Why not hybrids?

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

karlbaum

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
674
Reaction score
7
I am curious what the forum thoughts are on hybrids. Why or why not flyers using hybrids? I use hybrids because they cost less per flight than do solids. If you are into EX they are easier to make hybrid fuel grains.
 
PITA My buddy has 1 not sure which one.I live in the desert he said if it gets over a certain temp its worthless. Seen him fly it once and attempt to probably 3 times. And ground support is expensive. I like the good ole fire n smoke.
 
I've never flown anything but hybrids. Yes they are complex, finicky, and temperamental. They also give a little relief from the boredom of Whoosh! Pop!

Since I've gotten into pyrotechnics, my fuel grains have taken on some, ahem, new characteristics....

Kevin
 
Hi,
In Poland we're building hybrid rocket motors for a year, because in our country hybrids are only one legal propulsion. Solid rocket motors contain an explosive materials and there are illegal. Building motors on a sugar also is illegal. So we don't have any other alternatives such as hybrid motors. We don't have Cesaroni, Aerotech motors, cause we are not in a TRIPOLI or other association. Ground support is quite expensive, and Nitrous Oxide also is expensive, but these motors is only road to do legal rocketry in Poland.

Damian
 
I got into rocketry just before the big Aerotech fire. I did both my level 2 and level 3 on Hypertek hybrids. Our club had some GSE, but only a couple people knew how to use it, it was not very user friendly. There were 1 or 2 people to help out, but they didn't get to fly themselves. And, with limited hybrid pads, you had to wait.
After my last hybrid attempt, I gave up. I had an "M" motor that started to ignite, and then just sat on the pad and burned. I had to rebuild the booster on it. The fuel grain burned about the top third of it, almost like a line had been drawn in it. Very unusual. I sold all my hybrid stuff a few years ago, and bought a 75 case for solid reloads.
I don't regret selling the hybrid stuff at all. I'd rather push the button and fly, then mess around with something on the ground that "might" work.
Phil L.
 
i started with hybrids and love them. I just haven't flown them as much lately because I got lazier. But next year I will fly more. Some particular hybrid loads are spectacular in the total flight experience, nothing in AP matches them.

Hybrid launching requires you to follow a consistent SOP and get each steps right. It is not difficult but if you are not detail oriented it will be more unreliable for you. I have NEVER had a problem with a Hybrid launch, 100% success. But you have to understand gas pressure, gas tight plumbing, valves and how 2 phase gas/liquids work. But once you learn the basics its not that difficult to repeat. For AP all you have to understand is stick the igniter all the way up.

Another consideration for me now that I travel relatively long distances to launches is a tank and GSE is one less thing I have to pack if I just limit myself to AP.
 
What happened is that TRA/NAR "won" the ATF lawsuit and regulation didn't end hobby use of APCP. (Solids are easier to use and more reliable so they're always going to be more popular.)
 
We had a recent flier try 5-10 time to get one to light. Most of that was the system. AP is relatively cheap and very reliable.
 
PITA My buddy has 1 not sure which one.I live in the desert he said if it gets over a certain temp its worthless. Seen him fly it once and attempt to probably 3 times. And ground support is expensive. I like the good ole fire n smoke.

On warm days the nitrous tank needs to be placed in a bucket with a wet towel around it and it will keep cool. They are more work than using commercial solid motors.
 
Last edited:
Hi,
In Poland we're building hybrid rocket motors for a year, because in our country hybrids are only one legal propulsion. Solid rocket motors contain an explosive materials and there are illegal. Building motors on a sugar also is illegal. So we don't have any other alternatives such as hybrid motors. We don't have Cesaroni, Aerotech motors, cause we are not in a TRIPOLI or other association. Ground support is quite expensive, and Nitrous Oxide also is expensive, but these motors is only road to do legal rocketry in Poland.

Damian

Damian, thank you for pointing out that from a legal standpoint hybrids have the advantage because they do not use highly flammable materials. Nitrous oxide is less than half the cost of AP another advantage. For non- Hypertek you do need a pyro preheater grain. But even this can be done with gaseous oxygen and steel wool.
 
