lead bullet. I have found several max values for the MN cases and chamber pressures so start low. I'm also not sure if the 4198 is the optimum powder for a 69-70 grain bullet as the reload data is for the 55 g round which will have a higher velocity for the same power weight, but it's a start. But no doubt you will figure it our.

Bob
 
I noticed there are a few Mosin Nagants that are made before 1899 and therefore classified as antique firearm. I owned one before (because you don't need FFL to buy them) and they shoot ok stock, however I was not aware of anyone doing custom work on them since nearly all custom work is done either on Mausers or Rem 700's. I recall being able to get a 3" group at 100 yards.

As for ML's there are Rem 700's converted to ML, I don't know what's the point of doing that, they are still firearms and require 4473 and FFL (the whole point of buying ML is to not deal with that hassle in the first place)... and not to mention non smokeless ML's are still powerful enough to be lethal to large game animals. (well sure, you could shoot a Savage 10ML with smokeless loads pushing a 200 grain bullet to 3000+ fps with a 5000 foot pound energy, I'd hate to shoulder that gun though)
 
taiwanluthiers said:
I noticed there are a few Mosin Nagants that are made before 1899 and therefore classified as antique firearm. I owned one before (because you don't need FFL to buy them) and they shoot ok stock, however I was not aware of anyone doing custom work on them since nearly all custom work is done either on Mausers or Rem 700's. I recall being able to get a 3" group at 100 yards.

As for ML's there are Rem 700's converted to ML, I don't know what's the point of doing that, they are still firearms and require 4473 and FFL (the whole point of buying ML is to not deal with that hassle in the first place)... and not to mention non smokeless ML's are still powerful enough to be lethal to large game animals. (well sure, you could shoot a Savage 10ML with smokeless loads pushing a 200 grain bullet to 3000+ fps with a 5000 foot pound energy, I'd hate to shoulder that gun though)
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter when it was actually made, it's the model year that counts. .30-40 Krag and the .30-30 1873 Winchester (I've seen these in .45-70 and .45-120 and others) There are early iterations of Colt auto loaders but not the 1911 for sure. Mauser had early versions of the Broomhandle I believe are also legal. You can still buy a black powder Colt or other manufacturers models to this day. I plan on a pair of .44 Colt Navy Sheriff Model 5 1/2" barrel with brass frame and walnut grips, hand rubbed 10-15 coats of Birchwood-Casey Gunstock Oil and the barrel browned with B-C Barrel Brown, steel wool'd until I'm happy. I haven't built one of these for years and as good a job as we did back then I'm betting I get even better results.

I bookmarked the place Top gave as the link for black powder kits. The shooting replicas are just as legal as the old guns but probably safer. Metals now are just better... as long as they get the blend right :p

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_162_194

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/popup_image.php?pID=877 ...ain't she a beauty? ;)
 
Just remember a MNs max pressure is 56,565 psi according to C.I.P., anything over that and you risk damaging yourself, the gun can probably take it. The Mosins don't have as refined a gas handling systems as the Mausers and Springfields so a ruptured case or primer could easily put high temperature and high pressure gases directly into your face. Personally I would save my money and buy a Rem 700 or Savage 10/12 model in a varmint caliber to start (and you could easily purchase one for less than a conversion of a MN). High velocity sabots are cool sounding but cleaning the plastic fouling from the bore and the less than stellar accuracy, my experiences with them are meh.
 
I gotta ask...

What kind of accuracy are you guys getting using sabots?

I tried sabots in a T/C Contender some decades back. IMHO, the accuracy left quite a bit to be desired. Best I ever got was about 4" at 100M. Even with reduced loads. That translates to a miss on ground squirrels. (Which is why I went ahead and bought the 223Rem barrel for it. Same bullet, much better accuracy. And it dusts ground grizzlies at 200M. Does an excellent job on 'yotes, too.)
 
jderimig said:
Mosin-Nagants can be very accurate or shoot basketball size groups at 50yrds.

If you want an accurate sample get a Finnish Nagant, unfortunately the prices of Finns has gotten quite high recently, you wont find a good sample for under $300.

For the cheap Mosins you can get a good shooter but you may have to go through a few to find one.

The bores on the barrels can range anywhere from 0.309 to 0.315. If you lucky enough to find a bore around 0.309 to 0.310 you are lucky, it will shoot surplus ammo quite accurately. If the bore is 0.311 to 0.312, it will not be accurate with surplus 0.308 ammo but if you reload you can use a British 303 bullet which you can get in either 0.311 or 0.312 and load with H4895 and it will shoot sub 3" groups at 100yrds. If the barrel is 0.314 or larger, it will be a fun rifle but do not expect too much accuracy.

