Slow and low - recommendations

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morlock

morlock

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Fields around where I live are a hassle to go to but there are decent parks within 20 minutes afoot. I am looking for LPR models that would fly low and slow to fit in this context. 200m is a big maximum height and B or C motors would be best. Something with a decent burning time but low (although safe) thrust to weight ratio.

I will buy a Der Red Max for sure but would love to hear about other suggestions of level 1-3 kits or scratch build designs that fit the bill.
 
A big Birtha always works I don't know if you could still find a Starlight Barracuda as that would fit the bill but I haven't produced that kit in a few years.
Mr. Bob
Starlight Dude
Countyline Hobbies
Grovertown, IN
574-540-1123
[email protected]
 
bob jablonski said:
A big Birtha always works I don't know if you could still find a Starlight Barracuda as that would fit the bill but I haven't produced that kit in a few ]
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Have to agree with SS Barracuda! One of my favorites! But can also recommend Semroc's Chrerokee D (comes with a 18mm adaptor)
 
You can look online at a lot of kits and get a rough idea. You can check out the weight to estimate how it will perform. In general, 4 oz will give you a low and slow flight on a C6-3. One of my favorite LPR kits, the (out of production) Geo Sat LV, is over 4 oz and pretty draggy. It has solid low flights on a C6-3. If you're looking for a little excitement, try it on the original, Estes recommended, B6-4.
 
Along with the Big Bertha.... I was going to suggest the Baby Bertha, which I enjoyed...and liked the shape of a great deal...

If you could tolerate a D motor, I have a fond spot in my heart for my Mega Mosquito (which includes a mini mosquito, and happens to be on sale at Estes right now...)
 
I just bought the following

- Der Red Max
- Bull Pup
- Patriot

I'll simulate in Open Rocket and add some weight to the nose cones. Should be close enough.

I also bought some parts to build something similar to the AIM 54 Phoenix. Lots of fin on that and probably heavy enough.

For some reason, I don't find the Berta family attractive. That's just personal preference.

Thanks for your suggestions!
 
Just about any saucer or cone rocket will fit the bill. The Quest Planet Probe is a low and slow flyer. Couple it with a Quest C6 for that tiny bit more of burn time (darker smoke and louder) than it's Estes counterpart.


Jerome :)
 
Saucers definitely fit the bill, but I am thinking of more traditional rockets that are heavy for the motor impulse and/or have high fin drag.
 
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T-Rex said:
Another great scratch build is the Starship Vega.
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Looks interesting. I put the images in my 'Design Inspiration' folder. I'm getting two tubes and nose cones in the mail probably tomorrow, so maybe I'll implement something like it. One of the two is going to be inspired by the AIM-54 Phoenix missile for sure. Just love the look of that thing :)
 
https://https://www.artapplewhite.com/free.html
Art Aapplewhite has some great park flyers that are free cardstock (paper) designs. the delta is a good low and slow, super cheap/easy to make a ton, type rocket. print a bunch off and let folks design their own with crayons markers paint or whatever you have on hand...
 
We fly below 1000 ft all of the time. This is a bit more than 200 m, but here is a partial list of our below 1000 ft rockets:

(All Estes unless indicated otherwise)

D-Region Tomahawk
Der Red Max
Mega Mosquito
Big Daddy
Maxi Alpha III
Aerotech Sumo (G-motors) mid-power
Aerotech G-Force (G-motors) mid-power
Executioner (hard to find now)
Blue Ninja

My kids and I have had lots of flights below 1000 ft and a ton of fun. Best of luck.
 
If a D motor is possible, a Maxi Alpha 3 works well on a D12-3 for slow takeoffs, and relatively low flights. It's also a nice looking rocket, and can fly much higher if and when a larger field is available.

An Estes Patriot on an A8-3 will deliver low, slow flights also.
Nate
 
You mention the Der Red Max... You could build a Big Der Red Max! I made my own in the 70's and still have it. It will give it a little more weight and a really nice flight. Just launched mine for the first time in 30 years a couple of weeks ago.

