Insurance Deductible

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cwbullet

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How do most clubs handle damage to property? If there is damage, does the flier pay the deductible?
 
I think it varies, but if it were my flight, I would feel an obligation to pay it.

-Kevin
 
I agree with you. I am working on our new liability form to inform fliers before they fly. I am tempted to list the damages are the responsibility of the flier.
 
Is this in reference to the insurance policies provided by the national organizations, NAR/TRA? NAR splits the policy deductible in a non 50/50 manner with the flyer of the rocket. Not certain of the ratio and don't wish to guess. No idea about TRA's policy.

N
 
My view, if my rocket damages property, I would pay 100% and not expect the host club to even make an insurance claim.
 
I think that NAR is $5000 and the member is responsible for the first $1000. TRA does not list a member requirement but the deductible is $2500.
 
we have this on our flight cards..

I acknowledge ultimate responsibility for all aspects of this Rocket Flight. Signed:

I can't find our paper work that fliers and spectators sign when they pay their fees, but I'm sure they are signing a "holder AeroPac harmless", enter at your own risk type of thing

Tony
 
For paperwork I would simply state that flyer is responsible for damages caused by their rocket. How to deal with insurance policies can be dealt with at the time of an incident.
 
I agree it should be the flyer's responsibility if they were negligent in some way. Unfortunately not all share this thinking. I was at a TRA launch where a flyer obviously did not tighten his aft closure fully. The rocket was super underpowered off the pad, arched over into the flight line, and impacted the roof of my car doing severe damage. It also came inches from hitting to people standing next to my car. The flyer said "we all know the dangers out here", walked away and did not take responsibility. The TRA officials did NOTHING to help. Pretty lousy experience. I gave up on TRA after that.
 
Our club displays a Enter at your own risk sign. But if one of my rockets were to do damage I would feel obligated to fix the damage.
 
Not being the devils advocate here, but..... I think we all agree that the flier should be responsible, while we are here talking about it. I have to wonder though, when the rocket hits the car, how many of us would still keep that attitude? I would like to think that I would do my best to take care of it myself, but I have never been in that position to know for sure. In reality, in today's litigation happy society, I should not be flying rockets since I do not have the ability to easily hold up my end in the event of a situation...
 
Well if you look at law the organization as a whole not the individual could be held accountable... Unless some other binding contract was signed also the land owner could be held to some degree as well... You would probably turn it into your car insurance company as we are forced to pay for that against our will... You'd also have a burden of proof as to if the flier was actually negligent or if it was an act of god that happned....
 
I am actually shocked that the TRA is like this. You would think it would make it clear who covers what in this case.
 
I agree it should be the flyer's responsibility if they were negligent in some way. Unfortunately not all share this thinking. I was at a TRA launch where a flyer obviously did not tighten his aft closure fully. The rocket was super underpowered off the pad, arched over into the flight line, and impacted the roof of my car doing severe damage. It also came inches from hitting to people standing next to my car. The flyer said "we all know the dangers out here", walked away and did not take responsibility. The TRA officials did NOTHING to help. Pretty lousy experience. I gave up on TRA after that.

Nothing preventing you from suing...

You never REALLY give up your right to sue... even signing "waivers" and such...

Any lawyer worth his salt can find a way to file a lawsuit no matter what you've signed...

You had damages, he was responsible, whether he admits it or not or takes responsibility for it or not. So is the club, basically. Darn tootin' I'd be suing in that event... pay what you owe...

The NAR insurance is a definite bonus (and I've suspended flight activities on our farm because someone let the club charter with NAR lapse, and therefore with it the insurance, until I got WRITTEN CONFIRMATION vis a vis the insurance statement issued to the club showing the insurance was in full force and effect before I'd give a "go" for launches to resume-- too many "the check's in the mail" statements from a certain club officer had gone by with no response for me to accept that any more). Of course the NAR insurance isn't bulletproof... the deductible is $5000 even for a covered incident... and my experience has been that insurance companies facing paying an indemnity will do ANYTHING to get off the hook, and so you can bet that unless every "I" is dotted and every "t" crossed that they're going to try to weasel out... In MOST situations the $5,000 deductible is probably going to be more than the actual damages (except in extreme cases of property damage, a fire that destroys buildings, crops, or equipment, or bodily injury) and therefore the flier and the club are responsible for the damages up to the deductible amount (what "agreement" NAR has on covering the deductible below $5000 and down to what level is something I've not heard before, wasn't aware of, and not sure how that works). The good news is that a lot of homeowner policies also cover some rocket activities under personal liability provisions, and one can buy riders on their policy to increase their level of coverage for such incidents.