Some guys do research motors which are far more difficult than commercial motors and have a "learning curve" and can be prone to failure. Hybrid research motors are much easier to make and far less expensive.
 
Karl,

You are probably write in the long term, but there is a significantly higher start up for a club.
 
I don't fly hybrids anymore because Aerotech stopped making reloads.
 
Damian, thank you for pointing out that from a legal standpoint hybrids have the advantage because they do not use highly flammable materials. Nitrous oxide is less than half the cost of AP another advantage. For non- Hypertek you do need a pyro preheater grain. But even this can be done with gaseous oxygen and steel wool.

As I wrote in our country we don't have any commercial motors. We must build the motors completely from scratch. So we acquire experience while we testing our constructions. The same is in the case solid rocket motors. We must project them and make it in the garage, despite the fact that it is illegal - we're talking with the Ministry of Economy and we want to legalize it. We want building research rockets, but now only legal road is hybrid propulsion.

I envy you that you have large choise of legal solid rocket motors. And you don't have to calculate rocket motors - you will buy it and you may fly with legal and safe rocket motor...

N2O is easy in handle, but in Poland you must have a business activity and write a statement of the purpose to using Nitrous Oxide. And you have to carrying heavy gas cylinders.

Solid rocket motors and hybrid propulsion are two oders kind of propulsion, with other characteristic and other advantages/disadvantages. However it would be great to have an opportunity of choice the legal propulsion, so you are in better position than us ;).

Damian
 
Hi,
In Poland we're building hybrid rocket motors for a year, because in our country hybrids are only one legal propulsion. Solid rocket motors contain an explosive materials and there are illegal. Building motors on a sugar also is illegal. So we don't have any other alternatives such as hybrid motors. We don't have Cesaroni, Aerotech motors, cause we are not in a TRIPOLI or other association. Ground support is quite expensive, and Nitrous Oxide also is expensive, but these motors is only road to do legal rocketry in Poland.

Damian

When rockets are outlawed only outlaws will have rockets. You can have my rocket when you pry it out of my cold dead fingers.
 
As I wrote in our country we don't have any commercial motors. We must build the motors completely from scratch. So we acquire experience while we testing our constructions. The same is in the case solid rocket motors. We must project them and make it in the garage, despite the fact that it is illegal - we're talking with the Ministry of Economy and we want to legalize it. We want building research rockets, but now only legal road is hybrid propulsion.

I envy you that you have large choise of legal solid rocket motors. And you don't have to calculate rocket motors - you will buy it and you may fly with legal and safe rocket motor...

N2O is easy in handle, but in Poland you must have a business activity and write a statement of the purpose to using Nitrous Oxide. And you have to carrying heavy gas cylinders.

Solid rocket motors and hybrid propulsion are two oders kind of propulsion, with other characteristic and other advantages/disadvantages. However it would be great to have an opportunity of choice the legal propulsion, so you are in better position than us ;).

Damian

Do you ever travel to other countries to fly rockets? There was an article about German rocket club Arbeitsgemeinschaft Modellraketen holding a launch in Leipzig in Rockets Magazine. I know that Leipzig is a long way to go but it could be worth the trip.
 
Do you ever travel to other countries to fly rockets? There was an article about German rocket club Arbeitsgemeinschaft Modellraketen holding a launch in Leipzig in Rockets Magazine. I know that Leipzig is a long way to go but it could be worth the trip.

Yeah, I know. But excluding the question of legality of the motors, launching rockets is legal. We cooperate with the military and we launching our rockets on a military ground areas where isn't civil law, but military law and it its legal. Couple of our rocketeers go to Germany on RJD rocket meeting and do the license there. I will go there next year.

When rockets are outlawed only outlaws will have rockets. You can have my rocket when you pry it out of my cold dead fingers.