I have a Big Daddy and a Baby Bertha sitting here ready to go too. I haven't launched them yet, and was looking for low slow flights as well.
 
nute said:
If a D motor is possible, a Maxi Alpha 3 works well on a D12-3 for slow takeoffs, and relatively low flights. It's also a nice looking rocket, and can fly much higher if and when a larger field is available.

An Estes Patriot on an A8-3 will deliver low, slow flights also.
Nate
Click to expand...


The Estes Patriot is one of my favorite LPR birds! Note that though it is probable that an A8-3 will launch a Patriot, it is not suggested (even by Estes). An A8-3 is listed at 3.0 oz. (85g) max lift-off weight for safety reasons! The Patriot is estimated at 2oz but most will weigh in over 2.5oz without the motor.

Besides it wont make it 100ft of the ground and bounce before the top charge pops! Somewhat anticlimactic for a rocket that size.

Jerome
 
I looked more into the thrust curves of Estes C D and E motors and some have nice 3s long pushes. Is it possible to have flights below 500 ft. with these on some rockets? In other words, is it possible to have a secure takeoff with enough speed, a 3s push and still reach low altitudes?

I guess I'll have to do some simulations later but if to know of a good rocket for that, I'd be glad to know.
 
morlock said:
I looked more into the thrust curves of Estes C D and E motors and some have nice 3s long pushes. Is it possible to have flights below 500 ft. with these on some rockets? In other words, is it possible to have a secure takeoff with enough speed, a 3s push and still reach low altitudes?

I guess I'll have to do some simulations later but if to know of a good rocket for that, I'd be glad to know.
Click to expand...

I think it is possible, but it requires very good windless flying conditions and a long sturdy launch rod, combined with a stable and draggy rocket. I've seen Mega Mosquitos flown on long-burning E9 motors that I don't think went over 500 feet.

You mentioned not really liking the Berthas, and I'm not a huge fan of Mosquitos or Der Red Maxs, but that is the kind of rocket you are looking for --- fat rocket, big fins, probably with the fins protruding behind the aft end of the BT.

I have a Maxi Alpha 3 that I built a 14" payload section for, and it flies to about 500 feet on E12 or E9 motors. It's very stable, but is more prone to weather cocking on the E9 than it is on the E12. I only fly that configuration in still air on a 6' rod. It makes for a cool low and slow flight. But if it does weathercock, you've got 3 seconds of burn left to send it down range for a crash!
 
morlock said:
Sure, the original estes saturn v sells for 1200$ on ebay. Makes it a perfect park rocket. :p
Click to expand...

You don't have to go with an original. They've rereleased the kits several times. I got my OOP kit in November for $45 --- it's only a few years old.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
I think it is possible, but it requires very good windless flying conditions and a long sturdy launch rod, combined with a stable and draggy rocket. I've seen Mega Mosquitos flown on long-burning E9 motors that I don't think went over 500 feet.

You mentioned not really liking the Berthas, and I'm not a huge fan of Mosquitos or Der Red Maxs, but that is the kind of rocket you are looking for --- fat rocket, big fins, probably with the fins protruding behind the aft end of the BT.

I have a Maxi Alpha 3 that I built a 14" payload section for, and it flies to about 500 feet on E12 or E9 motors. It's very stable, but is more prone to weather cocking on the E9 than it is on the E12. I only fly that configuration in still air on a 6' rod. It makes for a cool low and slow flight. But if it does weathercock, you've got 3 seconds of burn left to send it down range for a crash!
Click to expand...

I have ordered a Der Red Max, as I gathered that was indeed one of the good options for low and slow: big draggy fins and large BT to length ratio. I guess I will keep it pretty stock, appart from being generous on the fillets and paint and maybe a little nosecone weight. Then maybe I'll buy a second one and try to make it yet heavier and draggier and, as you suggest, keeping it for low wind speed situations.

