CTI VMAX Reliability

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dshmel

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I have flown 4 G250's and 4 H410's in since the fall of 2011. I have had one of each CATO. A 25% failure rate seems high.

Has anyone else experienced a higher than normal failure rate with VMAX? if 25% is normal, then I will quit flying them as they have destroyed 2 rockets.
 
Those delays don't always light too! Found out the hard way.

Alex
 
I have launched quite a few (8-10) and never had a CATO. I have only seen one Cato.

Did you get the igniter all the way to the end of the grains?
 
Did you get the igniter all the way to the end of the grains?

Yes. Both failures were of the forward delay / ejection element. The G250 toasted the inside of the rocket, while the H410 blew the nosecone inside out.
 
Email Jeroen directly. He is fair, and very knowledgeable. I had an issue with a CTI motor and he has been very helpful. Tough to lose a rocket. I would have lost a rocket but elected to put the motor in a different rocket. I assumed that the event was a cato, but Jeroen helped sort out the info. Mine was an overpressure event that blew off my Aeropack retainer due to the paper tube failing. This saved my rocket.
 
I have flown 36 Vmax motors in the past year and a half. Several G250's as well as H410's, usually in clusters of three, with NO Cato's at all. It has been my most reliable motor to date in sizes from 24mm to 75mm. Sorry to hear you have had problems with them.
 
Here are some photos:

[/ATTACH] P7270049 - Copy - Copy.jpgP7270055.jpgP7270049 - Copy.jpgP7270050.jpg
 
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And the video:

[video=youtube;UltyNjIz18A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UltyNjIz18A&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
Last time I used a H410VM, I had the ejection fail as well. Delay grain lit, but apparently gets snuffed out part way through the burn when the motor suddenly shuts down. Makes me a bit nervous using VMAX; have a few more in my box I'm hesitant to put in a rocket.

Those delays don't always light too! Found out the hard way.

Alex
 
If you're experience CATOs, you need to be sure to fill out a MESS report. This data goes to the testing organizations and is important for helping identify if there's a problem.

Discussions on here don't do anything to help with that.

-Kevin
 
Dwayne , please dont get offended if im wrong . Did your motor case leave the rocket from the cato or did you remove the case. The nose cone shows sever hit damage ( mushroomed shoulder , crushed bottom , eyehook snapped right off ) . What is the brown residue on the front of the case ? I also see in your motor picture theres fibers stuck to the ( broken front clouser ) front. Any idea what the fibers are ?

Eric
 
I've flown several Pro38 3 grain VMax motors - the I566 - with no trouble.

I should add that these are all electronic deployment flights, so the delay grain isn't a factor. My experience with another very fast propellant, Aerotech Warp 9, is that the smoke grain (they don't call it a delay for this reason) is always snuffed out. I haven't dissected my CTI I566 motors post flight, so I don't know whether this is happening there, or not.

As others have noted, fill out a MESS report, and contact Cesaroni.

Mark
 
I've flown a few G185 38mm 1 grain past year with no problems motor deploy , my super jart loves that load :)
 
The motor case stayed put. It was retained using a PML HAMR retainer. The body of the rocket is fine. The nosecone is toast. I also had a Jolly Logic Altimeter 2 that was destroyed. Found a few pieces of it though. The mushroom on the end of the motor case was caused by the CATO. The case had only a few flights on it prior, and it was in perfect shape.

Dwayne , please dont get offended if im wrong . Did your motor case leave the rocket from the cato or did you remove the case. The nose cone shows sever hit damage ( mushroomed shoulder , crushed bottom , eyehook snapped right off ) . What is the brown residue on the front of the case ? I also see in your motor picture theres fibers stuck to the ( broken front clouser ) front. Any idea what the fibers are ?

Eric
 
If you're experience CATOs, you need to be sure to fill out a MESS report. This data goes to the testing organizations and is important for helping identify if there's a problem.

Discussions on here don't do anything to help with that.

-Kevin

I have successfully launched both the H410 and I566 using the engine ejection as back up only to electronics, and have also never had any issues. However as Kevin has indicated us sharing this really does nothing to help identify a potential issue, and filling out a MESS report should be the corse of action.
 
I experienced a failure with a 747J1055 where the delay never burn and the ejection work , good thing I have altimeter backup, and I'm not the only one that happen, you will have problem with Aerotech delay too if they are too hold, launching rocket is a risk to have motors failures, this is part of the game.
 
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In the last 2 years or so I've flown 3-4 of the 24mm vmax offerings both 1g and 3g (purchased at different times from different batches) and I also have 1 or 2 in the garage waiting for a good opportunity to fly, with no problems at all yet. Only thing I have noticed is for my rockets the provided ejection charge is a little lite so I always add powder.
 
One thing I have noticed is CATOs tend to happen in batches. If the motors are made the same time, catos are more likely to reoccur. I bought motors of the same batch. Same manufacture date. 2 of the 3 had a CATO. I have flown the same type of motor many time prior without a CATO. It might be a coincidence, but I think not.
 
