HPR for sale, but not HPR for certification?

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Sorry, but I think it does.

The Level 1 certification requires you to do some things to become Level 1 certified. Once you do that, you are able to do other things (like use the higher-thrust G motors.) Just because being certified allows you do do other things, it doesn't mean that those other things should be a part of the certification process. Just as a driver's license may be required to enter a night club doesn't mean that entering a night club should have anything to do with getting a driver's license.

Proof of age and the ability to safely drive a car (entirely in theory from what I see on the road daily) are not related.

The Level 1 certification process is not designed to show that you can fly a higher-thrust G motor or a sparky F motor. But, having Level 1 certification is assumed to be a good indicator that you would know how to safely use those motors.

The intent of the certification process is safety. If one needs L1 cert to safely fly a high-thrust G, then one should be able to cert with a high-thrust G. Once again, I really don't care that much about this, it's just logic and that logical conflict was why I was asked the question in the first place. I don't give answers like some - "Because that's the rule."

As I've said, I think this weird situation exists because the total impulse dividing lines for cert levels were established long before the appearance of high-thrust Gs and the subsequent CPSC L1 requirement to use them. High thrust Gs are therefore left in limbo and no-one wants to lower the total impulse cert level to a different letter even though the difference between the lowest total impulse CSI H and the highest impulse CSI G is a whopping 3 N-s. It's simply simpler and more convenient to leave things as they are.

There are other things having a Level 1 cert lets you do that you can do to obtain your certification. You can't certify on a cluster of four G motors, but you can fly them under your Level 1 cert later. With a Level 1 certification, you can fly a high-power rocket that someone else built, but you must build the rocket that you use for certification.

And, once again, that cluster ban is in the interest of safety. I wouldn't want to be near an L1 cert attempt using composite clusters, either.
 
When I joined Tripoli in 1988, the certification process was called 'Confirmation'. All you had to do was fly a rocket on *any* motor H or above successfully. Then you could buy *any* motor, including N's. High thrust G motors did exist then (such as Aerotech G125 and G300). You had to be a Tripoli member to purchase them as they were not model rocket motors but you did *not* need to be confirmed. I don't know exactly when the L1 certified requirement was imposed (after 1995 when the multi level certs was implemented).
 
Sorry, Winston, you want room 12A just along the corridor.

-- Roger
 
I was told that I couldn't fly certain Gs and Fs so I went from D12-3 being the largest I've ever flown to massive research and to L1 cert on an H144... Now I can do high thrust Gs and a sparky F.
I question these things on a daily basis I question everything on a daily basis but in the words of John Cougar Mellamcamp "I fight authority authority always wins."
 
As others have said, the rocket motors are regulated by a number of different agencies, with FAA, DoT, and CPSC having the force of law nationwide and NFPA trying to knit those all together while being more comprehensive.

Having been involved in NFPA for several iterations, I find it best to focus on the definition of model rocket motors -- the historical core of the hobby -- as motors that are available to the general public, without a lot of flight restrictions or onerous requirements. Everything that isn't a model rocket motor has additional restrictions.

HPR motors are bigger motors; HPR certification is to show the flyer has at least some knowledge of what's required to successfully fly those bigger motors. With that certification comes the ability to fly all the other restricted motors, not so much because of the demonstrated skill in using them, but because NFPA requires a bunch of other things to be in place which are not unreasonable in HPR--fire extinguishers, distance limits, etc.

So, while flying a sparky or hybrid or high thrust F motor doesn't necessarily demonstrate HPR skills, having demonstrated HPR skills does provide some assurance that the flyer knows what it takes to fly those sparky or hybrid or high thrust motors safely.
 
As others have said, the rocket motors are regulated by a number of different agencies, with FAA, DoT, and CPSC having the force of law nationwide and NFPA trying to knit those all together while being more comprehensive.

Having been involved in NFPA for several iterations, I find it best to focus on the definition of model rocket motors -- the historical core of the hobby -- as motors that are available to the general public, without a lot of flight restrictions or onerous requirements. Everything that isn't a model rocket motor has additional restrictions.

HPR motors are bigger motors; HPR certification is to show the flyer has at least some knowledge of what's required to successfully fly those bigger motors. With that certification comes the ability to fly all the other restricted motors, not so much because of the demonstrated skill in using them, but because NFPA requires a bunch of other things to be in place which are not unreasonable in HPR--fire extinguishers, distance limits, etc.

