Beginner - Cost concerns

I haven't launched a rocket in about 20 years (last one was a Mean Machine.... yes I still remember it well) and now I'm looking to get back into it but the cost for some supplies, specifically igniters and wadding, is ABSURD! $5.49 for 6 igniters that don't always work. Even if they worked every time, $1 per igniter is ridiculous.
I'm ok with the average price I've seen for engines. Wadding though, not so much.

I say all that to ask this:

Are there much cheaper and better alternative to Estes igniters and wadding? It seems that I should be able to find a bulk quantity of a material that will work as wadding at a hardware store. And igniters... I was expecting to find a bag of maybe 25 for roughly $4 or so.

I'm certainly not opposed to spending money, but the cost needs to make sense.

If you have any cheaper, alternative suggestions for igniters and wadding I would greatly appreciate it. There's enough investment as it is without being gouged on things that should be extremely inexpensive.

My daughter and I are about halfway through the build of our rockets and will be ready to launch this weekend. Hoping to get some good info on these materials and possibly other materials.

-Lance

Crepe paper (party decor) makes fine wadding, it's treated much the same as Estes wadding. Available cheap at your local dollar store. Do you have motors without igniters?

Blown-in insulation is a good wadding choice a bale is cheap and lasts forever.

Most of the packages of motors include ignitors - wait - sorry - the new terms due to regulations are starters, so you only need to buy a separate pack if you have misfires. Depending on how much you will be into the rockets, try to get a blast pack from Michaels or Hobby Lobby using a 40% off coupon. You get 24 motors, starters, and wadding in the package.

Wadding - lots of options. The most common alternative is what we affectionately refer to as "dog barf", which is blown in cellulose insulation (NOT fiberglass). You can buy a bundle from a local store like Lowes or Home Depot that will last a few lifetimes for $10~$12. The best thing to do is check to see if they have any damaged packs that they will mark down. Other options include flame proof streamers (get from a dollar store) or go "organic" and use lettuce or moist grass.

chadrog said:

Crepe paper (party decor) makes fine wadding, it's treated much the same as Estes wadding. Available cheap at your local dollar store. Do you have motors without igniters?

Click to expand...

+++1 on Crepe paper streamers for small rockets. I've used this for something like 30 years - never paid for the Estes stuff.

Thanks very much for the quick replies. The engines did come with starters, but I know I'll need some extras at some point. May have to just suck up the cost on those and get the blast pack.
Thanks again for the very quick feedback.

les had a good suggestion above, don't let it slip through un-noticed.

Get to the HobbyLobby website and pull up their 40% coupon. You can either print it off on paper at home, or pull it up on your smart phone when you reach the checkout register.

There are also some websites that offer pretty good discounts. Spend some time checking around and you will often find bargains here and there.

I generally buy bulk packs of motors which comes with a package of wadding a extra pack or two of igniters. I have more of both than I likely to ever use at this point.

If you are using an Estes controller, the bridge wire in the igniter doesn't always break (especially with 13mm motors). As long as the bridge wire is intact and touches the propellant, you can get another launch out of it.

My record is 5 launches with 1 igniter.

If you do any staging, you are using 1 igniter for 2 (or 3) motors.

It doesn't take long to build up a supply of extra igniters. I have more than 100 packs of extra igniters.

I use primarily "dog barf" (cellulose insulation) and a small piece of party crepe paper streamer as wadding. I've had my bale of cellulose for almost 10 years now! I think I might be 1/4 of the way through it now! As for igniters/starters... they don't fail that much if you insert them properly and handle with care. With BP motors and a good 12v launch system, bare nichrome wire works well.

As for buying motors and igniters, I buy mostly in bulk from https://www.acsupplyco.com. They sell Estes at 40% off all the time. Free shipping on orders over $100. Buy a Bast-Off Pack plus a kit or two and you'll be right there.

Welcome back to the hobby!


Jerome

If you think that model rocketry might be too expensive you could try a cheaper hobby; such as model railroading. Bwa! Ha! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee Whooo! That’s a good one.

Sorry; I just finished watching “Batman: Assault on Arkham” and I think I’m channeling The Joker.

There are aspects of model rocketry that can get pricy; wait until you get a load of the price for a decent Cert 2 kit and the motors for said rocket.

Unfortunately, as far as I am aware, nobody has developed a reusable electronic igniter for motors.
I read somewhere about using “Glowplugs” for deployment charges but it doesn’t look like something that can be adapted.

As for the price of wadding. I’m beginning a long-term program to install baffles into all of my smaller rockets where possible as well as including them in all of my new builds.

