Unnamed and Untamed, 3" MD Wildman build!

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jus_rockets

jus_rockets

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I started flying with a new club called Tripoli Phoenix that has a 50,000ft waiver and I want to touch at least half of it. I have hit one and two miles with a PB of around 12K feet, now I want to double that altitude to about 20-25K feet. The hardest part of this project will be the recovery of the rocket, I am still deciding on which GPS tracker to use. "Unnamed and Untamed" is essentially a 3" Wildman rocket with the exception of a different airframe which is Proline profusion. It will be designed to fly on the CTI 75MM 4 grain motor to an altitude of 20-25K feet. The epoxy used to attached the fins is Rocketpoxy, and the fincan will get one or two layers of 6oz 2x2 twill carbon fiber. I will be using Head End Deployment using one or two SL100's. I have tested the Head End Deployment setup in another rocket and have gotten great results, it is easy to prep and the rocket always lands fairly close because of the setup. Two thing I still need to focus on are motor retention and a shock cord mount. So if any of you have any suggestions or ideas feel free to help, I need all the help I can get.



Fins attached using Rocketpoxy



Here is the layout of the rocket as of now
 
Nice simple design Juan, you should get some serious altitude with it. For the fincan retention, check out my thread on the CF Mongoose 75:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?67436-Mongoose-75-motor-hardware

Check out Kaycee's build thread in post #10, and my idea for improvement in post #13. The forward closure for both AT and CTI 75mm has 3/8 x 16 threads. I got a 3 ft piece of all thread at ACE Hardware that will be cut to length for different size casings in my Mongoose.
 
Last edited:
Wayco said:
Nice simple design Juan, you should get some serious altitude with it. For the fincan retention, check out my thread on the CF Mongoose 75:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?67436-Mongoose-75-motor-hardware

Check out Kaycee's build thread in post #10, and my idea for improvement in post #13. The forward closure for both AT and CTI 75mm has 3/8 x 20 threads. I got a 3 ft piece of all thread at ACE Hardware that will be cut to length for different size casings in my Mongoose.
Click to expand...

Wow,, Thank you for that one...
I absolutly did not know this...
I fly Aerotech for the most part,,,
with some EX ambitions...
I thought that CTI did not offer a thread in a forward enclosure....
Maybe it's just their cases below 75mm ?????

Teddy
 
BLKKROW said:
Subscribed.

I love the simple look of the rocket.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I am a K.I.S.S. type of guy.



Wayco said:
Nice simple design Juan, you should get some serious altitude with it. For the fincan retention, check out my thread on the CF Mongoose 75:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?67436-Mongoose-75-motor-hardware

Check out Kaycee's build thread in post #10, and my idea for improvement in post #13. The forward closure for both AT and CTI 75mm has 3/8 x 20 threads. I got a 3 ft piece of all thread at ACE Hardware that will be cut to length for different size casings in my Mongoose.
Click to expand...

Wayne thanks for the link, that is exactly the way I am going to build it. Now we need to build a launch tower for these high altitude birds.



Aksrockets said:
Have any ideas on your max velocity?

Alex
Click to expand...

I am getting Mach 2 with a CTI L1115, I just ran a quick sim but I will have to tweak it more.
 
onebadhawk said:
Wow,, Thank you for that one...
I absolutly did not know this...
I fly Aerotech for the most part,,,
with some EX ambitions...
I thought that CTI did not offer a thread in a forward enclosure....
Maybe it's just their cases below 75mm ?????

Teddy
Click to expand...

All of CTI's 75 and 98mm motors are plugged and use that forward closure. For 38 and 54mm motors, Aeropack makes an adapter that screws into the top of the reload where the ejection charge goes:

https://aeropack.net/min_dia_retainers.asp

Their MD retainer is pretty slick, but takes up a lot of room. You can make your own with a short piece of coupler and a bulkhead, or sandwich the bulkhead between two couplers like Kaycee did.

Correction: the threads in the larger forward closures are 3/8 x 16.

jus_rockets said:
Thanks! I am a K.I.S.S. type of guy.

Wayne thanks for the link, that is exactly the way I am going to build it. Now we need to build a launch tower for these high altitude birds.

I am getting Mach 2 with a CTI L1115, I just ran a quick sim but I will have to tweak it more.
Click to expand...

Kaycee is also bringing a simple launch tower to Airfest, I will take pictures and we can make something up after I get back. I bought a wire feed welder from Harbor Freight that will help us with that project.
 
