You may not need a HAM license

Do everyone need a HAM license ?

From what I can see , you need a HAM license to operate a device like Telemetrum, CSI and many others, but at an High Power launch you have few friends with their licenses, so if they operate your device for you, I think it's ok ?

True. Of course, if your friend doesn't show up for the launch, you're out of luck.

To be more accurate you should program the device to your friend's Call Sign and then they can "legally" operate it for you.

Its not hard to get your license so if you are going to spend the money on something as cool as the TeleMetrum then just take the test and get your HAM license. That way you can play with it yourself (legally).

Area66 said:

Do everyone need a HAM license ?

From what I can see , you need a HAM license to operate a device like Telemetrum, CSI and many others, but at an High Power launch you have few friends with their licenses, so if they operate your device for you, I think it's ok ?

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HAM licensing allows for a Control Operator, which means that you can let someone else operate equipment in your name.

A reasonable interpretation of this is that if we're in talking distance of one another, you can use it under my license. But that also means that it's not compliant for you to be using it while I'm not at the field, or while I'm off retrieving a rocket.

If I'm not present, I cannot be in Control.

Equally important, the Control Operator is the one who is legally responsible for the device.

As an example, about 18 months ago I loaned someone a Beeline GPS with my callsign in it. I was present for the launch, helped him with pad prep, and helped him try to track it (it was a shred, so very difficult). I wasn't off flying something of my own while this was going on.

-Kevin

Thanks Troj , let me explain more ; I will get my HAM next week, I don't expect to ask each member of the club to own one, but I do expect they own a tracker because we have corn and I don,t want rockets left in the field that can damage farmers equipment. So if I and few others members ( with HAM ) can operate others device at the club it will be more easy to someone to just purchase let say a CSI transmitter as few of us already have their receiver

A licensed operator needs to be in control of the transmission. The "station" can be on a rocket that does not belong to the licensee. It is just a station. The control operator can be local or the station can be remote controlled. If the licensee is not at the launch, then remote control can be achieved as long as the licensee can contact the station. Cell phone would work.

§97.109 Station control.

(a) Each amateur station must have at least one control point.

(b) When a station is being locally controlled, the control operator must be at the control point. Any station may be locally controlled.

(c) When a station is being remotely controlled, the control operator must be at the control point. Any station may be remotely controlled.

(d) When a station is being automatically controlled, the control operator need not be at the control point. Only stations specifically designated elsewhere in this part may be automatically controlled. Automatic control must cease upon notification by a District Director that the station is transmitting improperly or causing harmful interference to other stations. Automatic control must not be resumed without prior approval of the District Director.

[54 FR 39535, Sept. 27, 1989, as amended at 60 FR 26001, May 16, 1995; 69 FR 24997, May 5, 2004]

Getting license some of the best time I have put into learning , really its a how stuff works on many levels

If you have a group do a group study


I belong to the local radio club dues are 12.00 a year , club member taught us how to use the brb 70cm rf

Area66 said:

Thanks Troj , let me explain more ; I will get my HAM next week, I don't expect to ask each member of the club to own one, but I do expect they own a tracker because we have corn and I don,t want rockets left in the field that can damage farmers equipment. So if I and few others members ( with HAM ) can operate others device at the club it will be more easy to someone to just purchase let say a CSI transmitter as few of us already have their receiver

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Should be no problem Gerard. Only thing that might be a minor issue is technically having a Ham operator available during every launch someone is using their
device that needs "supervision". I have a 1.25cm band CSI tracking transmitter and it has my callsign programmed into it. To be legal, it has to periodically
transmit a callsign. Technically would be an issue if your callsign were used with another control operator onsite while you were at home doing something else.
Is the radio police going to "getcha"? I doubt it. So you can have someone fly a tracker with your callsign on it while you are there onsite, no problem.

I would think a Beeline tracker, RF or GPS, would be easier to use with your fellow club fliers because it would just take a laptop to program whichever Ham operator's callsign is present. Simple to do portable with a laptop right at the launch.

I have a friend who flew a very large rocket to destruction with interference from a dog tracker. I was there at the launch but was unaware of the specifics of the setup. If I would have known, I would have handed him one of my BLGPS trackers to use instead. Would have saved the rocket. Kurt

I have s feeling that with 50mW or even 100mW transmitters there won't be anybody close enough to police call signs and station operators. Transmitter is in flight for mere few minutes, and once it's on the ground, coverage drops to a few miles at best. And then the battery dies in 24h or less.

It would be a different story if someone put a 10W tracker in a rocket but I don't think these are being sold


-Alex

azzie said:

I have s feeling that with 50mW or even 100mW transmitters there won't be anybody close enough to police call signs and station operators. Transmitter is in flight for mere few minutes, and once it's on the ground, coverage drops to a few miles at best. And then the battery dies in 24h or less.

It would be a different story if someone put a 10W tracker in a rocket but I don't think these are being sold

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If your goal is to earn the ire of the Ham community, then taking such an approach is the perfect way to go. They've worked hard to earn (and maintain) the trust of the regulatory agencies, and knowingly flaunting the regulations just damages their credibility and reputation.