The barrel crowns could be counterbored. Counterboring isn't bad but it prevents you assessing the bore diameter easily at a show or a dealer. But I would rather have a counterbored barrel than a barrel with a lousy crown. If you find a barrel with a nice crown and not bored you can get an idea of the barrel diameter by placing a round in the muzzle as a gage and see how far down it goes. There are pics on the internet to gauge this. Otherwise you can buy the gun, take it home and slug the barrel with a lead sinker and measure the diameter.

--jd
1938 Mosin round receiver
1941 Hex
1944 M44 round
1928 Finn
1941 Sniper with SVT scope
Click to expand...

Good info JD - Bore slugging is a Mosin Nagant owners best friend... Assuming the bore is good, slug it to find the actual diameter, so that the proper bullet can be selected. The Speer in .311 or Hornady in .312 are two that come to mind. The bores on my Tula PU and my Izhevsk Mosin Nagant rifles slug right at .313, so eaither bullet has been kind to me.
 
taiwanluthiers said:
What if you put a rocket on an arrow and light it as soon as you release it?
Click to expand...

It leaves a flaming streak? If you believe Hollywood thousands of Western Army Forts were burned down using this method.

edit;...oh, flaming rocket arrow....not a good idea. It can fire too soon torching your face. Fire too late with possible unintended results. Be a flying bomb, serious problem. Land then ignite, starting a fire... you get my drift...
 
Last edited:
1.) You can not get better accuracy from a sub-bore saboted projectile than a full-bore projectile.
2.) It is easy to get worse accuracy if you do not understand what the important physics is.
a. The .220 Swift and the .22-250 Remington generate very high velocity with light bullets and a 1:12 to 1:14 twist.
b. Many .30 caliber rifles use a 1:12 to 1:14 twist.
c. One might think that because both rifles have the same twist, you can shoot any old saboted sub-caliber .22 bullet out of a .30 full-bore barrel but you would be wrong.
d. You can duplicate the .22 Swift velocity with the lightweight saboted .220 Swift bullet in a .30 barrel, but you can't simply load up a 70 grain 5.56 mm bullet that requires a 1:9 twist in an AR-15 and expect to hit the broad side of a barn at 100 yards because a 1:12 or 1:14 twist in a .30 caliber barrel won't stabilize it.
3.) The sabot also must be well balanced and symmetric, and it must not impart any asymmetric separation forces to the bullet. Any imbalance will reduce the accuracy of the sub-caliber bullet when compared to it's accuracy when launched from a full-caliber rifle.

Modern anti-tank rounds are sub-caliber fin stabilized darts fired from a smooth-bore barrel. (See the references below.) These rounds are very accurate with a muzzle velocity >5000 fps, however I don't believe there are any inexpensive saboted darts available in .30 caliber.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M829

Bob
 
bobkrech said:
1.) You can not get better accuracy from a sub-bore saboted projectile than a full-bore projectile.
2.) It is easy to get worse accuracy if you do not understand what the important physics is.
a. The .220 Swift and the .22-250 Remington generate very high velocity with light bullets and a 1:12 to 1:14 twist.
b. Many .30 caliber rifles use a 1:12 to 1:14 twist.
c. One might think that because both rifles have the same twist, you can shoot any old saboted sub-caliber .22 bullet out of a .30 full-bore barrel but you would be wrong.
d. You can duplicate the .22 Swift velocity with the lightweight saboted .220 Swift bullet in a .30 barrel, but you can't simply load up a 70 grain 5.56 mm bullet that requires a 1:9 twist in an AR-15 and expect to hit the broad side of a barn at 100 yards because a 1:12 or 1:14 twist in a .30 caliber barrel won't stabilize it.
3.) The sabot also must be well balanced and symmetric, and it must not impart any asymmetric separation forces to the bullet. Any imbalance will reduce the accuracy of the sub-caliber bullet when compared to it's accuracy when launched from a full-caliber rifle.

Modern anti-tank rounds are sub-caliber fin stabilized darts fired from a smooth-bore barrel. (See the references below.) These rounds are very accurate with a muzzle velocity >5000 fps, however I don't believe there are any inexpensive saboted darts available in .30 caliber.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M829

Bob
Click to expand...

I keep getting more and more reason to get a ENCO mill/lathe. Some tooling, copper rod, and some Delrin I have a start. Something machined from solid copper with 6 fins and sabot, lots of case room in a 7.62 x 54r for a fairly long saboted copper flight...or flechette as it were. I got nothing better to do ;)
 
Bob is right on about the Sabot thing. Don't expect good accuracy from them with the types available to you.
Remington used to have a 30 Caliber Sabot Round called the "Accelerator" in loadings for 30-06 and 30/30. They were not known for being accurate. Rate of twist has everything to do with stabilizing any particular Bullet.
 