Last edited:
Wayco said:
All of CTI's 75 and 98mm motors are plugged and use that forward closure. For 38 and 54mm motors, Aeropack makes an adapter that screws into the top of the reload where the ejection charge goes:

https://aeropack.net/min_dia_retainers.asp

Their MD retainer is pretty slick, but takes up a lot of room. You can make your own with a short piece of coupler and a bulkhead, or sandwich the bulkhead between two couplers like Kaycee did.

Correction: the threads in the larger forward closures are 3/8 x 16.



Kaycee is also bringing a simple launch tower to Airfest, I will take pictures and we can make something up after I get back. I bought a wire feed welder from Harbor Freight that will help us with that project.
Click to expand...


Wow,,
I read the linked page,,
very cool,, thank you,,
It says you may use the threaded adapter on the minimum D retainer..
But you may not use their adapter to attach recovery hardware....
I wonder why ???
Maybe because of the direction of the force exerted on it....

Teddy
 
onebadhawk said:
Wow,,
I read the linked page,,
very cool,, thank you,,
It says you may use the threaded adapter on the minimum D retainer..
But you may not use their adapter to attach recovery hardware....
I wonder why ???
Maybe because of the direction of the force exerted on it....

Teddy
Click to expand...

I had to go back and read that about the recovery hardware. It's just the adapter that screws into the top of the motor that can't be used for recovery. The MD Retainer has an eyebolt on top that I'm using for the recovery anchor point. The adapter screws into the bottom of the retainer to hold the motor in place. The adapter by itself, screwed into the top of the plastic ejection charge well wouldn't be strong enough to use as an anchor point. I think CJ mentioned he has just screwed a 1/4" x 20 eyebolt into the hole there and used it as an anchor point, but you would still need motor retention for that to work.
 
Wayco said:
I had to go back and read that about the recovery hardware. It's just the adapter that screws into the top of the motor that can't be used for recovery. The MD Retainer has an eyebolt on top that I'm using for the recovery anchor point. The adapter screws into the bottom of the retainer to hold the motor in place. The adapter by itself, screwed into the top of the plastic ejection charge well wouldn't be strong enough to use as an anchor point. I think CJ mentioned he has just screwed a 1/4" x 20 eyebolt into the hole there and used it as an anchor point, but you would still need motor retention for that to work.
Click to expand...

I fly Aerotech.
I use closed threaded enclosures for recovery quite often.
I tried to purchase a CTI load an couldn't use it for this reason.
I was just curious as to whether Aeropac made an adapter so you could screw an eye into a CTI case.
I also used a Aeropac Minimum D retainer in a 38 Minimum D rocket I built,,,, very cool....
Close but no cigar.... lol

Teddy
 
Last edited:
I flew a 4 G 75 last year at Airfest in my 75mm SpaceCowboy. EX motor went to 18,887 ft. This was with a 16in payload bay and the rocket weighed 7 lbs ready to fly.[no motor obviously] Fins were 1/8 in. and just held on with large fillets. No glass cloth re-enforcement of any type.

I did friction fit with one wrap of Aluminum duct tape cut to 1in. wide around the motor & airframe joint.

I do this all the time & it's never failed. As you say simplicity is the way to go. Just an eyebolt in front closure to attach recovery gear & act as failsafe for motor hardware.

But you MUST use the real ALUMINUM duct tape... get it at any big box store, about 7-8 bucks for a roll. Also doubles as one of the best tapes to use to snug up a coupler or NC shoulder.

Wish I had seen your design beforehand , would have recommended reducing fin size by 20-25 %

Get your hands on one of the new tailcone closures from CTI... that will add close to 1,000 ft per 10,000.


PS EDIT: Yes I have just screwed an eyebolt into 54mm closures, after slightly opening them up with a 3/16ths bit. Placed in the chuck.... but HAND turned carefully so I did not drill the delay from the top! And yes I friction fit all those flights with a wrap or 2 of masking tape on the case... just to snug it up... and a full wrap of aluminum tape on the outside on the airframe/motor joint.

Folks tend to over think this stuff. If you do it right.... it works every time.
 
Last edited:
OK CJ, enough with all the tips, remember that Juan is flying with MY club. How do you expect me to keep up with him if you give all the secret tips to going higher out over the forum?
Just kidding Juan, you know I will be cheering you on when you fly this beauty at our next launch. I think Sharon and I can keep up with our Mongoose, it will hold the 6xl casing. And I have the boat tail closure for both the 54 and 75mm CTI motor casings. :wink:
I don't think Jim has given everything away, there are still a bunch of folks shaking their heads wondering how the fins stayed on that Space Cowboy... Pretty sure those were not just 1/8" fins either.
 
