Accelerometer vs. Barometer Altitudes

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MountainRocketeer

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My Raven fairly consistently reports significantly higher altitude from the accelerometer than from the barometer. The last five flights are as follows:

Motor.....Accelerometer.....Barometer
H151.....2685.....2271
H170.....2677.....2458
H159.....3996.....3600
H195.....3401.....3048
I205.....5110.....4562

Any thoughts? Is this amount of variation typical? Any keys to identifying the more accurate number?
 
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My Raven fairly consistently reports significantly higher altitude from the accelerometer than from the barometer. The last five flights are as follows:

Motor.....Accelerometer.....Barometer
H151.....2685.....2271
H170.....2677.....2458
H159.....2996.....3600
H195.....3401.....3048
I205.....5110.....4562

Any thoughts? Is this amount of variation typical? Any keys to identifying the more accurate number?

Calibrate the accel. But you might have one where the microcontroller has a bit of nonlinearity, unfortunately.
 
Any thoughts? Is this amount of variation typical? Any keys to identifying the more accurate number?

The barometric altitude is more likely to be closer to the truth. It has the advantage of measuring something that is proportional to altitude. The biggest source of error is likely to be divergence of the local air column from the standard atmosphere model.

The accelerometer measures acceleration which must be integrated twice to get altitude. This amplifies any errors in the accelerometer a lot. A constant error will grow proportional to time squared.

Aside from the slope and offset errors which can be controlled to some extent there is the additional problem that the rockets long axis is rarely aligned with the local vertical so close is the best that you can ever do.
 
Best of both worlds is baro altitude and accelerometer velocity. This pretty much eliminates off-vertical flight from the picture.
 
The barometric altitude is more likely to be closer to the truth. It has the advantage of measuring something that is proportional to altitude. The biggest source of error is likely to be divergence of the local air column from the standard atmosphere model.

For low flights, or for very calm conditions, baro altitude is suprisingly close to what our GPS readings have been. And, if you care to download measured atmospheric data, you can make them even more accurate, but that data isn't available until about a day afterwards.
 
Keith: Don't know if you'll know the answer to this or not, but does the NAR do this when they certify altitude records? They require that a new record has to beat the old one by 2%, it's conceivable that atmospheric variations + variations from one baro altimeter to another may exceed the 2%.

For low flights, or for very calm conditions, baro altitude is suprisingly close to what our GPS readings have been. And, if you care to download measured atmospheric data, you can make them even more accurate, but that data isn't available until about a day afterwards.
 
The accelerometer is likely accurate for what it is measuring, which might be thought of as distance traveled instead of altitude.

A calibration might help, but I do believe that a barometric sensor will probably read closer to the true altitude in the ranges you listed.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
My Raven fairly consistently reports significantly higher altitude from the accelerometer than from the barometer. The last five flights are as follows:

Motor.....Accelerometer.....Barometer
H151.....2685.....2271
H170.....2677.....2458
H159.....3996.....3600
H195.....3401.....3048
I205.....5110.....4562

Any thoughts? Is this amount of variation typical? Any keys to identifying the more accurate number?

As others have stated, commercial accelerometer programs assume vertical trajectories. It may seem counter-intuitive, but off-vertical trajectories result in over-estimated inertial altitudes. Accelerometer programs are really vertical trajectory simulators, in which accelerometer readings are substituted for the sum of thrust and drag accelerations. Off-vertical launches are better represented by modifying two-dimensional, ballistic simulators in the same way. No one does this.

Another reason that barometric altitude is usually lower than inertial altitude is that rockets are commonly launched in hot weather. In hot weather, barometric altitudes are under-estimated, and errors can sometimes be on the order of 10%.

In a way, you are lucky that your inertial altitudes are biased high. Many accelerometers have nonlinear response, which usually biases them low. You can straightforwardly correct for off-vertical effects (even when they are unintended), and also for temperature effects. NLR is a hairier beast by far.
 
My Raven fairly consistently reports significantly higher altitude from the accelerometer than from the barometer. The last five flights are as follows:

Motor.....Accelerometer.....Barometer
H151.....2685.....2271
H170.....2677.....2458
H159.....3996.....3600
H195.....3401.....3048
I205.....5110.....4562

Any thoughts? Is this amount of variation typical? Any keys to identifying the more accurate number?

The baro and accel sensors are complimentary, and each is more accurate than the other in different parts of the flight. At apogee, the baro sensor is far more accurate than the accel-based altitude. The rocket has been coasting quietly along, going slower and slower, which provides very good conditions for accurate baro measurements.

