Rheintochter R1 - Pictures and Comments

I visited the Smithsonian Udvar-Hazy Center near Dulles Airport yesterday. I took the opportunity to take a nauseating amount of photos of a few missiles that I, and others (Denis, Mr. I can make anything fly stably, and with a hybrid motor at that) are considering building models of. The first of these was the super cool "you have to be sheisse-ing me" design, Rheintochter R1. Astro-Baby made a beautiful model of this earlier this year (Build thread: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?62727-Rheintochter-Rhine-Maiden), but pictures are not in abundance for this missile, so here is the everything detail I could pick out photo collection.

Disclaimers:
- My photography sucks, I am aware
- My camera sucks, I am aware
- I surely missed things, actually sorry about this one
- My comments on the individual pics (where they exist) are meant to call out the details I was trying to get, and may not be clear in the pics

To sum up: these pics are worth everything you are paying for them.

Away we go:

The Rheintochter is in probably the darkest corner of the museum, but possibly one of the coolest rooms (hangers) on earth as it contains the Space Shuttle Discovery (complete with reentry scorch marks, a Redstone Missile, Sounding rockets, Multitudes of missiles, myriad satellites, rocket motors, an instrument ring out of a Saturn V, a space suit that was on the F***ing Moon, multiple capsules, it goes on, and it is all mind blowingly dork cool.

By way of introduction, and to set the scale:



Yep, the entire missile is the worse pic of the lot.

Forward Third:



There are a few things that struck me:
- The nose, with the exception of the step is a relatively smooth curve, I believe there was some suggestion that this could be a more dramatically different combination of curves (I don't know if that made sense).
- There is at least one access door evident, along with two obvious band.
- There is one additional spacer not being used by wire ties. I imagine this would have been the forward most attachment of an enclosed wire conduit in the working rocket.

Central Third:

The interesting part in my book. Nozzles, doodads, and fiddly bits abound.



A few notes:
- The fin attachment is made up of multiple pieces, it is not just a difference in paint.
- The Nozzles are not very dramatic. It more looks like a kink in the pipe. I think replicating the subtle pinching in in anything but a big replica would be nearly impossible, or at least not visually apparent for the work involved.
- The dark, out of focus picture of a red thing is I-shaped, and attached evenly between two fins. I assume this is the fore rail guide...the aft guide(s) is/are a bit different as you will see below.
- What is that intricate looking doodad at the aft end of the fin at the root?

Wasp waist:

This is a truly characteristic feature of this missile, but I gather there is some debate (spawned by a dearth of data) about the shape, so print a pic and get out your rulers.



Note:
- It appears there is a bit of a curve to the fore section of the wasp waist.
- Again a rather abrupt step is apparent.

Aft end:



Points:
- Again the fin attachment metal bits are multiple pieces and not a single collar.
- There are bump stop looking bit aft of the fin attachment collar.
- The aft rail guides: there are two of them and splayed out rather wide, the pic only gets one, and just a touch of the other. They are symmetrically spaced with respect to the forward I-shaped rail guide.
- It is my impression that these fin supports were not original hardware, but that is not to say that there weren't fin supports on the real thing.

Brilliant. Thank you. As I had surmised in my build thread your pictures suggest the rearmost fins are not set at 45' to each other. I suspected that was the case because when you check pictures of the real thing on its launch rail it would be impossible to lay it on a rail with a 45' positioning of the reaf fins. I also have an in flight picture which suggested the rear fins are not at the 45' angke some drawings suggest. For all that I built with a 45' angle as it seemed sensible for a sport scale.

The missile on display does seem to lack the civer to the wires that run down at the nose. When that particular rocket was on display at its former home it showed a metal cover running over the wires. I think that missle (from memory) was at the Abredeen proving Grounds and the very old pics I have of it do show a conduit/trunking.

