Licence 1 advice

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Space Oddity

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I know I've asked a similar question before but having moved on a bit I'd like to ask it again.

What do I have to do to gain a licence 1 in the UK?

Before you ask, I've written to the UKRA and local clubs. I've had replies which have been a bit ambiguous.
This is my situation:

1. I've attended a couple of EARS meetings this year but "the right people to speak to were unavailable". The days weren't wasted though. I enjoyed the events and Malcolm managed to sell me more stock parts than I really needed. No problem though, my grandson is having a great time making strange devices that actually fly!

2. I think I understand what is involved in designing and making a medium powered rocket strong enough to qualify for a licence 1.

3. I've bought a 3 grain, 29mm Cesaroni case, and designed a rocket that is compatible for that and a 6 grain case as well. Mostly for flying G and light H motors. I've built the first rocket with a 2.56 body tube. I think however I'll build another with a 3" tube as that will fly slower and at less altitude to make recovery a possibility. I'll buy the extra parts I need on the September 7th EARS event (if it goes ahead).

4. If I go for a license 1, I want it to be a joint effort with my grandson. His name on the certificate as well as mine.

5. I'm not going to join EARS or the UKRA until January the 1st 2015. I'm not prepared to pay a premium for less than half a year.

6. Any licence 1 rocket we try to qualify will be our own design and build. That's where the satisfaction comes in, rather than with a pre-qualified kit.

So what do I need to do. Obviously join EARS and gain somewhere to fly with the right safety in place. But do I need to join UKRA as well? I'm told that I do in order to cover the insurance.
I know these are fairly fundamental questions and obvious to all of you that have done it before. But for "first timers" who want to get it right, confusingly frustrating.

Even more basic questions. Do the clubs provide launch controllers or should I bring mine? What launch rails do they use, what type of lug should I include on the design? What is the best motor to use? I assume the lowest thrust H?

I know some of you have done this before (at EARS) so any knowledge and advice you are able to share will be appreciated.

All the best,

SO.
 
FOG - that's my local club has a super top RSO who brings his pad, rods, rail and controler for all to use. If you have your own your allowed to bring it and fly it. Personally, it's worth having so you can fly when not at the club and also to make your own. I have and it's well worth it.

Have you flown any HPR?

L1 you need to document the build to show you know what your on about. Good build and a soild rocket. Nothing OTT but keep it simple.

3'' is cool, you'll want bigger and bigger as you go along.

L1 is only for 1 person. Nothing to say you couldn't build 2 and fly them 1 after each other. He will need BMFA and UKRA in his own name.

UKRA was £10 for me and I did it 2 months ago. I fly RC and my BMFA was due. I worked hard for my wages so it's a reward to allow me to do the hobbies safely.

DIY build is well worth it. My L1 is here, very simple build. https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...4-OD-38mm-Bluetube-3D-Rocketry-Hi-from-the-UK

Join UKRA nah, that's the likes of EARS telling you. It's an option. What I did was BMFA via my club as it helped them. They helped me so it's follows. That and membership was £38 I think. UKRA was £10. Done.
 
That's great advice, thanks.

A bit disappointing about doing it jointly with my grandson. I'm sure they'll have a scheme that gets him involved though. If not it's a non starter.

In answer to your question, No, I haven't flown an HPR yet. The 2.56 rocket I described is the first beyond D motors. I'll try that first before I build the 3" rocket. Hopefully if EARS fly on September the 7th. Bear in mind that will be with a G motor.

Your link to the rocket was good. It raises a point though. Is dual recovery practically necessary for an L1 attempt? It does make things more complicated but at the same time, recovery too risky at 2000 ft without it?

SO.
 
Don't know the UK rules, but I did my L1 with single deploy on an Aerotech Sumo. In the USA, only L3 requires dual deploy.
 
That's great advice, thanks.

A bit disappointing about doing it jointly with my grandson. I'm sure they'll have a scheme that gets him involved though. If not it's a non starter.

In answer to your question, No, I haven't flown an HPR yet. The 2.56 rocket I described is the first beyond D motors. I'll try that first before I build the 3" rocket. Hopefully if EARS fly on September the 7th. Bear in mind that will be with a G motor.