Wayco said:
OK CJ, enough with all the tips, remember that Juan is flying with MY club. How do you expect me to keep up with him if you give all the secret tips to going higher out over the forum?
Just kidding Juan, you know I will be cheering you on when you fly this beauty at our next launch. I think Sharon and I can keep up with our Mongoose, it will hold the 6xl casing. And I have the boat tail closure for both the 54 and 75mm CTI motor casings. :wink:
I don't think Jim has given everything away, there are still a bunch of folks shaking their heads wondering how the fins stayed on that Space Cowboy... Pretty sure those were not just 1/8" fins either.
Click to expand...

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?66313-3-quot-2-Stage-Alpine-Style

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?55965

Min dia builds with 1/8" G10 fins and no layups anywhere in sight. Batting 100% flying up through full N motors. The most recent 3" one just flew last weekend on a 7600 with no issue.

Just rough the crap out everything, nail the alignment, make big fillets with good epoxy and sleep easy. With the 1/4" carbon fins that come with the Mongoose, any layups will be unnecessary added weight. I built several Mongooses back in the day with layups that wound up being heavier than they needed to be, which is what hatched the series of projects linked to above. Ain't nothing but a thing.
 
I have spent the last two days going over Jim Jarvis's CF layup for the TwoCarbyen, quite detailed and thorough. Now I just spent an hour reading both the threads you linked above. The rocket gods have not been kind to you. Some of your comments seemed to be aimed in my direction, like " I touch-sanded it on the rump of my benchtop belt sander, which gets some nice deep scratches in there -- certainly cringeworthy to the "bond composites the professional way by activating it with fine sandpaper" camp, probably enough to give 'em an aneurism" and " Butalane and I swear that if we were building Wildman kits and flying them on CTI motors our projects would garner more interest."
Since you got 1,878 views on that thread, I think there is plenty of interest in your thread. But you are right, my thread "Wayco's Dark Star Extreme" got 2,960 in less time. Regardless, I really like your writing style and philosophy when building rockets. Not that I'm gonna start my next build a week before Airfest, or use 60 grit on the carbon fiber fincan of our Mongoose 75. :y: But I will definitely consider big fillets and not doing the tedious CF tip to tip layups. Since I'm already on the "dark side" with most of my builds being Wildman kits, it wouldn't be a stretch for me to go "Alpine style" with the Mongoose build. I'm planning on talking to anyone with Mongoose experience at Airfest to get ideas for that build, which will start shortly after that launch. I hope you will be there and share your ideas with me.

Juan, sorry to hijack your thread like this, but there's lots of good information being posted up here, we can learn a lot from people like CJ and Prophecy.
 
Wayco said:
Kaycee is also bringing a simple launch tower to Airfest, I will take pictures and we can make something up after I get back. I bought a wire feed welder from Harbor Freight that will help us with that project.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan!


blackjack2564 said:
I flew a 4 G 75 last year at Airfest in my 75mm SpaceCowboy. EX motor went to 18,887 ft. This was with a 16in payload bay and the rocket weighed 7 lbs ready to fly.[no motor obviously] Fins were 1/8 in. and just held on with large fillets. No glass cloth re-enforcement of any type.

I did friction fit with one wrap of Aluminum duct tape cut to 1in. wide around the motor & airframe joint.

I do this all the time & it's never failed. As you say simplicity is the way to go. Just an eyebolt in front closure to attach recovery gear & act as failsafe for motor hardware.

But you MUST use the real ALUMINUM duct tape... get it at any big box store, about 7-8 bucks for a roll. Also doubles as one of the best tapes to use to snug up a coupler or NC shoulder.

Wish I had seen your design beforehand , would have recommended reducing fin size by 20-25 %

Get your hands on one of the new tailcone closures from CTI... that will add close to 1,000 ft per 10,000.


PS EDIT: Yes I have just screwed an eyebolt into 54mm closures, after slightly opening them up with a 3/16ths bit. Placed in the chuck.... but HAND turned carefully so I did not drill the delay from the top! And yes I friction fit all those flights with a wrap or 2 of masking tape on the case... just to snug it up... and a full wrap of aluminum tape on the outside on the airframe/motor joint.

Folks tend to over think this stuff. If you do it right.... it works every time.
Click to expand...