It's no different than our expectations that people involved in hobby rocketry follow the regulations as well, to avoid damaging our reputation with the FAA, etc.

-Kevin

HAM's are self policing. Put up a tracker accidentally on an repeater input frequency and you will be tracked down.

azzie said:

I...... And then the battery dies in 24h or less.



-Alex

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A CSI run a week on a battery

azzie said:

I have s feeling that with 50mW or even 100mW transmitters there won't be anybody close enough to police call signs and station operators. Transmitter is in flight for mere few minutes, and once it's on the ground, coverage drops to a few miles at best. And then the battery dies in 24h or less.

It would be a different story if someone put a 10W tracker in a rocket but I don't think these are being sold


-Alex

Click to expand...

Ummmm,
.
Actually there is such a unit but not purpose built for rocketry:

https://www.byonics.com/mt-rtg

I suppose a person could strip it out of the box and launch it in a large project but 10 watts simply isn't needed. Batteries would
weigh a lot plus blasting 10 watts even out of the nosecone is a recipe for dorking the deployment electronics. Even using a 400mW unit
risks interference with one's altimeter. Studying for a Ham ticket one would gather it's best to used the minimum amount of power to get the job done.
What Gerard asked about is perfectly fine. It's fine for a Ham to control a tracker onsite. John and Kevin's points should be well taken though.
I watched a pirate APRS station in a vehicle one time over a couple of weekends. Some Hams jumped in cars and tracked him down!!
Guy didn't know what he was doing and agreed to cease, desist and go test for a license. Kurt

Kevin,

You are exaggerating the effect. Op asked if a HAM rocketeer could lend him HAM equipment to track his own rocket. There is no harm in doing so and I explained why.

We want everyone to be compliant with every nuisance but sometimes it's not practical. Look at BP/DD usage in our hobby. Or HPR motor storage / transportation.

Back to HAM, look at GMRS frequencies? People blast full 5W on their walkie-talkies and don't even know they need a license. But it's same ol' nuisance given overlap with FRS and lack of enforcement.


-Alex

FRS, GMRS and the business bands are not the Ham bands.

Kevin is, if anything, understating the dedication and ability the Ham community will apply to ferret out an offender. This is not a group you want to get angry at you...!


All the best, James

Area66 said:

A CSI run a week on a battery

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I have a ham technicians license. It is easy to get with the right study guide. I agree with Troj that people should do the right thing. That being said, you have probably read the CSI transmitter manual. Here is a link: https://www.com-spec.com/rocket/manual/at_2b_transmitter_manual.pdf

I have CSI transmitters and receiver. The manual states that the CSI transmitters use vacant interstitial frequencies that most likely will not be detected by people using normal FM ham communications. Also, the CW ID is not required on CSI transmitters. It is optional. One can order them from CSI with no call sign. I believe that a station call sign is supposed to be taped onto the transmitter in these cases to be legal. I don't think that anyone is policing CSI transmitters. This may not be the case at 70 cm or 2 meters. Most people are probably aware of 900 MHz transmitters such as one BRB and others that do not require a ham license. You would probably be fine for a short time. Again, I would recommend encouraging people to get the technicians license. I used Gordon West's Technician Class 2010 - 2014, and it was great for me. The tests are scheduled to change in 2015.

I think the OP left out an important factor. He is located in Canada and although there seem to be a lot of similarities, there are also differences between Canada and US. I am not well versed on this subject however from what I have read there are differences between Canada and the US, so here is the response I received when I made an inquiry into obtaining my basic HAM operators license in Canada, for reference only

Thank you for your query regarding the obtaining of a Canadian Amateur Radio operator's certificate.

In order to obtain a certificate you must attend and pass an examination and achieve a grade of at least 70 percent. Passing grades of 80 percent, or higher will afford extended privileges for the use of frequencies below 30 MHz. Examinations may be administered by any accredited Amateur Radio Examiner that has been authorized by Industry Canada to administer these examinations.

For further information on the Amateur Radio Service and for a list of accredited examiners in your area, you may consult our website at:

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/h_sf01709.html

For information on the Amateur Radio community as a whole, you may also wish to visit the Radio Amateurs of Canada (RAC) website.

https://www.rac.ca/

I trust that this has provided the answer to your query.

Sincerely,

Alan McLean
Spectrum Management Officer | Agent, Gestion du spectre
Spectrum Management Operations Branch | Direction générale des opérations de la gestion du spectre
Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications Sector | Secteur du Spectre, des technologies de l'information et des télécommunications

Eastern and Northern Ontario District | District de l'Est et du Nord de l'Ontario
Industry Canada | Industrie Canada
2 Queen Street East, Sault Ste Marie ON P6A 1Y3 | 2, rue Queen est, Sault Ste Marie ON P6A 1Y3
[email protected]
Telephone | Téléphone 705-941-3978
Facsimile | Télécopieur 705-941-4607
Teletypewriter | Téléimprimeur 1-866-694-8389

As a user of the Com-spec transmitter I have looked into it and the 222-225 frequency range it uses does not require a liscence in Canada.

alex_car763 said:

As a user of the Com-spec transmitter I have looked into it and the 222-225 frequency range it uses does not require a liscence in Canada.