I also suspect that the real thing didnt have that step in the nose, possibly a German WW2 one had a cover over that. German videos and pics suggest a smooth nose but also changes in dimensioning - some pics seem to sugget a longer nose arranmgement and shorter wasp waist but the quality of the pics is so poor it would be hard to be sure.

Also my model was lost after four flights and flights 2 and 4 seemed to suggest the rear fins may have broken up due to oscillation - thats possibly why some German WW2 footage shows the rear fins braced with a block of what looks like plywood. Some museum photos show a metal bracing between the rear most fins.

Your pics are boon to me in the rebuild of my model so very many thanks for taking the time to bag these and post them up its very mjuch appreciated.

Cool Photos!

These are magnificent pics! Makes you wonder what they were thinking...it looks like it was built in a boat shop rather than by aviation people. And I have to wonder why the wasp waist. It's definitely got that steam punk look with the exposed hardware and the wood fins.

Astro-Baby said:

Brilliant. Thank you. As I had surmised in my build thread your pictures suggest the rearmost fins are not set at 45' to each other. I suspected that was the case because when you check pictures of the real thing on its launch rail it would be impossible to lay it on a rail with a 45' positioning of the reaf fins. I also have an in flight picture which suggested the rear fins are not at the 45' angke some drawings suggest. For all that I built with a 45' angle as it seemed sensible for a sport scale.

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Take another look at the last photo of the first set. Only the four steering fins are properly lit by the flash. Further back and somewhat darker are both the main sustainer fins and the booster fins, though the lower fins are hidden by the transparent barrier. Two fins are horizontal, these are two of the sustainer main fins. The next two up are indeed spaced by 90 degrees and are two of the booster fins. The top two are spaced 60 degrees to each other and to the horizontal fins, and are two more of the sustainer main fins.

I also suspect that the real thing didnt have that step in the nose, possibly a German WW2 one had a cover over that. German videos and pics suggest a smooth nose but also changes in dimensioning - some pics seem to sugget a longer nose arranmgement and shorter wasp waist but the quality of the pics is so poor it would be hard to be sure.

Click to expand...

The one I saw in Berlin Technical Museum was not as conveniently placed for photos, being supported upright rather than lying down, so I couldn't take such detailed shots as these. But I can confirm that this specimen does indeed have a smooth nose, with a cover over whatever the red thing is on the tip.

Also my model was lost after four flights and flights 2 and 4 seemed to suggest the rear fins may have broken up due to oscillation - thats possibly why some German WW2 footage shows the rear fins braced with a block of what looks like plywood. Some museum photos show a metal bracing between the rear most fins.

Click to expand...

Including these ones. CI(VII) also says his impression is that those braces are not original hardware. The additional slab fins, on the other hand, would be authentic as they show up in actual wartime footage.

Thanks for the photos, CI(VII)! That specimen is much better laid out for such photos than the one in Berlin Technical Museum, so I couldn't get such useful reference shots as yours. Nevertheless, here are mine for comparison:


The first is the booster by itself, without fins (you can see the fins in a rack in the background). One difference between this one and the one in Udvar-Hazy is that here there is one lug on the booster and two on the sustainer, whereas the one in Udvar-Hazy has them the other way round. Again it is clear that the fin supports are separate pieces, and that's probably because the same booster was used for Rheinbote but with six fins, not four. A Rheinbote booster would therefore need different supports.

The second picture is the sustainer motor. The small side nozzles are missing and so is the wire assembly. The fin attachment here seems to be integral to the body, possibly because the sustainer was not part of any other missile. A flange around the base of the wasp waist appears to meant to be bolted to the booster (this is also shown in one of your photos). Several bolts around the narrowest part of the waist would perhaps have been explosive to release the sustainer. (I've seen such an arrangement on the Russian SA-2 missile, the sustainer is supplied with a tail piece which is bolted onto the booster, then that piece stays with the booster and separates from the sustainer by means of exploding bolts.) That flange, along with its bolts, is the step you noticed.