Your link to the rocket was good. It raises a point though. Is dual recovery practically necessary for an L1 attempt? It does make things more complicated but at the same time, recovery too risky at 2000 ft without it?

SO.

They might but don't hold out for it. They might allow you both to drag race, so build same kits, fly them on a high G then take it in turns to fly your L1 using your Pro 29 case. Cost saving there.

I strongly recommend getting some HPR in. Least 4/5 flights so you know what to do, expect and have fun with it not going so far away or fast. I was really surprised what a F and G can do. My MPR hit 5K on a G and I walked 3 miles in 35c heat to get it.

Glad my link helped. I had only looked at the option of dual deploy but then went with single. I was trying to cover some options.
 
Thanks gents,

I'll take my controller with me as well. We made it a few months ago. Way over the top - two arming switches, voltmeter, a 12V 7AH battery, and a recently added Halfords battery Isolator with removable key (having read the UKRA rules). It connects to a 20 metre domestic extension lead from which I can run up to four wire pairs to the igniters. Too many continuity and indicator lights of course (for the interest of my grandson) which all adds resistance.

I read up on launch controllers and discovered that reliability problems often occur with crocodile clips and igniters, particularly with them shorting when firing clusters. So I bought some packs of 5A insulated, auto spade connectors and crimped them to the igniters. At 10p a connector a bit costly but they seem to work very well. So far I've launched single, double, and triple D motor clusters for perfect flights. Except for the double which is somewhere in a Norfolk Barley field. I suspect it will be discovered next winter when a surprised cow finds it mashed in a hay bale.

So thanks again. I'll let you know how things progress.

SO.
 
Thanks gents,

I'll take my controller with me as well. We made it a few months ago. Way over the top - two arming switches, voltmeter, a 12V 7AH battery, and a recently added Halfords battery Isolator with removable key (having read the UKRA rules). It connects to a 20 metre domestic extension lead from which I can run up to four wire pairs to the igniters. Too many continuity and indicator lights of course (for the interest of my grandson) which all adds resistance.

I read up on launch controllers and discovered that reliability problems often occur with crocodile clips and igniters, particularly with them shorting when firing clusters. So I bought some packs of 5A insulated, auto spade connectors and crimped them to the igniters. At 10p a connector a bit costly but they seem to work very well. So far I've launched single, double, and triple D motor clusters for perfect flights. Except for the double which is somewhere in a Norfolk Barley field. I suspect it will be discovered next winter when a surprised cow finds it mashed in a hay bale.

So thanks again. I'll let you know how things progress.

SO.

Post some photos please


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
View attachment 181188View attachment 181182View attachment 181183View attachment 181184View attachment 181185

Apologies for a late reply but here are a few snaps.

I've completed the rocket but not satisfied with the result.

Good things:

1. First time I'd cut fin slots in a tube. They were spot on, good tight fit.
2. First time I'd used fibre glass tissue on the balsa fins. Worked great, extremely strong. The fins shown in the photo are paper covered. I decided to cover them in glass fibre as an afterthought.
3. OR gave me the fin pattern. They fitted perfectly onto the motor tube.
4. It was an easy build.

Bad things:

1. In the fibre glass process I've learnt what acetone does to my best paint brush!
2. I've learnt how much weight the fibre glass adds. I also fibre glassed the tube between the fins. By OR and measurement I need to add 50 grams at the front end to compensate. I was also quite liberal with epoxy at the back end. It is a strong rocket though.
3. I won't buy a Loc nose cone again. As I stated in another thread, the quality was rubbish. The moulding flash was full of holes once it had been sanded off. There are alternatives at a couple of pounds extra. I'll go for them in future.
4. This is a rocket, ready for an F motor. Definately not a licence 1 candidate.
5. Papering fins and sanding. It's like ironing a cotton shirt. Takes hours to achieve a smooth finish.

lessons learned:

1. Lots.
2. Glass fibred fins are great. Much better than paper. I have an infinite supply of balsa so this is the way forward.
3. A licence 1 will come from a slower and safer 3" body tube.
4. Scratch built is harder but more satisfying. When it's right.
5. The digital callipers I bought a few years ago are fantastic for model rocketry. I never used them much before. They are accurate and only cost £5. The next buy has to be a set of digital scales that are accurate to within a gram or two.
6. Keep it simple.
7. Air extraction when glass fibreing.
8. In the words of whoever said it, "It's better to travel than arrive". When I get there the launch will be a formaility compared with the journey!