I don't understand you. Hybrids are legal propulsion and we can build it. It isn't so dangerous. About solid rocket motors we have been talking with the Ministry of Economy since 2010 and we try to legalize it. One of polish rocket team wanted to open a business which will produce legal SRMs. But it is not a simple matter. We are doing everything to legalize solid rocket motors in our country. People who have builded SRMs and hybrid motors are wise and educated. Couple of us have been building a rockets since 70s!!! Our buildings aren't unthought.

To sum up, we are using hybrids beacouse at the moment it is legal road to making research rockets and we are trying to legalize solid motors all the time.
 
Yeah, I know. But excluding the question of legality of the motors, launching rockets is legal. We cooperate with the military and we launching our rockets on a military ground areas where isn't civil law, but military law and it its legal. Couple of our rocketeers go to Germany on RJD rocket meeting and do the license there. I will go there next year.



I don't understand you. Hybrids are legal propulsion and we can build it. It isn't so dangerous. About solid rocket motors we have been talking with the Ministry of Economy since 2010 and we try to legalize it. One of polish rocket team wanted to open a business which will produce legal SRMs. But it is not a simple matter. We are doing everything to legalize solid rocket motors in our country. People who have builded SRMs and hybrid motors are wise and educated. Couple of us have been building a rockets since 70s!!! Our buildings aren't unthought.

To sum up, we are using hybrids beacouse at the moment it is legal road to making research rockets and we are trying to legalize solid motors all the time.

The "outlaw" and "cold dead finger" statements are allusions to the issue of gun control here in the US. The NRA had ads with that verbiage replacing "rockets" with guns. I'm pretty sure the NRA didn't bother running the ads in Poland.
 
I don't understand you.
This was an attempt at humor or just plain silliness. If you substitute the word "gun" for the word "rocket" in both phrases, you'll have a couple of expressions some gun-nuts in the US use.

Good for you pursuing your interest in this hobby of ours with only the hybrid motors available to you. What is the range of total impulse for the various motors you can use? In the US, the hybrid motors I've seen have only been larger models but that may be because the smaller ones would be too expensive compared to the available solid propellant motors.
 
I personally have never used hybrids. Of all the years I've been flying, I've never seen a successful hybrid flight.
 
Thank you for clarifying :).

Good for you pursuing your interest in this hobby of ours with only the hybrid motors available to you. What is the range of total impulse for the various motors you can use? In the US, the hybrid motors I've seen have only been larger models but that may be because the smaller ones would be too expensive compared to the available solid propellant motors.

We are building research rockets, so we can use K-class motors and higher. For example I'm building 1400 Ns hybrid motor now (my first hybrid) and I will build larger motor soon (about 8000 Ns).

My friend are building E-class hybrid motors, cause hardware costs about $15 and reloads ~ $2. This motor is quite more expensive that F-class solid motor which we have from Czech Republic ($1), but it is 100% legal and lightest than solid motor. Some people in our society buying these hybrids for smaller rockets and have fun ;).

But it is true that bigger hybrids are more cost effective than small motors.
 
Thanks for the response, verex. Those are some very impressive impulse levels.

I wish you well on your builds. Please post some videos of the flights if you can.
 
My friend are building E-class hybrid motors, cause hardware costs about $15 and reloads ~ $2.

One of these or something new?

This motor is quite more expensive that F-class solid motor which we have from Czech Republic ($1)

Is there a 0 missing or are they really a dollar?
 
One of these or something new?

Is there a 0 missing or are they really a dollar?

Yes, that's something simmilar. My friend made some simmilar motors and it works great. If someone want to buy it, he will make a hardware and sell it ;).

Solid F-class motors from Czech Republic are for a dollar, yes. It calls ROS-40.
raketo1.gif

raketovy-motor-ros-40_w700.jpg


Motors are from army surplus and cost 3 PLN = less than 1 USD. Motors have 3 angled nozzles and 1 central nozzle. You must screw angled nozzles and drill central nozzle to 4.5 milimeters. Mass of the motor is 140 grams and fuel mass 25 grams. There are the cheapest solid motors in Poland, so we often build rocket with clustered ROS motors. There are very safety, we have about 5 CATOs in about hundred flights.
 