Between baffles and nomex hankies I’m attempting to do away with the expense and hassles of chute protection.

BobH48 said:

If you are using an Estes controller, the bridge wire in the igniter doesn't always break (especially with 13mm motors). As long as the bridge wire is intact and touches the propellant, you can get another launch out of it.

My record is 5 launches with 1 igniter.

If you do any staging, you are using 1 igniter for 2 (or 3) motors.

It doesn't take long to build up a supply of extra igniters. I have more than 100 packs of extra igniters.

Click to expand...

Good point! I've been noticing that lately about the Bridge Wire not getting burned through. I'm going to try to reuse some of the intact Bridge Wire ones that are just floating aroung the bottom on my Range Box. Not for a Cluster or anything like that, but why waste another new Ignitor on a small Rocket if I have all these spent ones?

I went the way of "Dog Barf" many moons ago. Cheap long term investment. If you are into scratch building, I have a link for some of the best priced parts I have been able to find on the internet. https://www.brshobbies.com/catalog.php/BRSHobbies/pg104 Bryan actually has a lot to offer here, but you might have to wait for his restocking sometimes. If kits are your angle, go with the great info already provided. Hobby Lobby coupons. It does make a difference. Btw, Bryans shipping is really honest and he has discounted kits also.

The topic of "reusable" wadding has been covered here on the forum several times... from plumber's tape "pom-poms" to nomex sheets, to pistons, baffles, etc.

There's plenty of alternatives for cheap wadding substitutes to. Dog barf is one. Lettuce leaves, lush green grass, crepe paper (beware the cheap Chinese junk from 99 cent stores... some folks have reported that that stuff WILL smolder and burn for a considerable amount of time, despite laws requiring crepe paper be "flameproof"... test it before flying to make sure...)

Good luck! OL JR

The retail price on things like Estes igniters and wadding is definitely ridiculous, and you are right to look for alternatives.

For wadding, I use cellulose insulation like this bale for 10 bucks that will last my entire lifetime: https://www.lowes.com/pd_82480-2256-INS541LD_0__?productId=3227256 It is basically shredded newspaper that has been fireproofed. Do not use fiberglass or any other kind of insulation! If you go to a club launch, there is usually a bale there for free for use at the launch, and you could probably even fill up a gallon ziploc bag to go and no one would object. (Maybe ask first.) If you live near Dublin, CA, PM me, and you can come by for a free gallon. I usually put a square of regular wadding in the rocket first then the insulation, AKA "Dog Barf", in on top of that.

Also, you can supposedly make your own wadding using borax and regular paper towels or coffee filters. Search the forum for instructions. It sounded really easy to do.

Igniters are certainly overpriced. But for LPR black powder motors, they usually come packaged with igniters. And misfires are rare, so you should only need a few extras.

For both wadding and igniters, you should never pay full retail. If you buy them at Hobby Lobby, use the 40% coupon. Otherwise, buy them at Hobbylinc --- $3.89 each for starters: https://www.hobbylinc.com/estes-solar-model-rocket-igniters-rocket-motor-starter-2302 and wadding: https://www.hobbylinc.com/estes-model-rocket-recovery-wadding-302274

Or try AC Supply --- $3.29 for each: https://www.acsupplyco.com/estes/engines.htm

Lance:
Crepe Paper or Dog barf (blow-in insulation) are Cheap. Permenant Teflon Plumbers tape "Pom-Pom ball" wadding is even cheaper (but take a little while to make). There is also the fabrication of ejection baffles but they are NOT permanent they ware out after X number of flights. And there is up to 2" wide PTFE Teflon military grade thread sealing tape that makes excellent LPR model Streamers requiring no wadding at all. Just a heavy dusting with Talc Baby Powder before fold/rolling.

Edit: One of the best things I've discovered using Dog Barf has been to add one or two sheets of good Old Estes wadding or Crepe Paper sheet below about 2 loose packed diameters of Dog Barf and a last sheet folded loosely around the bottom of the chute. This practice has ended melted plastic chutes and burnt holes in my rip-stop nylon chutes.

Personally I'm not a big advocate for ejection baffles as they are not permanent. They all ware out without warning and when they fail the unprotected recovery system is Toasted. If you decide to go with ejection baffles I strongly suggest adding at least a sheet of FP wadding loosely folded around the aft end of your recovery device.