All the best.

SO.
 
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PS.

I've managed to buy some Estes 29mm retainers. One eighth of the cost of the one in the photo. I'll use them on initial flights. They are bulkier but compared with the aluminium retainer, I don't losing them if the rocket fails to return.

SO.
 
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Hi SO,

I couldn't see the images for some reason. But I think you are on the right path for your Level 1, basically the larger the rocket the easier it is to attain level 1 as the rocket will not fly so fast and so high on an H or an I.
I totally agree with point 8, I spend far more time making and finishing my rockets than I do flying them. In fact the flying part is just the icing on the cake. If you are building your own rockets it might be worth investing in Rocksim so you can check out your rockets stability and simulate launches. It is expensive, but for scratch builders it is a real boon.

Good luck with your L1, let us know how you get on.
 
Thanks Simon,

I use OpenRocket to assist with the design. First time round I went from "first principles". It took me about three weeks, firstly to recapture what I'd learned as a student, and secondly to cover all of the iterations that arose from stupid ideas and limited knowledge of aerodynamics - Never again! I went through what seemed like reams of A4, our full supply of pens, and the complete English Dictionary of whispered profanity. On the plus side, the rocket actually worked.

I will try and re attach the photos and an OR model of what I'm trying to do. The comments I receive on here are good and extremely helpful to a beginner.

SO.
 
View attachment MP2 L1.ork

I've attached a provisional design for an L1 attempt rocket. I would welcome any comments.

I have considered the following:

1) 3" body using a Quantum tube. It's all I can get hold of at the moment. I've never used one before and am uncertain as to how easy it is to cut fin slots. All I have are blades and saws.

2) A Public Missiles nose cone to ensure a match with the tube.

3) An Estes plastic retainer assembly.

4) Cesaroni 29mm motor tube (which I have).

5) Fibre glass covered fins.

6) The launch lugs shown will be replaced by 6mm rail buttons.

One question. For level 1 qualification in the UK, are there prescribed motors to use or can it be a choice of any H motor? Quite important as I have to buy the motor and don't want to get the wrong one.

SO.
 
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View attachment 187839

I've attached a provisional design for an L1 attempt rocket. I would welcome any comments.

I have considered the following:

1) 3" body using a Quantum tube. It's all I can get hold of at the moment. I've never used one before and am uncertain as to how easy it is to cut fin slots. All I have are blades and saws.

2) A Public Missiles nose cone to ensure a match with the tube.

3) An Estes plastic retainer assembly.

4) Cesaroni 29mm motor tube (which I have).

5) Fibre glass covered fins.

6) The launch lugs shown will be replaced by 6mm rail buttons.

One question. For level 1 qualification in the UK, are there prescribed motors to use or can it be a choice of any H motor? Quite important as I have to buy the motor and don't want to get the wrong one.

SO.

1 & 2 good moves, good parts an they work well. Who did you order with?

3, Any good, prefer mental my self so use Aeropack

4, You mean motor casing? Presume this is the starter set so a 3G case with 2 spacers?

5, Not really needed, keep it simple for your L1 then build your next one with extras added to it. You are using ply or G10 right?

6, I'll never fly off a rod again. I'm just about to set my small Estes all for a rail. So much safer and best move you can make.

7, H - I, fly it and have a normal straight flight, recover undamiged and you've your L1.

I did mine with a I287SS [video=youtube;88Zt3RN9MLg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk7_vgJAPtI[/url] and I540WT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88Z...et already being converted from 38mm to 54mm.
 
1 & 2 - haven't ordered yet. Got a choice of two suppliers. I'll let you know who and why.