So, while flying a sparky or hybrid or high thrust F motor doesn't necessarily demonstrate HPR skills, having demonstrated HPR skills does provide some assurance that the flyer knows what it takes to fly those sparky or hybrid or high thrust motors safely.

There have existed MPR hybrids that didn't need certification, I think.
 
Certifying HPR on a high-thrust motor is a safety issue. The person is likely to be inexperienced in structural strength required to handle such motors.

Why the regulations worked out this way is unknown, but it's a good thing for the hobby.

I had a guy on my RSO duty who wanted to certify on H-Vmax. Last thing I need is for launch lug or fins to break off at lunch... Go back to AMW trailer and pick something more appropriate.



-Alex
 
Certifying HPR on a high-thrust motor is a safety issue. The person is likely to be inexperienced in structural strength required to handle such motors.

Why the regulations worked out this way is unknown, but it's a good thing for the hobby.

I had a guy on my RSO duty who wanted to certify on H-Vmax. Last thing I need is for launch lug or fins to break off at lunch... Go back to AMW trailer and pick something more appropriate.



-Alex

Per the RSO "guidlines" your supposed to take everything into account such as the flyer and the rocket. But, sounds like you had no basis for rejecting the flight.
 
Certifying HPR on a high-thrust motor is a safety issue. The person is likely to be inexperienced in structural strength required to handle such motors.

Why the regulations worked out this way is unknown, but it's a good thing for the hobby.

I had a guy on my RSO duty who wanted to certify on H-Vmax. Last thing I need is for launch lug or fins to break off at lunch... Go back to AMW trailer and pick something more appropriate.



-Alex

In that situation I have seen RSO's do a little structural testing on rockets up for inspection.
 
In that situation I have seen RSO's do a little structural testing on rockets up for inspection.

The only valid structural testing would be destructive to the rocket. It's best to implore methods to ascertain the history of the flyer and their construction technique(their success rates at similar -leading up to preparation), and the methods they used on the rocket. Then at that time you can make a judgement on exactly "what" is not up to snuff, workmanship, adhesive, improper material, or a combination....

There are ways to reject a flight. a cart-Blanche, the rocket will shred, and "i have no exact reason why I postulate such outcome." Is a great disservice to the flyer, and well; the hobby as a whole. First, it perpetuates a nerd-on-highorse "i have absolute power", attitude that maybe doesn't drive people away, but limits their willingness to participate at more expense to their own time and effort. (ie. be an rso in the future). It's easier to feel positive and corroborative when the atmosphere allows decisions at the rso table to be meet upon mutual discussion and agreement. ** in edit, as the rocket gets bigger, it's harder and harder to verify the "chance of success" based on the rocket and motor alone....*****

One could just as easily say,, that motor from cti has a high cato rate, you cant fly it... (even though its a certified motor...with no association recalls). Its just a matter of opinion, and D*(^ with a position to say something about it.
 
Per the RSO "guidlines" your supposed to take everything into account such as the flyer and the rocket. But, sounds like you had no basis for rejecting the flight.

Reject? Nah... RSO job is to identify and explain safety issues, and flyers are usually the first ones to want a safe flight, and willing to correct what RSO sees as potentially unsafe.

But yes, if someone's stubborn, insists on Vmax for cert flight, then he/she better have indestructible-looking rocket, all sims in hand, answer all questions on techniques and materials, otherwise it fails HPR certification checklist #10 and won't certify.
 
The only valid structural testing would be destructive to the rocket.

Better it be destroyed on the ground than with a flaming rocket motor flipping around.

I've seen launch lugs fall off by swinging the rocket around a little.
 
Better it be destroyed on the ground than with a flaming rocket motor flipping around.

I've seen launch lugs fall off by swinging the rocket around a little.

heh.. were talking high thrust... static stable in 5 inches or less/// :grin: launch lugs.... pssft
 
Reject? Nah... RSO job is to identify and explain safety issues, and flyers are usually the first ones to want a safe flight, and willing to correct what RSO sees as potentially unsafe.

But yes, if someone's stubborn, insists on Vmax for cert flight, then he/she better have indestructible-looking rocket, all sims in hand, answer all questions on techniques and materials, otherwise it fails HPR certification checklist #10 and won't certify.

perhaps i mis-took the narative ... sounded like you had the tone what he was doing was "inapropriate", rather than a maybe little misplaced gusto, and discussion that resulted in collaboration to change the motor.
 
Now a question for you who are saying you should not cert on a vmax. When I turn 18, I will have plenty HPR flights under my belt. If not me, take someone like Alex Laraway. Both of us already have flown multiple high power motors. We are also aware of the construction aspect of high power motors (he much more than I).