I'll have to invest in a bigger launch rod (or kit) sometime anyway :)
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
You don't have to go with an original. They've rereleased the kits several times. I got my OOP kit in November for $45 --- it's only a few years old.
Click to expand...

I have made another eBay search since and indeed found some around 50$, although the auctions were still far from the close date. I'll keep an eye out for this and the Estes SR-71 :)
 
Here are two suggestions from my low and slow fleet that I don't believe have been mentioned. A Super Big Bertha (EST 2165) and a Fat Boy (EST 1273). All you need to clone these are a PNC-80B nose cone and some BT80 tube. A stock Super Big Bertha has a 24mm MMT. I went with a 29mm MMT but I primarily fly it on a smaller field with 24/40 reloads. I consistently get 500-600 feet on an E18-4W (using Altimeter 2 for altitude). A friend of mine took a video of this rocket on an E18-4W that you can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENIeU3NzYk A stock Fat Boy is an 18mm MMT. I went with 24mm but it fly great with an adapter on C6-3's.

I recently built a Super Neon XL but haven't had a chance to fly it. It is a pretty good sized rocket that is designed to fly on D and E motors. I have seen a couple of these fly at launches and they were low and slow with their 6 BT60 tube fins. Estes has had these deeply discounted on some of their past sales but it would also be an easy clone. It uses the same nose cone as the Der Red Max.
 
Drag is good to keep it slow, but for slow lift-off you need low thrust-to-weight ratio. Just not too low! Also the motor shouldn't have too much thrust peak, although for long burn you need some. Estes Tomahawk at 9 oz. is pretty dramatic on E9s (I have the original 3/16" lugs on it, so it also always gets only a 3' rod).

I built a cone-fin rocket, sort of a cross between a saucer and a normal rocket, 5.5" dia. cone fin, 5.2 oz. total. It gets just over 400' on an E9, although not real slow off the pad. The cool parts are the way the smoke billows around the back end, and every bump and dip in the motor's thrust curve can be seen in flight. It gets only about 2 seconds from burnout to apogee, but terminal velocity is only about 60 fps. Note the attached file shows F15 motor, which has been flown but not be repeated on this rocket, as the ejection charges are too much.

View attachment skyscraper0.ork
 
sl98 said:
Here are two suggestions from my low and slow fleet that I don't believe have been mentioned. A Super Big Bertha (EST 2165) and a Fat Boy (EST 1273). All you need to clone these are a PNC-80B nose cone and some BT80 tube. A stock Super Big Bertha has a 24mm MMT. I went with a 29mm MMT but I primarily fly it on a smaller field with 24/40 reloads. I consistently get 500-600 feet on an E18-4W (using Altimeter 2 for altitude). A friend of mine took a video of this rocket on an E18-4W that you can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENIeU3NzYk A stock Fat Boy is an 18mm MMT. I went with 24mm but it fly great with an adapter on C6-3's.

I recently built a Super Neon XL but haven't had a chance to fly it. It is a pretty good sized rocket that is designed to fly on D and E motors. I have seen a couple of these fly at launches and they were low and slow with their 6 BT60 tube fins. Estes has had these deeply discounted on some of their past sales but it would also be an easy clone. It uses the same nose cone as the Der Red Max.
Click to expand...

Nice flight :) How many yards of chord is there on that Super Big Bertha ?

I like the idea of getting inspiration from some models and build my own. I have just bought 2 BT-60 tubes and nose cones (plus 3 kits :)) and will try to do do an AIM-54 clone and something else with a lot of fin surface but not over stable (big fins in the middle and small ones at the back) and some good weight (eg design: https://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177857&stc=1&d=1405563369). If this goes well, I guess the logical step is to go bigger :) I'd like to do a 2.2 inch AIM-54, but I'll need to find a nice field sometime, since I am launching from a smallish park in the city (about 150m by side).

View attachment scratch_russian_missile.ork
 
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