Sadly, most folks nowdays won't do the right thing unless you MAKE them do the right thing...

While the coverage is a definite bonus, it's certainly not foolproof, nor will it cover every eventuality, situation, or condition. There's really no substitute for safety and good judgment, and of course personal responsibility. Of course minimizing one's exposure to risk is always a good idea too... all the "serious incidents" I've personally witnessed or read about have largely been due to bad decisions or poor practices, often compounded by the size and construction of the rocket... most of the bad stuff I've witnessed and read about have been related to HPR activities where the additional weight, power, complexity, and stronger construction materials and methods necessary greatly increase the level of risk and severity of damage in the incidents that do occur. That's why our family farms simply refuse to allow HPR activities on our property-- there are other venues available for those wishing to pursue those activities elsewhere, and they're certainly free to do so. We simply don't want the liability exposure or risks, regardless of the supposed insurance coverage of such things...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I agree it should be the flyer's responsibility if they were negligent in some way. Unfortunately not all share this thinking. I was at a TRA launch where a flyer obviously did not tighten his aft closure fully. The rocket was super underpowered off the pad, arched over into the flight line, and impacted the roof of my car doing severe damage. It also came inches from hitting to people standing next to my car. The flyer said "we all know the dangers out here", walked away and did not take responsibility. The TRA officials did NOTHING to help. Pretty lousy experience. I gave up on TRA after that.

If you have a comprehensive auto policy, you might be able to make a claim on that policy and then let your insurance company take it up with TRA or the responsible party (whoever that may be.)
 
Who specifically does the policy protect? Does the policy protect the club only, or does it also protect all of the individual fliers too? Does it extend to individual club members? Guest fliers?

Part of the reason for flying at club launches is that the club is supposed to provide a safe environment. That includes having appropriate flight rules and also having RSOs and LCOs enforcing those rules and using their experience and judgement to conduct a safe launch. Obviously the flier takes some responsibility --- but if the flier pays club dues or pays a fee to join the launch, and the club sets up all the launch pads, launch controllers, flight line, viewing area, parking area, etc., the RSO inspects and clears the rocket, club members supervise the igniter hookup and launch angle, the LCO does the countdown and presses the button --- in that case, I think the club has taken on a lot of responsibility for the outcome of the flight.
 
I would feel responsible. On the other hand, i have been to launches where some of the club members were driving cars that I know I could never afford to repair.
 
but if the flier pays club dues or pays a fee to join the launch, and the club sets up all the launch pads, launch controllers, flight line, viewing area, parking area, etc., the RSO inspects and clears the rocket, club members supervise the igniter hookup and launch angle, the LCO does the countdown and presses the button --- in that case, I think the club has taken on a lot of responsibility for the outcome of the flight.

No, the club does due diligence to make sure all obvious hazards are minimized (not eliminated) in accordance with the safety code, common sense and to avoid negligence. The club does not guarantee safety. Responsibility lies TOTALLY with the individual who decided to put that rocket on a club pad.
 
Our club displays a Enter at your own risk sign. But if one of my rockets were to do damage I would feel obligated to fix the damage.

What if you rocket killed somebody, and the family wanted $5 million?

I'm just throwing it out there as a question, not trying to be argumentative. obviously it is commendable that you feel a sense of responsibility, and I feel the same way. I'm sure most people feel that way, up to a point, and that's the real catch --- where is that point?
 
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Honestly you don't have to attend launch.... If my rocket lands and kills someone or damages property it's not my fault there is never a guarantee on where it will land all you can do is make a rocket that will fly and fall straight which again no guarantee... What happens if a motor fails like the ejection charge doesn't detonate and the rocket comes in ballistic hits and destroys a car due to that? Best thing to do if your worried take the vehicle that has a comprehensive insurance plan or life insurance... Again I still ask the question about acts of god who would be responsible for that?
 
No, the club does due diligence to make sure all obvious hazards are minimized (not eliminated) in accordance with the safety code, common sense and to avoid negligence. The club does not guarantee safety. Responsibility lies TOTALLY with the individual who decided to put that rocket on a club pad.