I'm glad you all brought up the fact that the delays in the VMAX motors don't light all of the time. I am planning to use an I455 VMAX on the maiden of my LOC DoorKnob. Originally I was going to use motor eject, but I've decided to complete the nose cone Alt bay and use the motor as a backup. I'd hate to see my first HPR flight in 13 years end in a lawn dart.
 
If the motors are made the same time, catos are more likely to reoccur.

Agreed. I think this has occurred with year "X" of Estes C5-3 motors, as well as some BP E12's.

However, I am not familiar with how the information about statistically significant motor malfunctions is communicated out to the rocketry community from Marion, IA. In the case of the Aerotech J1999N decertification, the mass failure occurred at LDRS-29 and Aerotech issued a product bulletin 2 days later on 6/15/13.

Is there a bulletin board where we can go to? Is that www.motorcato.org/
 
Agreed. I think this has occurred with year "X" of Estes C5-3 motors, as well as some BP E12's.

However, I am not familiar with how the information about statistically significant motor malfunctions is communicated out to the rocketry community from Marion, IA. In the case of the Aerotech J1999N decertification, the mass failure occurred at LDRS-29 and Aerotech issued a product bulletin 2 days later on 6/15/13.

Is there a bulletin board where we can go to? Is that www.motorcato.org/

The data collected via the MESS website is disseminated to NAR S&T, TMT and CAR MC3. As found necessary, they will work with motor manufacturers to issue recalls or any other action deemed necessary. They then work to get the word out as quickly as possible.

-Kevin
 
Agreed. I think this has occurred with year "X" of Estes C5-3 motors, as well as some BP E12's.

However, I am not familiar with how the information about statistically significant motor malfunctions is communicated out to the rocketry community from Marion, IA. In the case of the Aerotech J1999N decertification, the mass failure occurred at LDRS-29 and Aerotech issued a product bulletin 2 days later on 6/15/13.

Is there a bulletin board where we can go to? Is that www.motorcato.org/
If you have a motor failure, please file an on-line MESS report at https://www.motorcato.org and please report it to the motor manufacturer to establish a warrantee claim and let them know about the failure.

NAR S&T, TRA TMT and CAR MTC conduct frequent communications and notifications via a private mailing list. Motorcato.org was established and is administered by NAR S&T after consulting with TRA TMT and CAR MTC in a joint effort to get more folks to report motor failures. It has been successful in that the number of reported failures has risen since the website was established, however there are still less than 200 motor failures reported each year, which would not be problematic if it were not for our guestimate that most of the motor failures go unreported.

We need to have multiple failure reports before we notify a manufacturer that there could be an issue with a certain motor. Because we don't get a large number of failure reports, it usually takes months to identify a problematic motor lot. LDRS is a national launch and both TRA BOD and TMT members witnessed the mass failure along with the manufacturers representatives so notification and statistical analysis was unnecessary and reaction was swift unlike most launches where it is rare have multiple failure of a single motor type.

Unfortunately we are not clairvoyant. If you don't file both reports, neither the certifying authorities nor the manufacture know there was a problem and nothing will happen. Please report motor failures promptly and provide the motor label ID (for example R50000-P) and the date code in your response along with information on how the motor failed.

Bob Krech, NAR S&T
 
If you have a motor failure, please file an on-line MESS report at https://www.motorcato.org and please report it to the motor manufacturer to establish a warrantee claim and let them know about the failure. ...

Done, and done.

... We need to have multiple failure reports before we notify a manufacturer that there could be an issue with a certain motor. Because we don't get a large number of failure reports, it usually takes months to identify a problematic motor lot. ...

Which is why I posted the thread in the first place. I was soliciting information from forum members (952 reads so far) about their experience with a particular propellant in a effort to gauge risk. I have 3 more H410's from the same date lot (Jan 23, 2013). I don't have 3 more rockets that I am willing to risk to establish a statistically meaningful conclusion (for myself) that this is a "bad batch" of motors. According to the CTI website their warranty is one year from the date of manufacture. Technically, they don't have to honor a warranty claim on this motor (or the other 3). I purchased these from Wildman on Black Saturday and received them on January 16, 2014. So I only had about a week left on the warranty.
 
Those delays don't always light too! Found out the hard way.

Alex

^ This happened to me this weekend at AIRFest. Short Wildman Jr. was set up to test some electronics before relying on them in a larger rocket. No motor deploy left the rocket sticking in the ground with the last 6 inches exposed. I had to dig for the rest of it. Only minor scratches on the fiberglass. I destroyed the nosecone, but that was mostly because I was sick and tired of digging; with about an extra 30 minutes of patience, it could have been rescued as well. I don't think I'll rely on them for motor eject any more.

Doug
 
^ This happened to me this weekend at AIRFest. Short Wildman Jr. was set up to test some electronics before relying on them in a larger rocket. No motor deploy left the rocket sticking in the ground with the last 6 inches exposed. I had to dig for the rest of it. Only minor scratches on the fiberglass. I destroyed the nosecone, but that was mostly because I was sick and tired of digging; with about an extra 30 minutes of patience, it could have been rescued as well. I don't think I'll rely on them for motor eject any more.

Please be sure to fill out a MESS Report
 
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