Finally there's another entire specimen mounted upright. There's no sign of the odd metallic piece at the trailing edge root of one of the sustainer fins in your photo. The sustainer fins appear to be mostly metal with just a wooden leading edge. (The sustainer fins in the racks by the separate booster are different again, they appear to be wooden with metal reinforcing plates covering most of the sides.)

The separate booster and sustainer have writing on them indicating that they've previously done time at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough. The data card next to the complete specimen says that it is on loan from Royal Air Force Musuem Hendon.

adrian said:

Thanks for the photos, CI(VII)! That specimen is much better laid out for such photos than the one in Berlin Technical Museum, so I couldn't get such useful reference shots as yours. Nevertheless, here are mine for comparison: ...

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Thanks for the additional shots, especially the fin-less sections (really shows the fin mounting collars). There are indeed some notable differences, these two examples appear more like brothers than clones. I don't know enough of the history of this missile, but I assume it was rushed into service, and may have been a work in progress kind of thing. Looking on the bright side, the discrepancies will give the individual modelers a little leeway during building.

Fantastic thread & pics, what a great scale community!

Here a few "pics" from my simulation, for my coming winter build: a 8" near scale of the Rheintochter:



Eventually people may have a critical look to the current design with Rocksim, I attach the current work in progress. I plan a 2 stager, lower booster with 7x 28" hybrid motors from contrail and the upper stage with one 75mm K hybrid. The hybrid casings of the lower stage are the shortest I can get, means 28". For this reason the design is only "near-scale". In fact it would need to be shorter but I cannot get my casings into it. I think 7x J impulse shall make it easily )
The upper stage will be filled thru the casings of the lower stage, with a check valve between.
The fins will be detachable like the original, with exception of the ones on the NC. No other way to get that monster in my small european car *lol*...
At a later stage and anticipating a successfull maiden flight, I may consider to add appropriate electronics to the top NC-fins for active self-steering of the bird (for a perfect vertical flight).

legranddudu said:

Fantastic thread & pics, what a great scale community!

Here a few "pics" from my simulation, for my coming winter build: a 8" near scale of the Rheintochter:

View attachment 178511View attachment 178512View attachment 178513

Eventually people may have a critical look to the current design with Rocksim, I attach the current work in progress. I plan a 2 stager, lower booster with 7x 28" hybrid motors from contrail and the upper stage with one 75mm K hybrid. The hybrid casings of the lower stage are the shortest I can get, means 28". For this reason the design is only "near-scale". In fact it would need to be shorter but I cannot get my casings into it. I think 7x J impulse shall make it easily )
The upper stage will be filled thru the casings of the lower stage, with a check valve between.
The fins will be detachable like the original, with exception of the ones on the NC. No other way to get that monster in my small european car *lol*...
At a later stage and anticipating a successfull maiden flight, I may consider to add appropriate electronics to the top NC-fins for active self-steering of the bird (for a perfect vertical flight).

Click to expand...

You are gonna build WHAT?! :jaw: I wonder if I can find a conference in Europe that I just have to be in attendance for around that time? Hum, must think on this. That thing is going to be incredible, and deafening.

I finally made it to RAF Cosford on Sunday and managed to snap a few pics of their Rheintochter. I did most of my pics in vast resolution and sizes so I wont post them all up.

Heres a few scaled down for the forum, left on their sides so the format looks better on the forum......

First up is an overall view....

Next up is a close in view between the upper fins showing what I imagine is the fitting that would have mated to the launch rail. This appears to be missing from the lower fins, I would bet a 'ready to go' model would have had a matching pair between the lower fins and that is probably the strange item referred to in CI(VII)s post above - maybe

Next up is another overall view - its hard to get good shots of this one as its at the back of a hanger wedged behind helicopter - the Rheinbote is even worse off being totally behind the helo and impossible to get a good overall pic of.