I'm just pointing out what I see as a practical reality of how liability works in this country. The club cannot just say, " it's on the individual, and that's that." This is exactly the kind of muddled liability situation where there could be tons of finger pointing. What if the flier put the rocket on the pad when the winds were 10 mph, and the LCO pressed the button a half hour later during a 25 mph gust? What if the rocket damages a car in the designated parking area, and the flier had no part in setting up pads, flight line and parking area? What if the flier is destitute and the injured party decides to go after the club, because they have the big insurance policy?

My point was not to let the flier off the hook, just to show that the legal and practical reality might be different, regardless of what the club and flier agree to BEFORE the accident.
 
Dont go to a launch if your that worried about it. Dont drive yor mercedes. You know the risk going out there. $hit happens
 
Dont go to a launch if your that worried about it. Dont drive yor mercedes. You know the risk going out there. $hit happens

It is not always a launch members property that is damaged.
 
I'm just pointing out what I see as a practical reality of how liability works in this country. The club cannot just say, " it's on the individual, and that's that."
My point was not to let the flier off the hook, just to show that the legal and practical reality might be different, regardless of what the club and flier agree to BEFORE the accident.

You are correct. In the case of contested liability a court will decide. The club should not accept or share liability in advance of that. The flyer must accept it because he put the rocket on the pad, he can take it off at anytime up to launch if he/she feels an unacceptably high peril has arisen.
 
Dont go to a launch if your that worried about it. Dont drive yor mercedes. You know the risk going out there. $hit happens

You sound like the guy who did my car in. I would like to see if you maintain this attitude if it was your car that was damaged, and sister that was almost hit/hurt/killed. By the way, it was a Subaru. Also, I don't consider "knowing the risk" is the same as "negligent, incompetent flyer". I don't expect the RSO to remove every motor and check if they had tightened their closures. Please post your feelings back when someone destroys your brand new car...
 
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It really does not matter. RSO/LCOs help lower the risk, but it will never be nil. The flier must accept the risk and pay the damages. It is a high risk hobby.
 
Our club displays a Enter at your own risk sign. But if one of my rockets were to do damage I would feel obligated to fix the damage.

As should everyone. The flyer in this instance is a very bad example of the average TRA member, and if it was me who incurred the damage, lawyers would be involved, NOT TRA. And the inaction of the host club is inexcusable.
 
It really does not matter. RSO/LCOs help lower the risk, but it will never be nil. The flier must accept the risk and pay the damages. It is a high risk hobby.

The insurance policy must say exactly what and who is covered. What does it say? Does it say it covers only the club? Or does it say that coverage extends to club members or guests participating in club launches?

The deductible question is sort of a side issue. If the insurance policy does not cover the individual flier, and the damage is the fault of the individual, then the deductible doesn't come into play, because the insurance is not going to cover any part of the claim --- in other words, the deductible is only an issue in covered claims where the insurance is going to pay part of the claim.

If the insurance company is going to pay the claim, then it is the policy holder who must pay the deductible, and presumably that is the club, not the individual flier. Maybe the club will have its own rules about how to share some or all of the cost of the deductible with individual fliers, but ultimately it is the policy holder who pays the deductible. Sort of like if your friend crashes your insured car, the insurance company may pay the claim, but YOU are on the hook for the deductible, NOT your friend --- you might work out something with your friend on the side or have an agreement in advance, but that's not part of the insurance policy.

My suggestion would be to find out specifically who and what the insurance covers, and then disclose that to the fliers. If the policy only covers the club, not individual fliers, disclose that. If the policy covers individual fliers, but the club asks that individual fliers pay all or part of the ducutible, disclose that.
 
Here is an FAQ about NAR insurance coverage. https://www.nar.org/insurancefaq.html#Q1

Individual NAR members have their own individual NAR insurance coverage with their own individual deductible and coverage limits. It covers them for all rocketry activities that conform with the safety code, whether club launches or individual rocketry activities.

Sections have their own section NAR insurance coverage with deductibles and coverage limits. This insurance covers the section if it is sued as a group for damages.

Non-members are not covered by the section insurance, with some exceptions.

Site owners can be added as "additional insureds" on a section policy.
 
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