Yeah, I guess I'm a paper puncher at heart now. Sabots don't do it for me.

Accuracy floats my boat.

That paper and the bright target-dot on it out there, are NOT the target. The first hole is the target. Can I center punch it?

Came close to the perfect group one evening after work, some moons back. Custom made 12" T/C barrel from JD Jones at SSK, in 6mmBR, Leupold 2.5-8 EER glass on top. 5 rounds fired at 100M from a sandbag, maximum center-to-center on the group was .075", measured with a dial caliper. One very slightly elongated hole. Sierra MatchKings in carefully assembled handloads.

It was a fluke. Must have been in a Zen state that evening, cuz I haven't come close since. I get some tight groups now and then, but not like that. :cry:
 
taiwanluthiers said:
What do you think about those cap and ball revolver? No FFL is a bonus...
Click to expand...

I built Navy Colt's from kits and will again. It's in the budget for the future to buy a kit from Dixie Gun Works. As most here I like to work with my hands and right now for the price of $200 and some labor I have what I want, a revolver that didn't cost a fortune. I like the .357 Magnum but they have gotten so expensive as to place them out of my price range and used isn't any better, there's some pretty crappy used guns out there for $150 and up. Even used .22 pistols go for obscene prices.
 
dave carver said:
I keep getting more and more reason to get a ENCO mill/lathe. Some tooling, copper rod, and some Delrin I have a start. Something machined from solid copper with 6 fins and sabot, lots of case room in a 7.62 x 54r for a fairly long saboted copper flight...or flechette as it were. I got nothing better to do ;)
Click to expand...

[YOUTUBE]qJQfAcBs5vQ[/YOUTUBE]

Here's a good example of a sabot separation of a finned projectile launched from an electro-magnetic rail gun. The velocity and thus the kinetic energy is so high that there is no explosive in the projectile! Also note the non-zero angle of attack of the projectile......
The projectile construction is real interesting but it's not something you can make in a home shop.......

Enjoy. :pop: :cool: :dark:

Bob
 
That's a couple of magnitudes in speed above what I'm going to be able to achieve :) It's a matter of intellectual curiosity now, no brown barrel now. First quality select rifle to start and check numbers for the best chance for the proper twist. There's more than one sabot maker and maybe one of the plastics used in 3D printing would work. Then a recess at the base could take a gas check if it was needed, the mold for my .38 Semi Wadcutter rounds had the indent cast in but you could use it with or without a copper gas check.

So what if it has to be loaded for 3700 fps for instance. I shoot what works best, get used to it, and a dead rock chuck, antelope, or, your pardon RocketT, coyote doesn't care how fast the bullet was going ;)
 
Did the paperwork the other day on a private party transfer a an earlier generation Glock 21. It comes with a complete armorer's parts kit, extra barrel, magazines, holster and mag carrier. Pays to know people who know people.

Even though I own other firearms, there's still a 10 day waiting period...but not for long! Federal District Court ruled that the State has no valid reason to delay transfer of a firearm to someone who already legally possesses one or already has a CCW. The State tried to convince the Court that implementation of the change would take at least six months at which point the Judge tore a few strips off the State's representative. The new implementation date is about three weeks from now IIRC.
 
o1d_dude said:
Did the paperwork the other day on a private party transfer a an earlier generation Glock 21. It comes with a complete armorer's parts kit, extra barrel, magazines, holster and mag carrier. Pays to know people who know people.

Even though I own other firearms, there's still a 10 day waiting period...but not for long! Federal District Court ruled that the State has no valid reason to delay transfer of a firearm to someone who already legally possesses one or already has a CCW. The State tried to convince the Court that implementation of the change would take at least six months at which point the Judge tore a few strips off the State's representative. The new implementation date is about three weeks from now IIRC.
Click to expand...

Apparently, the California Attorney General Kamala D. Harris (Socialist) has convinced the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals to issue a stay in the waiting period case while she runs for retiring Boxer's US Senate seat. Smart money says she's eying an appointment to the SCOTUS by Zer0bama. Lifetime appointment, no re-election campaigns, etc. Scary thought.
 
Just signed up for the Nevada CCW class. I've got a Kahr PM9 and Ruger LCR, but looking for something smaller, like 380 sized, to round out the lineup. Leaning towards a Kahr P380, but still considering everything. Any thoughts?
 

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