Fin re-enforcement on an Estes Vagabond

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MAD

MAD

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Alright, having some trouble on this one...

Tired of shredded balsa fins, so I have taken to paper laminating the surfaces of them.

This is a fairly big low power rocket, capable of engines in the E-range, and I want to say surface mount balsa fins are a bad idea. (I'm no expert, this is all just from research and reading things)

I like a nice rounded leading edge. What I have been doing is rounding said edge first, gluing the paper to side A, folding the paper around the leading edge, and then gluing the paper to side B.

This is not going to work with a Vagabond, due to the fin design not having a straight leading edge...

WP_20140727_08_12_25_Pro.jpg

I'm entertaining a couple of ideas, the most drastic of which is to scrap the balsa fins entirely and to cut out new fins with the same shape from thin plywood on a scrollsaw, with extensions so I can mount them through the fusealage to the engine housing. Yes this would be heavy but I value durability above an extra 100ish feet of altitude.

I would appreciate any input. Thanks for your time
 
As an intermediate step before going to plywood you could cut the fins out of basswood. However, I don't see that it is really needed.

I used a vagabond kit in a scratch build where I extended the rocket and put the fins on a BT70 tube. I papered the original balsa fins and they held us wonderfully just being surface mounted. I typically launched that rocket on an F39. I think I had at least 10 flights on that rocket before it crashed into a car window at LDRS. One of the fins broke at the joint where the two pieces of balsa are glued together. Other than that damage due to impact with a window, the fins have held up nicely with just the papering.
 
I rounded all the fin edges (other than root). It wasn't the prettiest where the two pieces of balsa where joined. But then, it was one of my first rockets as a BAR and first attempt to paper fins.
 
MAD said:
Alright, having some trouble on this one...
Tired of shredded balsa fins, so I have taken to paper laminating the surfaces of them.
Click to expand...

I'm curious as to why you are shredding fins.
The new Estes "balsa" is more likely Tung wood, harder and denser than balsa.
The only models where I've ever reached the S.O.B. (Speed Of Balsa) was a boost glider.
Unless you are building stock and upgrading the models for composite motors is shouldn't happen.
 
Last edited:
hcmbanjo said:
I'm curious as to why you are shredding fins.
The new Estes "balsa" is more likely Tung wood, harder and denser than balsa.
The only models where I've ever reached the S.O.B. (Speed Of Balsa) was a boost glider.
Unless you are building stock and upgrading the models for composite motors is shouldn't happen.
Click to expand...

My guess is this is why he is trying to paper the fins.

Anyway, here is my 2 cents on this. First off I would not use an index card for papering this. Instead i suggest using some 8.5" x 11" 110# cardstock. you should be able to find this at Walmart for cheap. You can also use full sheet adhesive labels if you so choose, but the cardstock will be cheaper. Plain printer paper can work here too as well, but it may not hold up to the bigger E motors you seem to want to run.

You are also going to need 2 pieces of paper per fin. As you have noted you can't wrap around the paper on a leading edge cleanly. While this will leave the leading edge exposed, this can be solved by using superglue to seal those edges. Hopefully this helps you out.
 
My apologies for the confusion. I am not using index cards to paper these. The fin is just resting one while they epoxy holds the fin pieces together and cures.

thank you everyone for your input.
 
I have flown surface-mount fins on "F" impulse with no problems. Use the "rivet" method like the old Estes catalogs showed, taking a pin to make holes in the fin and body. Some people add extra holes for the fillet to grab onto, but I just use method 1.

Next "double glue" the joint by applying a THIN coat of glue (I am talking wood glue or Titebond here) to both surfaces, let it dry. Re-apply a thin coat to the fin and stick it on. You will find it "grabs" almost instantly and you can get the fin aligned and perpendicular, then you don't have to hold it as long.

I built my Vagabond this way and have had no problems with it. The fin itself will break on a hard landing before the fin/body joint fails!

FinJointGlueRivetMethod1.jpg

GlueRivets2.jpg
 
@rocketguy101: Hmm, I never heard of the rivet method. How far into the fin do you go? Do you go all the way through the bodytube? (Assume so but ya never know.) Also could this combined with a TTW style fin and papering to make something that could withstand up to a G? (Thinking something like a Mega Mosquito here, though I am sure there are plenty of rockets that are not designed for G's that could be made to do so.)
 
Tanarin said:
@rocketguy101: Hmm, I never heard of the rivet method. How far into the fin do you go? Do you go all the way through the bodytube? (Assume so but ya never know.) Also could this combined with a TTW style fin and papering to make something that could withstand up to a G? (Thinking something like a Mega Mosquito here, though I am sure there are plenty of rockets that are not designed for G's that could be made to do so.)
Click to expand...

I use a "T" pin, and stick it in the fin about 1/16" or so. I do go through the tube, unless it is a minimum diameter rocket and the engine is going to fit inside the tube. I also install the engine mount prior to making the pinholes and gluing, etc. There was an old thread on TRF 1.0 (the archive) covering this https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showthread.php?t=34846 with the other methods brought up later.