I have had good luck with friction fit before and I know it works if you do it right! I will take a look at the aluminum duct tape, thanks for the advice. I was contemplating on reducing the fin size but just decided to leave them alone since I would have better stability.

Wayco said:
OK CJ, enough with all the tips, remember that Juan is flying with MY club. How do you expect me to keep up with him if you give all the secret tips to going higher out over the forum?
Just kidding Juan, you know I will be cheering you on when you fly this beauty at our next launch. I think Sharon and I can keep up with our Mongoose, it will hold the 6xl casing. And I have the boat tail closure for both the 54 and 75mm CTI motor casings. :wink:
I don't think Jim has given everything away, there are still a bunch of folks shaking their heads wondering how the fins stayed on that Space Cowboy... Pretty sure those were not just 1/8" fins either.
Click to expand...

LOL! I am the one trying to keep up with You, Sharon, and TRAPHX! I don't think I will have a chance with your Mongoose on a 6XL:jaw: I will definitely pick up some tailcone closures to gain more altitude.



Wayco said:
I have spent the last two days going over Jim Jarvis's CF layup for the TwoCarbyen, quite detailed and thorough. Now I just spent an hour reading both the threads you linked above. The rocket gods have not been kind to you. Some of your comments seemed to be aimed in my direction, like " I touch-sanded it on the rump of my benchtop belt sander, which gets some nice deep scratches in there -- certainly cringeworthy to the "bond composites the professional way by activating it with fine sandpaper" camp, probably enough to give 'em an aneurism" and " Butalane and I swear that if we were building Wildman kits and flying them on CTI motors our projects would garner more interest."
Since you got 1,878 views on that thread, I think there is plenty of interest in your thread. But you are right, my thread "Wayco's Dark Star Extreme" got 2,960 in less time. Regardless, I really like your writing style and philosophy when building rockets. Not that I'm gonna start my next build a week before Airfest, or use 60 grit on the carbon fiber fincan of our Mongoose 75. :y: But I will definitely consider big fillets and not doing the tedious CF tip to tip layups. Since I'm already on the "dark side" with most of my builds being Wildman kits, it wouldn't be a stretch for me to go "Alpine style" with the Mongoose build. I'm planning on talking to anyone with Mongoose experience at Airfest to get ideas for that build, which will start shortly after that launch. I hope you will be there and share your ideas with me.

Juan, sorry to hijack your thread like this, but there's lots of good information being posted up here, we can learn a lot from people like CJ and Prophecy.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, I like all the good info and feedback this thread is receiving. I decided to only do one layer of 6oz CF and I should get started on it this weekend.
 
Wayco said:
I have spent the last two days going over Jim Jarvis's CF layup for the TwoCarbyen, quite detailed and thorough. Now I just spent an hour reading both the threads you linked above. The rocket gods have not been kind to you. Some of your comments seemed to be aimed in my direction, like " I touch-sanded it on the rump of my benchtop belt sander, which gets some nice deep scratches in there -- certainly cringeworthy to the "bond composites the professional way by activating it with fine sandpaper" camp, probably enough to give 'em an aneurism" and " Butalane and I swear that if we were building Wildman kits and flying them on CTI motors our projects would garner more interest."
Since you got 1,878 views on that thread, I think there is plenty of interest in your thread. But you are right, my thread "Wayco's Dark Star Extreme" got 2,960 in less time. Regardless, I really like your writing style and philosophy when building rockets. Not that I'm gonna start my next build a week before Airfest, or use 60 grit on the carbon fiber fincan of our Mongoose 75. :y: But I will definitely consider big fillets and not doing the tedious CF tip to tip layups. Since I'm already on the "dark side" with most of my builds being Wildman kits, it wouldn't be a stretch for me to go "Alpine style" with the Mongoose build. I'm planning on talking to anyone with Mongoose experience at Airfest to get ideas for that build, which will start shortly after that launch. I hope you will be there and share your ideas with me.

Juan, sorry to hijack your thread like this, but there's lots of good information being posted up here, we can learn a lot from people like CJ and Prophecy.
Click to expand...

Happy to be of some inspiration/help - let me know if you need any additional info.

Keep an eye out for an Airfest/Balls thread and I look forward to meeting you in Argonia.

S
 
Not much of an update but I did sand the fincan so it's ready for the T2T. I also decided on how I am going to build the 75-54 adapter using a Aeropack tailcone retainer. I plan on flying it next month at GHS in Kingman on a K550W.

 

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