As for Igniter...Excuse Me...Starters! Make your own! I'm sure you remember back in the Stone Age 60's when we were given a small coil of bare Ni-Chrome wire with our Estes BP motors to "coil around a pen tip" before inserting in our motors with a small ball of wadding as a stopper. Well the same thing still works exactly and same and PERFECTLY today.
McMaster-Carr has 1/8lb spools of 30ga. .010"diameter x 400feet #8880K83 Nickel-Chromium (Ni-Chrome) wire currently for $18.18 plus about 5.40 shipping that will make about 2400 - 2" igniters.. I mean Starters, for less then a penny-a-piece (.0098 cents each).
If you want to improve these with a home-made tip dip. A few (3) Ping-Pong balls cut-up in 8oz of Acetone make a very nice Nitrocellulose Lacquer that can be used alone or mixed with a very small amount of Pyrodex which make Excellent Cluster Motor Starters

NOTE! Sally Hansen Hard As Nails it the only decent Nitrocelloulose Lacquer nail polish. Clear is by far the best for igniter dipping but do remember this is only the "starter" base. It's works fine for single motor use but they are NOT and I repeat NOT reliable for use in multi motor Clusters. That included two motor clusters.

Hope this helps a little. if you need further info for making Teflon Pom-Pom permanent wadding and/or info on the Military grade PTFE Teflon Streamer material PM me.

Geez, for a Level 3 rocket, you could build it, stuff it, fly it once, lose it, and be out $2000 easily!

Wait, there are cost concerns?

TA

I haven't bought Estes or Quest wadding in years.
Crepe paper "folds" were bought from the Crepe Paper Store:
https://crepepaperstore.com/product-category/crepe-paper-folds-60-gram/
And cut into 4" squares. You can use crepe streamers from the Dollar Store, but they seem narrow in larger diameter rockets.
If you buy only one package of the crepe paper the shipping cost cancels any real savings. But buy 10 packages and you'll be set for years!

I only have a few rockets that have been flown over twenty times. When baffles cost $5.00 you should weigh if it is cheaper to use wadding.
A correctly installed baffle won't melt a parachute, wadding doesn't protect a parachute as well as a baffle.
You'll probably have to replace a melted parachute.

Igniters can re-used if the thin top bridge wire isn't burnt through.
If the wire contacts the black powder, bare nichrome works fine. It might take an extra second to ignite when using a 6 volt controller.

Estes blast off flight pack comes with a ton of wadding and 36 starters with 24 engines, unless they have recently changed it with this whole Ignitors/starters fiasco. It has 6 each A8-3. b6-4, C6-3' and C6-5 engines. hobbylinc.com has it for about $56 includes shipping HAZMAT. Other suggestions for wadding above are also great, I do find the blast off flight pack wadding fits easily in the range box.

+1 on the Blast off pack and dog barf.

Another wadding method is to treat toilet paper sheets with a saturated borax and water solution. Let it dry, and it's just like estes.

chadrog said:

Crepe paper (party decor) makes fine wadding, it's treated much the same as Estes wadding. Available cheap at your local dollar store. Do you have motors without igniters?

Click to expand...

That's what I use. Less messy than cellulose blown-in insulation (aka dog barf). However, I'll mention the same warning given by someone when I previously mentioned dollar store crepe paper here - be sure to test it for flame resistance before using it as wadding. Even though by law it's supposed to be flame resistant if sold in the US, you simply can't trust Chinese "quality control."

Wow, these are great alternatives. I too am getting back in to the hobby after a few years. Excellent ways to save!


Doug

As mentioned at least twice, if price is a concern you are in the wrong hobby! My biggest bird has 1000$ invested before I put in a 300& motor and a 400$ reload!

A real good way to save money(or spend tons of it) is to watch the Yard Sale Section. There are some real good bargains go through there. I once bought about 100+ motors around $1 each from a dealer clearing old stock. He sold thousands more than that. I got a bulk pack of 1/2A3-2 minimotors for $20. You just have to watch. Make sure it's from a dealer. They need to have a HAZMAT shipping permit.

Also there is the Rocketry Resources section located in the Watering Hole. It's pinned at the top of the section. Give your credit card to your wife...it's not safe...

Byytorr said:

Are there much cheaper and better alternative to Estes igniters and wadding? It seems that I should be able to find a bulk quantity of a material that will work as wadding at a hardware store. And igniters... I was expecting to find a bag of maybe 25 for roughly $4 or so.

I'm certainly not opposed to spending money, but the cost needs to make sense.

If you have any cheaper, alternative suggestions for igniters and wadding I would greatly appreciate it. There's enough investment as it is without being gouged on things that should be extremely inexpensive.