If you do this on TTW, I would not place rivets on the engine tube...it could interfere with the fit. I have put pinholes in the TTW fin tab and on the outer tube/fin joint.

EDIT: I thought this was covered in the old Estes catalog "Technical Sections" (yellow pages) that were in the 1969 era catalogs, but I looked on Ninfinger's site, and the 69-70 catalogs just show gluing the fin on the surface. So, perhaps it was in one of the Model Rocket News issues Estes published? Or some of Centuri's publications?
 
Last edited:
Alright, I like it.

I'm not going to try rounding the leading edges on this rocket, and just leave them clean and straight. I like what jayarrG7 did with his, and painted all of the leading edges black.

I think that combined with the "rivet" method shown here will work nicely. Thanks =)
 
Newbe chiming in: What is the TTW method?

Thanks for the idea about the rivets. That's a nice addition to my arsenal :)
 
morlock said:
Newbe chiming in: What is the TTW method?

Thanks for the idea about the rivets. That's a nice addition to my arsenal :)
Click to expand...

Through The Wall ... the fin has a tab that fits through the body tube and attaches to the engine tube. This provides for a stiffer fin joint. You can also attach to the centering rings for more strength and support.

TTW1.jpg

TTW2.jpg
 
MAD said:
Alright, having some trouble on this one...

Tired of shredded balsa fins, so I have taken to paper laminating the surfaces of them.

This is a fairly big low power rocket, capable of engines in the E-range, and I want to say surface mount balsa fins are a bad idea. (I'm no expert, this is all just from research and reading things)

I like a nice rounded leading edge. What I have been doing is rounding said edge first, gluing the paper to side A, folding the paper around the leading edge, and then gluing the paper to side B.

This is not going to work with a Vagabond, due to the fin design not having a straight leading edge...

View attachment 179022

I'm entertaining a couple of ideas, the most drastic of which is to scrap the balsa fins entirely and to cut out new fins with the same shape from thin plywood on a scrollsaw, with extensions so I can mount them through the fusealage to the engine housing. Yes this would be heavy but I value durability above an extra 100ish feet of altitude.

I would appreciate any input. Thanks for your time
Click to expand...

rocketguy101 said:
I have flown surface-mount fins on "F" impulse with no problems. Use the "rivet" method like the old Estes catalogs showed, taking a pin to make holes in the fin and body. Some people add extra holes for the fillet to grab onto, but I just use method 1.

Next "double glue" the joint by applying a THIN coat of glue (I am talking wood glue or Titebond here) to both surfaces, let it dry. Re-apply a thin coat to the fin and stick it on. You will find it "grabs" almost instantly and you can get the fin aligned and perpendicular, then you don't have to hold it as long.

I built my Vagabond this way and have had no problems with it. The fin itself will break on a hard landing before the fin/body joint fails!
Click to expand...

Are you "shredding fins", where the fin itself is breaking during flight? or is the fin falling off and is in need of reinforcing the attachment mounting method? Two entirely different things. Are your fins just breaking off at landing? When you shred a fin, it usually goes unstable during the flight and starts skywriting.

The "Speed of Balsa" usually doesn't come into play until you start using higher "G" impulse motors.

If you truly want to strengthen your fins and not add to much weight, consider glassing your balsa. I use super light .75oz glass cloth and finishing epoxy. A single layer on each side does wonders. It ends up stronger than plywood and lighter than bass. Use with peel-ply for super smooth finish (mylar or wax paper can work good as well). Use epoxy and the "rivet method" to attach.


Jerome :)
 
Okay, I am using the wrong terminology. At the time of this writing I was unaware that "Shredding" meant a fin disintegrating from the force of liftoff. I meant i was tired of the rockets landing on the fins and breaking them, looking "shredded"

Yes I am an ignoramus...
 
MAD said:
Okay, I am using the wrong terminology. At the time of this writing I was unaware that "Shredding" meant a fin disintegrating from the force of liftoff. I meant i was tired of the rockets landing on the fins and breaking them, looking "shredded"

Yes I am an ignoramus...
Click to expand...

Naw... I've been into rockets off and on since I was 9 years old... I learn something new almost everyday. That's the beauty of TRF! We all share what we know. The rocketry jargon can be a difficult one to learn.

The rivet method with carpenter's glue fillets should solve your problem! Do 3, 4 or more fillets on each side of the fins. The glue joint will be much stronger than the balsa or cardboard fins! Now if you start breaking the balsa or ripping cardboard layers off the tubes, we will talk about other issues like parachute and streamer sizes! :p


Jerome :)
 
I had to go back a few years to dig up an old build thread I did, then had to re-populate some pictures that had been moved, but here is a thread on a couple of Vagabonds I built back in 2011. I got some pretty good pic's of papering the fins in post #20:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?26226-Estes-Vagabond-rebuild-kit-bash

I also built another Vagabond with through the wall fins, but didn't document it in a build thread. I will see if I can find some pic's, but I have MILLIONS of rocket pictures....
 
Alright everyone, this one is finished, and compares well next to my QSS-Explorer. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Next project will be the Ventris that has been in my storage locker since last october

WP_20140729_22_23_32_Pro.jpg
 

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