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I have two com-spec AT-2T transmitters, which I acquired specifically because my club (NAPAS) owns several com-spec receivers, and from what I recall a HAM license was required. So you might want to check that fact. Or possibly someone will see this post who definitively knows.

If getting a HAM license (Technician, no-code) is really a barrier, there are units that transmit in the 900MHz band, for which no license is required. Look for trackers that operate on 900MHz (BRB900, Real Flight).

JohnCoker said:

If getting a HAM license (Technician, no-code) is really a barrier, there are units that transmit in the 900MHz band, for which no license is required. Look for trackers that operate on 900MHz (BRB900, Real Flight).

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And the EggFinder. A kit but the most economical if one is so inclined. Kurt

Let me be sure I understand what you're proposing...

This is more for the club, not your own project, correct?


If you're going to offer tracking as part of the club, and have a dedicated operator--let's call him a Tracking Officer--for this purpose, I don't see it being an issue provided the tracking officer has the proper license for the frequency used and maintains control of the tracking equipment.



Later!

--Coop

That's why I don't use the entire 902-928 MHz band in the Eggfinder... the unofficial band plan has repeaters in the 902-908 MHz range, so I start at 909 MHz. Even though this is a shared band and nobody really has official "primary" use on it, we need to respect our Ham friends.

jderimig said:

HAM's are self policing. Put up a tracker accidentally on an repeater input frequency and you will be tracked down.

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I opted to skip the whole HAM thing and get a BRB900.

Coop said:

Let me be sure I understand what you're proposing...

This is more for the club, not your own project, correct?

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both, but I think it's an interesting discussion for everyone member of a club, How many time I read in the forum that peoples need a HAM license to own a CSI or an Altus Metrum kit when in fact they just need to launch with someone who own a license. A CSI is a very very efficient way to find a rocket and the battery is good for a week, so no need to worry you can use the units all the day. In a corn field the GPS location means nothing as it's too imprecise, the CSI will bring you right on the spot of the rocket.

Area66 said:

both, but I think it's an interesting discussion for everyone member of a club, How many time I read in the forum that peoples need a HAM license to own a CSI or an Altus Metrum kit when in fact they just need to launch with someone who own a license. A CSI is a very very efficient way to find a rocket and the battery is good for a week, so no need to worry you can use the units all the day. In a corn field the GPS location means nothing as it's too imprecise, the CSI will bring you right on the spot of the rocket.

Click to expand...

Another thing with RDF with CSI is the size. Easier to slap on the shockcord.

I beg to differ a bit on GPS in a cornfield, especially if one's receiving station is pedestrian portable. Get to the last received packet location and one is likely
to receive a new one that is the final resting place. If in tall corn could simply use a Yagi/attenuator on the 70cm GPS tracker for the "last 10 feet" like an RDF tracker or simply add a beeper to the shockcord if the altimeter isn't loud enough. Let your
ears Do the tracking. The GPS tracker will get one close enough to hear the beeper.

If it's a large enough rocket, perhaps some of the recovery
laundry will sit on top of the corn.

I agree Gerard, some smaller rockets could get swallowed up parachute and all in tall standing corn.
Where I'm at, landowner prefers we don't fly after the corn is knee high. We honor that as a fiberglass rocket can really tear up a combine. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

If in tall corn could simply use a Yagi/attenuator on the 70cm GPS tracker for the "last 10 feet" like an RDF tracker or simply add a beeper to the shockcord if the altimeter isn't loud enough. If it's a large enough rocket, perhaps some of the recovery

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This is what I like about my Telemetrum, I can use a Yagi and a 70cm receiver like my BAOFENG to locate it, I have not yet find a cheap 900mhz receiver who can do it.

Area66 said:

both, but I think it's an interesting discussion for everyone member of a club, How many time I read in the forum that peoples need a HAM license to own a CSI or an Altus Metrum kit when in fact they just need to launch with someone who own a license. A CSI is a very very efficient way to find a rocket and the battery is good for a week, so no need to worry you can use the units all the day. In a corn field the GPS location means nothing as it's too imprecise, the CSI will bring you right on the spot of the rocket.

Click to expand...

I think that a CSI tracking system would be great for your club. It requires the most minimal license in Canada. 220 - 225 MHz requires an Amateur Operators Certificate with Basic Qualification certificate. You could provide a receiver and let people get their own transmitters and license (looks very easy) or provide transmitter and receiver and be the control operator. The Canadian Amateur Radio Band plan and certifications are at: https://www.rac.ca/en/rac/services/bandplans/allband.php

I'm rusty on my HAM rules, but I'm not sure it's even legal for some one to possess a transmitter without a license? And reputable dealers will only sell to buyers that show proof they're licensed.

So a licensed HAM could provide still provide the transmitter for use in a non-HAM's rocket, and supervise the use of the equipment... but the non-HAM wouldn't be legally able to supply their own tx.

Also remember that certain frequencies are available for HAM use only as "secondary" operators. And of course the equipment has to be IC approved (which I know the BeeLine 70cm unit is - I checked).

A very rusty VE9KD