My daughter and I are about halfway through the build of our rockets and will be ready to launch this weekend. Hoping to get some good info on these materials and possibly other materials.

-Lance

Click to expand...

Lance, I'm coming late to this party, but the advice above about using "Dog barf" or blown cellulose insulation is very practical, and most all of us have gone that way, after using up whatever Estes has convinced us to buy.

However, there are two points to add: Since most of us are doing this, there is usually someone (vendor or local experienced rocketeer) at each club launch who is either selling prepackaged baggies of "dog barf" at very reasonable rates (say, $1/bag) or
will carve you off a hunk of their cube/bail for a donation. I personally bought an open bail at Lowes and repackaged six single gallon baggies with Dog Barf to sell off. And I was cleaned out of all my bags the first club flight I went to. I earned back my investment, plus some for my trouble. And I've still got MORE waiting at home!
Second: The latest edition of Estes low power motors have something extra in them. A pack of 3 C6-3 motors, for instance, not only has three of the 18 mm motors, but also three Estes ignitors, four plastic plugs (in a line) to insert with the ignitors, and...
several sheets of Estes Recovery Wadding! (Prior to this, you had to buy a package for $5 that was the size of the similarly colored opaque white plastic igniters bag, or else it also came in a $60 "flight pack" box of 24 assorted motors, I've found.)

It only makes sense to bundle the motors, ignitors, plugs and now recovery wadding, all into the same package....even if the cost per package has increased slightly. It just makes sense to make it easier for the consumer to buy ONE package to prep his rocket, and be ready to fly.

So, if you're still shopping for a blister package of motors, look for the freshest motor in the blister pack at your hobby store, (Hobby Lobby, Craft 2000, Joanne Fabrics, Microtel, or corner hardware store) and see if that doesn't contain recovery wadding sheets laying in the back behind the motors.

Personally, I'm going to use Dog Barf for the body tube, but use a sheet or two of Estes wadding to form a "cup" around my mylar chutes, just for that little extra protection. (It's a tip I just recently stumbled upon.)

I bought a roll of nichrome and will soon get some dip and make my own.
You can dip nichrome in nail polish, but
It has to be Nitrocellulose Laquer Nail Polish!

I use crepe paper wadding. It's stiffer than the Estes T.P.
It helps to roll it into small balls (putting small folds and bends in it) then open it back up to pack.

Another idea -
Go to www.rocketreviews.com
Under "Features", click on "Deals"
https://www.rocketreviews.com/deals.html

Lots of sale prices like this without searching on your own:
Estes Cosmic Explorer Model Rocket Kit $21.99 $9.00 59.10% off!

We buy our b and c packages from Walmart or target.

Each retail package comes with 4 starters, where as each hobby pack comes with a big fat 0

We've built up a lot of spares already lol

That interesting.... All the regular Estes A, B, and C packs I have bought recently, from hobby stores and online have all come with the same number of starters as motors.

The Blast-Off pack is still the best deal. 24 motors, 30 igniters/starters. plugs and a pack of wadding.


Jerome

HUSLSCAC said:

We buy our b and c packages from Walmart or target.
Each retail package comes with 4 starters, where as each hobby pack comes with a big fat 0!
We've built up a lot of spares already lol

Click to expand...

That seems really odd. Please clarify what you mean by "hobby pack"? Is that how they are labled?
I agree, if you're going for volume or have several fliers in your family, the "Flight Pack" of 24 motors, starters, recovery wadding and starter plugs makes sense. But to plunk $60 down for an initial foray into the hobby seems a bit much.

I STRONGLY disagree with older pros who say "If you're not willing to spend money, this is the wrong hobby for you!"
I think that not only sounds a bit snobby, but also is incorrect. And it actively discourages new blood from entering the hobby. I think there ARE ways to limit the expense FOR THE ENTRY LEVEL HOBBIST. I'm not talking about the High Power rockets and equipment and gear...the comment be entirely correct at that level.

I'm suggesting that there is a way to, for instance, rig your own wires and battery and a single straight rod to form a launch pad and blast shield. You can buy exactly the right 3-pack of A8-3 motors or whatever your rocket calls for, and have 3 flights "assured", and use dog barf for wadding in your $10 special RTF or XT2 rocket and get in the air for under $20-25 bucks.

I'm not saying that you'll always be satisfied with your own private launch rod, and may immediately see the value of a launch pad combo...a Flight Pack...and larger, more sophisticated rockets and gear. I'm just saying that we need to stop telling people who stop by to watch a launch that it will cost them an arm and a leg to fly rockets. We need to ENCOURAGE people to sample the waters...