Estes Fin Alignment Tool

Hey All. I am a BAR. Just fresh back into it for the last couple of months. I still have a few rockets from the late 70's and early 80's. My son is 11 and flew his first rocket at his school this Spring. Since then we have built a HyperBat, Wizard, and just starting a Patriot. Mom and son also bought me the Big Daddy for Father's day that I finished recently which we hope to fly this week.

Anyway... My eyes aren't that great and I forgot what a pain it was to get fins just right so I thought....I am going to buy that Estes thing to do the fins. It will make it a more enjoyable experience for both of us (especially since I bought a bash kit and can build several rockets).

Maybe I am too picky, but the thing is off alignment! I made sure it was not my lines. After swapping the plastic pieces to different locations, I found a combination that might be acceptable, but I am really thinking about just taking it back. Anyone else notice this? Did I just get a bad one? I can probably tweak it, but basically one of the guides is pretty crooked, no matter which fin insert I use, although some make it slightly less. Not exactly sure how to tackle it without making it worse, yet. It is plastic, so...

Maybe I should have built my own.

I am amazed at how many BARs there are out there. (yep...I had to google the term just weeks ago) It would be nice to know someone in the Knoxville, TN area that does this and knows of a good field. I have a park near me that is about 600'x400' that I used a couple times now. After going to a rocket event in middle TN, I would really like to find a place closer to try mid-power. I checked out a couple of model airplane fields, and one has some potential, but it is not geared for rockets. The 3 hour one-way trek to Manchester, TN is a little far for the whole family to really enjoy, but at least it may be an option!

Is there an introduce yourself place here?, or we just rip into it?

Thanks.

I have recently purchased the Estes fin alignment tool. I was on the fence about building my own. Now I wish I had put the money into materials for my own jig. Like you, one of the guides is not plumb. I was hoping for more and would not recommend it to anyone who wants straight fins.

Before you guys give up on it, try contacting Estes. They back their products and have excellent customer service!

Jerome

rugger09 said:

I have recently purchased the Estes fin alignment tool. I was on the fence about building my own. Now I wish I had put the money into materials for my own jig. Like you, one of the guides is not plumb. I was hoping for more and would not recommend it to anyone who wants straight fins.

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Ditto. I just got my first one to celebrate my upcoming BAR-ification (BAR Mitzvah? yuckety-yuck) and one of the fin guides is crooked. I'm pretty sure it's just the one guide and not the base since the angle that it's off depends on which way I insert it (1/8 vs. 3/32). I thought about warming that guide up with a heat gun and bending it a bit.

Then again, this is just a $15 toy. I suppose if I want professional results I just need to buy or build a professional jig.

Still, my pouty lip is sticking out a bit, was all excited and then the letdown.....

I had one but gave it away.
I'm @%@( about Fin Alignmet, and even though the Fin Tool/Jig was not defective, it was not nearly perfect enough for me.

I bought one in the early nineties. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes it needs a bit of tweaking. I really don't have too much of a problem with it. It depends on the model. I don't use it all of the time—maybe a half to a third. I know I'm not spending any sort of heavy paper on fin jig. My eyes aren't that bad yet.

I use mine all the time and have had no problems. All of my builds are average sized, low power models and the alignment turns out well. I am more obsessed with finishing so a very slight problem with alignment does not bug me. But what do I know, I can't even sand an airfoil!

I have a few points to add. First- I really hope Diego Costa is healthy- because that would be huge for Chelsea this year!

second- WTH does BAR stand for. I've found all kinds of things online, and have no clue which.

Third- maybe I'm being simple- but I used a simple protractor I have for woodworking, a big one, and cut two sets of cardstock. One with 90 degree angles and wedges cut out of the corner, and the other with 120 degree angles with wedges cut out (so it can fit over the tube). After gluing fin number one, I rotate my body tube in whatever rack I'm using to hold it, and as I glue the fin on, I simply hold it with one hand, and hold the cardboard angle guide with the other. Kinda takes the eyes out of it. I also have on at 180 degrees- with a semi- circle cut out.

BAR - Born Again Rocketeer

I've had an Estes Fin Jig for many years. Over that time I've added several things to it to make it a bit more accurate and more versatile. That said I've replaced it now with two much more accurate home made Alignment tools shown below.

supersteve said:

I'm pretty sure it's just the one guide and not the base since the angle that it's off depends on which way I insert it (1/8 vs. 3/32). I thought about warming that guide up with a heat gun and bending it a bit.

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Well, I paid around $21 for mine...local store and near 10% tax. When you swap one guide with another, does it get worse/better? I thought about heating it up a little as well.

I will try to call Estes and see what they say.

I like to keep things simple, and then get a lot of information, and next thing you know, I am building a room to store the equipment that is needed to make the jig, to align the fins. I thought I would go simple and get this thing, thinking I was over-thinking it. hahahaha

It is great seeing ideas on something like this. It does seem like it should be simple, but some of you have come up with some really neat ideas. I almost want to make one of these jigs just to show it off.

Also, something just doesn't seem right about going to the toy section at Walmart (even though their engines include wadding). At least I got this at a hobby store.