Karl,

I am member of the AGM :)
We are in fact a nation wide club, very active community. The 2 main events in Germany are Leipzig (mostly May) and Manching, near to Munich, this year end of August.
The Manching Launch to come is done in cooperation with Solaris, the other main German club. Experience shows great people coming together, lots of fun an beautifull flights on 3 days. We appreciate also international participation, mostly from Holland, Poland and Austria. Sometimes we welcome also flyers from other European countries.

I will fly my contrail hybrids this year again, from 38mm (H) up to 75mm (M). This year I will test also a 3x K hybrid cluster. Shall be lots of fun...
Last year we were 3 hybrid flyers, the other 2 colleagues using EX hybrids, beautifully made. I stick with my commercial hybrids, it just work like hell. Here I would say my costs are 1/3 of the AP costs for same impulse. But it is a lot to transport and setup. It is not complicated but the car is simply full *lol*...


Do you ever travel to other countries to fly rockets? There was an article about German rocket club Arbeitsgemeinschaft Modellraketen holding a launch in Leipzig in Rockets Magazine. I know that Leipzig is a long way to go but it could be worth the trip.
 
Last edited:
Hybrids are cool and they're unique to solids on a variety of levels. They have a loud and pretty distinct sound in my view, but there is added complexity. I've seen a number of successful flights, although there were some "technical" issues prior to launch on a bunch. Depending on the system, the ground support equipment can be expensive. The exception would be the old AeroTech hybrid system in that it didn't require ground support equipment at or near the launch pad, and that equipment was pretty much limited to a supply tank and scale and maybe some odd and ends. You just filled up the 3AL tank with N2O remotely while putting together the reload. The system was ignited using a standard "initiator" or "starter." Certainly not as complicated as other systems, but at the same time there wasn't much variety. They had only a few "pure" hybrid reloads and a few "turbos" where the reload was part or all APCP using N20 as a 'turbo' charger I guess.

Solids are super cool and lend themselves well to the masses. The added complexity, lack of a deployment delay system, ground support equipment of varying complexities and ultimately reliability, are the barriers to entry/overcome with hybrids which is why you don't see them much. Also, as someone else pointed out, APCP motors are easier to obtain now than they were several years ago and collectively this makes them the path of least resistance if you just want to fly rockets.

I used to build hybrids (a picture of one is in the middle of https://www.buyrocketmotors.com/about-me/) and it was fun. I have the parts but never had the time to actually configure it into something I could fly. A decent metal working setup with a lathe, mill, etc. are a huge plus. Otherwise, building from scratch is a difficult proposition although possible but probably very limited.

In the end, to each his own.
 
I plan on flying my hybrid rocket in Manching in 5 weeks time. I just find them exciting.... the preparation, fueling and all :)
 
I've never flown anything but hybrids. Yes they are complex, finicky, and temperamental. They also give a little relief from the boredom of Whoosh! Pop!

Kevin

What he said!

The other main reason I started developing EX-hybrids is that I've outgrown the local fields. (risk and altitude) A hybrid rocket can be shoved in a box and shipped anywhere in the US for about $50. Then I can get on an airplane, fetch my box from FedEx, and buy Nitrous locally. An EX-solid would require multiple days of driving which is a non-starter.

-->MCS

.
 
If you consider all the extra weight of the hardware, the performance of the smaller hybrids is much lower than that of a comparable solid. You have to be in the L and above range to see any real gains or benefits.


JD
 
If you consider all the extra weight of the hardware, the performance of the smaller hybrids is much lower than that of a comparable solid. You have to be in the L and above range to see any real gains or benefits.


JD

I still have my NOS tanks and hardware, they are almost empty but the 54mm tank still has 280gm or so in it and I do have two reloads, an I145H and I210H or something.
I was wondering if I could do an EX load with some simple APCP fuel and hit it with NOS in my 54mm AT hardware? The problem is the valves on the tank, they leak and the valve pin gets messed up.

-John
 
Back
Top