I stepped back aways and shot this one with a longish lensing to try and keep the proportions correct and not cause any distortion caused by wide angled lensing.

This one probably conveys the proportions better than anything else - the teensy thing to the front of the missile is an F25 Fire Lily - I was amazed how tiny it was !!!!!!!!

The next four were all taken quite close in to get the deetail of the body. Just above the upper collar holding it to the wall there is a chunk missing - its a square opening about 6" square and I imagine this is where the external trunking must have terminated - there ws no trunking at all on this one - no wires , nothing.

There are three bolts set around the mid point of the wasp waist which I would take to be explosive bolts on the real thing suggeting seperation was at the narrow point of the wasp waist and this one has holes drilled into its rear most fins which must have been for the braces that show in some drawings of the Rheintochter and does show on some images though how authentic they are is impossible to guess.

This one most definitely has its rear fins set at 90' to each other. I laid almost flat to get under it so I could check this - this seems at odds with a pic I have of one in test at booster separtion which suggests the flying one may have had its rear fins set at a different angle but its very debatable.

Thats it - most of the others dont show anything thats not already been done on CI(VIII)s posts...I also bagged off some pics of the Scmtterling which is missing its outboard boosters and an Enzian (both of which are down for scale flying builds).

Thanks for the pictures! This thread is now probably the definitive reference for the Rheintochter.

Astro-Baby said:

There are three bolts set around the mid point of the wasp waist which I would take to be explosive bolts on the real thing suggeting seperation was at the narrow point of the wasp waist and this one has holes drilled into its rear most fins which must have been for the braces that show in some drawings of the Rheintochter and does show on some images though how authentic they are is impossible to guess.

Click to expand...

Yes, that is my impression of those three bolts as well - the base of the wasp waist is bolted to the booster, then the waist separates when the explosive bolts fire. As I said, the Russian SA-2 missile uses exactly this method - bolt the whole transition to the booster, then separate the sustainer with explosive bolts built into the transition.

This one most definitely has its rear fins set at 90' to each other. I laid almost flat to get under it so I could check this - this seems at odds with a pic I have of one in test at booster separtion which suggests the flying one may have had its rear fins set at a different angle but its very debatable.

Click to expand...

The one with the fins at a different angle may have been one of those with the rectangular slabs fitted to the booster. As well as eliminating fin flutter, those would provide additional yaw stability, so the fins themselves could have been set flatter to improve pitch stability. The Cosford specimen, like the Berlin one, has no such slabs, so the booster fins are spaced evenly to provide balanced pitch and yaw stability.

Your photos show the same rail guides on the sustainer as previous ones. CI(VII)'s photos show two more guides on the booster spaced wider than those on the sustainer, while mine show one central guide on the booster. Evidently there were more than one way to put a Rheintochter on a launcher!

Astro-Baby said:

Thats it - most of the others dont show anything thats not already been done on CI(VIII)s posts...I also bagged off some pics of the Scmtterling which is missing its outboard boosters and an Enzian (both of which are down for scale flying builds).

Click to expand...

Cl(VIII)? One little typo - that's a fast path to nobility. At least for an element.

Astro-Baby said:

I finally made it to RAF Cosford on Sunday and managed to snap a few pics of their Rheintochter. I did most of my pics in vast resolution and sizes so I wont post them all up.

Heres a few scaled down for the forum, left on their sides so the format looks better on the forum......

First up is an overall view....

Click to expand...

Thanks for adding your pics.

I think we have collected enough images to drive any OCD rivet counting scale modeler to the asylum. With photos we now have fin pods too. I didn't see any evidence for those in the Smithsonian example. I can't imagine there are many of these around, are there any more examples anyone knows of?

In the Deutsches Museum in Munich, on loan from the Smithsonian. It's in more of a 'Utility' finish than the psychedelic Hazy one.
I don't think my pictures are much better than theirs. THere are no tracking lights on that one either.
https://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19660037000