I am not happy with mine. the first rocket I tried to use it on was a Big Bertha, and the fins extend so far beyond the bottom of the tube, that it really did not work at all, and I just gave up and glued them on by eye as usual. Since that first try, I've only built D and E powered rockets with BT-80 or larger body tubes, so it doesn't work for that either. For anything that is TTW, I assume the slots hold the fins perfectly parallel to the tube, and I use a piece of cardboard with a hole to match the BT diameter and slots cut at 90 or 120 degrees to get the angle between fins correct. That works well enough for me.

I'm hooked on Payloadbay Templates and Foamboard now. Can't get much better than that.

personally, i am a fan of Tim VanMilligans tool found here
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Building_Supplies/Tools/Guillotine_Fin_Jig
its a bit overpriced imho but the ease and perfection it grants to the rocket builder is priceless...

fatdaddynerd said:

personally, i am a fan of Tim VanMilligans tool found here
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Building_Supplies/Tools/Guillotine_Fin_Jig
its a bit overpriced imho but the ease and perfection it grants to the rocket builder is priceless...

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That's nice, but yeah, it's a little rich for my Blood.
I could build something like that.

ttbit said:

When you swap one guide with another, does it get worse/better?

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The guide in question got a a little better in a different hole, where evidently errors in the base and the guide seem to cancel each other a little. I still get a bit of the Leans One Way, Flip It And It Leans The Other Blues.

I'll break out the heat gun when I get the chance. Btw does anyone know what kind of plastic this is?
I'm probably going to &%#@ this one up.

I like these.
https://www.qualmanrocketry.com/Fin_Guides.html

fatdaddynerd said:

personally, i am a fan of Tim VanMilligans tool found here
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Building_Supplies/Tools/Guillotine_Fin_Jig
its a bit overpriced imho but the ease and perfection it grants to the rocket builder is priceless...

Click to expand...

The biggest difference between most fin jigs on the market and my Guillotine design is that the Guillotine uses the outside diameter of the body tube as the reference for both radial and longitudinal alignment whereas most other jigs are dependent on the motor mount as a reference. If the motor mount is not perfectly concentric within the body tube then alignment is affected. Then there is the variation in tolerances between various tube manufactures which means that there will always be some slight "wobble" when a motor mount is slid over a mandrel. The other major difference is that the device is adjustable to an infinite range of both fin thickness and body tube diameters, limited only by the size of the device. (Same thing with the Phillips screwdriver.)

I believe my design is superior to anything else on the market. If one only builds a couple of rockets per year then yes, it is expensive. But if you are like me and lose many builds to the Rocket Gods it will pay for itself many times over. And it ain't made of plastic!

I appreciate your comments and delighted that you use one of my tools.

There are a couple of things you can do to it to improve its accuracy. I put a bolt into it to stabilize the central mount. If you look at the pictures you will see I also taped on some spent motor casings so that it will not wobble on the bolt. This isn’t my idea. If you look around on the forum you will probably find the posts that go into it with more detail.
I don’t use it anymore because I bought an “ultimate Rocket fin guide”. https://www.ultimaterocketfinguide.com/ It is a bit pricy but you can buy a mandrel to fit almost any body tube so you don’t have to worry about getting the motor mount on perfect first.

A couple of nice choices out there that I did not know about. I would have never thought of the Guillotine design and the way I am leaning. It makes so much sense. I saw the youtube video of the prototype the other day(cracked me up). Once you see how and why it works, it seems so simple.

I appreciate the responses. It gave me a few things to try for sure. If my son keeps some keeps up the interest, or we find a bigger field, an investment in one of these makes sense.

Supersteve:Sounds like we have the same thing going on. I think I will use the best 2 out of 4 guides if I cannot return it, for a couple of builds my son and I are in the middle of. Please let me know if you break out the heat gun. My last experience with the heat gun was on my Big Daddy. Had paint that fogged. Fixed it right up. Oh...and then I learned the limits of white glue on papered fins! DOH!

adding a 1/2" bolt and nut to the estes fin alignment guide instantly transformed it into a much more user friendly rocket building aid for me. The standard size (A-C) casing literally screws onto the bolt like they planned it that way. My next improvement will be making some simple shims so I can use thinner G10 fins with the guide.

I just got one along with some other rocket stuff. I used my birthday as the occasion. I think this tool is getting sort of a bad rap. It's not a guillotine tool but then again it doesn't cost what one of those does either. The 1/2 inch bolt mod is a no brainer, I picked one up at the the hardware store today, but my mind keeps trying to focus on some sort of spring loaded mandrel that would expand or contract to accommodate various size body tubes and take the motor mount out of the equation.

Yeah...The masking tape mod works fine as well.

TopRamen said:

That's nice, but yeah, it's a little rich for my Blood.
I could build something like that.

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I made my own couple years ago, look here in the Archives to see it
https://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70288&d=1328011866

I also use the plastic Estes unit, have 2 of them, but what I did was a little different.
I filed off all the exess mold at the die joints, which made the fin guides loose.
I then set all 3 or 4 fins at once, move em in tight, make sure the body tube is verticle with a 6" level, then measure the distance between the farmost out dimention of each fin until equal.
Since my Guilitine is for BT-60 and larger, this is a bit of work, but it's Rocket Science. Not glue n stick can't fail stuff.
Also, used engines can be combined to lengthen the distance between fin base and engine mount for those low hanging fin desings like the Big Bertha.
Take care all, hope it helps someone.