3 - I did buy an aluminium retainer. It cost me £25! At the time I didn't know any different. Afterwards I discovered I could buy Estes retainers for £6 a pair. I'm planning to put the metal one in a glass case on the mantlepiece. Or maybe in the shed.

5 - Really needed. I have an unlimited supply of balsa. Also a reasonable supply of resin, hardner, and glass fibre tissue. Most cost effective way for me.

6 - Agree. Just need to find who sells them in the UK.

Thanks for the comments and the video. First time I've seen tracking smoke. What do you use for that?

SO.
 
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1 & 2 - haven't ordered yet. Got a choice of two suppliers. I'll let you know who and why.

3 - I did buy an aluminium retainer. It cost me £25! At the time I didn't know any different. Afterwards I discovered I could buy Estes retainers for £6 a pair. I'm planning to put the metal one in a glass case on the mantlepiece. Or maybe in the shed.

5 - Really needed. I have an unlimited supply of balsa. Also a reasonable supply of resin, hardner, and glass fibre tissue. Most cost effective way for me.

6 - Agree. Just need to find who sells them in the UK.

Thanks for the comments and the video. First time I've seen tracking smoke. What do you use for that?

SO.

1&2 if you wanted too could order together if states side. I have a buddy who boxes it all up for me. Cheap. There are 3 places in the UK. Paul maybe, Malcolm has all sorts and GB if you get a reply as his website shopping cart is still broken and no reply too mails.

3 I need too have a look at one.

5 Cost effective make sense. Some fine skills you got there then.

6 The rail or buttons? Buy your rail online. Think value frame was the cheapest in the end. Get a 2m length. 6 series, 30x30 and a heavy version.

Have you a pad?

Tracking smoke was a smoke grenade for airsoft (paint ball). The red was 3 of them. Visco fused to a single ematch off my altimeter.
 
Looks like a good design

1. Quantum tube is like plastic, I notice your fins go to the end of the tube, so you could probably use a saw, but it would be a bit tricky to cut them.
2. I have a couple of spare LOC nosecones so I could give you one of them to help keep your costs down. I'll check to see what the fit is like in a quantum tube this evening
3. I have never used a plastic retainer, so can't really comment on their effectiveness
4. How many grain is your casing, and do you have spacers for it? That'll be what dictates what you can put in it. Do you have the rear closure for it as well?
 
Hi SO,

I checked what I have, and I actually have a LOC 2.5 inch nosecone, 2 x 34 inch body tube sections and an inner sleeve/connector for them.
You are welcome to have these, I can give them to Malcolm to take to the next EARS meeting, or give them to you myself at the next Black Knights meeting.
Alternatively , if you are anywhere near London, we could meet up.

I no longer make cardboard rockets, I now only make them from fibreglass and carbon fibre.

pic. attached

IMG_4174.jpg

Simon
 
View attachment 187839

1) 3" body using a Quantum tube. It's all I can get hold of at the moment. I've never used one before and am uncertain as to how easy it is to cut fin slots. All I have are blades and saws.

2) A Public Missiles nose cone to ensure a match with the tube.

3) An Estes plastic retainer assembly.

One question. For level 1 qualification in the UK, are there prescribed motors to use or can it be a choice of any H motor?

1. Quantum tube fin slots can be cut easily using a Dremel with cutting wheel. Just mark out accurately and use a light touch. Take your time. You won't do it with a blade...

2. Be careful with mixing PML stuff with other stuff - the internal diameter is slightly smaller than say, loc precision. However for a nose cone you can just add tape to get a tight fit.

3. Does this Estes retainer keep the CTI closure in place? I've not seen one and am unsure if it's designed to keep CTI closures in. The motor ejection event is quite forceful and you don't want your casing and closure to fly out the back end!

On the motor, any H motor can be used but seems some have done L1 on I motors. I'd use H to maximise your chances for certifying.
 
I used an I as my L1 was big and heavy. Plus the 1st I motor I bought was cheap as my club chairman was selling up. Go big or go home as some might say.

A H will make plenty of noise.

Have you flown any HPR?
 
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