Small errors in the accel calibration or linearity accumulate over the duration of the flight, and so the accel-based altitude accuracy tends to degrade with time of flight. Others have mentioned that the flight path can affect the results, since the Raven can't tell which way the rocket is pointing, so it assumes that the gravity measured when it was resting on the pad is acting against the measured acceleration throughout the flight. This can lead to significant errors when the rocket is far from vertical. The accelerometer in the Raven is also only moderately accurate to begin with, since it's an analog sensor that is used to make measurements well beyond the +/- 1G range used for calibration.

However, during the boost phase of a typical rocket flight, the accel-based altitude can be more accurate than the baro-based altitude. The baro sensor measurements are affected by any transients changes to the av-bay pressure, which can be common during boost, particularly in high-G flights, when the parachute shifts backwards. In a high-G flight, even a well-sealed av-bay can have significant pressure transients due to the mass of the air in the bay causing increased pressure at the bottom. In transonic and supersonic flights, there can be pressure transients when the shock wave moves over the vent port. The accel is immune to those error sources. One thing that can be fun to look at is to zoom in on the initial rocket motion and measure how long the rail or tower was. You can do this by displaying the accel-based altitude along with the lateral acceleration, and look for the accel-based altitude at which the last impact that shows up in the lateral accel data.

The accel data is also useful for judging the strength of deployment charges. Zoom in to the data around a deployment, and you can tell whether or not there was a big jerk when the rocket pieces take out the slack in the recovery harness. Let's say the rocket has a typical configuration with the main chute above the av-bay, and the first separation charge below the av-bay. The apogee charge will show up as a big positive impulse, and the shock cord jerk will show up as a negative. You can even measure the average deployment speed by dividing the time between the +and - impulses by the length of the shock cord. If the charge is wimpy, you'll know it because there isn't any clear negative impulse. You can still measure the initial velocity in that case by looking at the initial change in velocity when the deployment charge goes off, and adjust according to the portion of the rocket mass holding the altimeter compared to the mass of the ejected part.

In summary, the Raven's accelerometers can provide lots of interesting or useful information, but for the apogee altitude, stick to the baro sensor.
 
OK, so now you understand why accelerometer altitudes are less accurate than barometric ones (at least at apogee). In general, you want to measure quantities in the most direct way possible and particularly to avoid cumulative errors (integration). You may enjoy my flight physics article for more background on forces affecting flight.

For rocket electronics, baro sensors are used to measure ambient air pressure, which which correlates (in a complex way) with altitude. GPS sensors also provide altitude, but not as accurately. In fact, barometric sensors are so common for this purpose, that they're nearly synonymous with "altimeter", although there are other techniques for measuring altitude.
 
Agree with all of the comments thus far but I think we over dissing the accelerometers. Intregrated acceleration data can be fairly accurate (accurate enough for our hobby missions) if care is taken in component selection, calibration strategy, maybe a little luck and off course a reasonable vertical flight.

Below is a screenshot of one of my flights Friday at URRF2 (great launch). The red line is the baro altitude, the blue is the accelerometer derived altitude. I have to admit usually it is not that close but it is usually reasonably close.

accel_vs_baro.jpg
 
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At best, an accelerometer will provide an accurate measure of the distance traveled (if all movement is on-axis). If they were accepted for altitude records I suspect the optimal strategy would be to launch at something under 45° for the longest trajectory.

We're not dissing accelerometers; they are invaluable for lift-off, burnout and apogee detection.
 
Keith: Don't know if you'll know the answer to this or not, but does the NAR do this when they certify altitude records? They require that a new record has to beat the old one by 2%, it's conceivable that atmospheric variations + variations from one baro altimeter to another may exceed the 2%.

NAR and (most) TRA just use the altimeter data and trusts whatever it says. Of course, high TRA records now require GPS, which is pretty sensible.
 
NAR and (most) TRA just use the altimeter data and trusts whatever it says. Of course, high TRA records now require GPS, which is pretty sensible.
Correct. 30 KFT is the altitude where the maximum errors in the GPS fix become lower than the maximum errors allowed in an FAA calibrated altimeter.

Bob
 
At best, an accelerometer will provide an accurate measure of the distance traveled (if all movement is on-axis). If they were accepted for altitude records I suspect the optimal strategy would be to launch at something under 45° for the longest trajectory.

Is the optimal strategy for barometric based altitude attempts to create an airframe which will create a venturi effect depressurizing the altimeter bay during flight?

I will construct my D powered 5000' rocket soon.
 
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