I guess my question is, do you look at past HPR experience for the certification flight?
 
Winston

There are US government regulations and there are hobby organization rules. They are not the same.

The US Federal Regulations concerning rocketry come from the FAA (Air Space Regulation), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (Explosive Use, Procession and Control), DOT (shipping of motors in commerce), United States Postal System (mailing of small motors by parcel post), and Consumer Products Safety Commission (sales, use and possession of hazardous materials by consumers.)

The FAA in PART 101 defines a Class 1 rocket as not exceeding 1500 grams and not containing motor than 125 grams of propellant. Rockets of this size are in general not regulated unless there is a total airspace use ban. Example 30 mile exclusion for a presidential or vip visit. To launch larger rocket you need formal written to launch a rocket aka a waiver. The FAA does not require user certification. but does require you to obtain permission of the land owner (who frequently requires insurance to use his property)

BATFE defines unregulated BP motors may contain no more than 62.5 grams of propellant. Larger BP motors need a federal license. Federal licenses are require to purchase, possess or use BP, BP substitutes, and smokeless powers in most non-shooting applications. Licenses are not given to minors.

DOT considers all rocket motors as explosives and requires a hazmat fee for shipping and required that all shippers be trained to ship hazmat.

The USPS allows small motors to be mailed by ground parcel post with their written permission under their rules and procedures without any extra fees.

The CPSC sets the age for purchase, use and procession of rocket motors. Minors may only launch single use motors with not more than 62.5 grams of propellant with an average thrust not exceeding 80 N and with a total impulse not exceeding 80 Ns (F). Minors may not purchase reloadable motors.

States and local governments have further restrictions on rocketry activity.

NAR and TRA are hobby rocketry organizations that make it easier for the average person to launch rockets because they offer training and insurance for users. The High Power certification program is the reason why so many nontechnical folks can fly high power. They also have internal organizations accepted by the CPSC and NFPA that certifies commercial rocket motors safe to use. The hobby organization have policies and member requirements to insurance compliance to the above rules which enables the organization to minimize the red tape that an individual will encounter when they want launch a rocket. Our high power hobby is small, around 5000 participants, and to insure that someone doesn't do anything to jeopardize our ability to launch high power, most motor vendors follow organizational, NFPA and governmental requirements and will not sell motors to non-certified hobbyists.

Most launches would not happened without NAR/TRA insurance. The National Fire Prevention Agency is an independent organization that recommends policy for minimizing risk in inherently dangerous activities. Adherence to their recommendations enables NAR/TRA to get high limit insurance policies that empowers their member to secure launch site from civil and private sources. The launch ops simplify the granting of waivers and eliminate each individual person from securing an individual waiver.

It really doesn't matter if you think it's logical or not. The government makes the rules and the hobby organizations make it as painless as possible for the hobbyist to comply with them with little effort.

If you don't like the rules, just go and launch on your own. In theory there's nothing preventing you from doing on your own without insurance, but you will find there a lot of bumps in the road for you when you try to do it legally on your own.

Bob
 
I had a guy on my RSO duty who wanted to certify on H-Vmax. Last thing I need is for launch lug or fins to break off at lunch... Go back to AMW trailer and pick something more appropriate.

-Alex

............ I don't want to be within 200 feet of a g250 anyway.......


I can't believe the thing I read in this tread

1- I launched once a G-Force with a H410 Vmax without a single problem
2- 200 feet for a G motor , seriously ????? are you still holding your mom hand when you cross the street ?
 
Now a question for you who are saying you should not cert on a vmax. When I turn 18, I will have plenty HPR flights under my belt. If not me, take someone like Alex Laraway. Both of us already have flown multiple high power motors. We are also aware of the construction aspect of high power motors (he much more than I).



I guess my question is, do you look at past HPR experience for the certification flight?

Only at major launches have I seen a person actualy go and RSO a rocket that was to be used for a certification attempt. Under the old rules of TRA, a prefect had to sign off on it. So really they did all the preflight RSO checks. Most small club launches are not as formal, so a third party probably wont interject about motor combinations.

So chances are most of the time, if you have been around the prefect knows you and you know the prefect, so ... you are probably best suited to answer that.

Now that taps can sign off on tra cert flights, you probably get a lot more RSO involvement. Now that I think about it my wife level 2 flight was rso'd by non-prefect or tap....

This ns average thrust arguement reminds me... she certifed L2 16ns short of an M, they just just let her fly m's.. similar to HP g motors...
 
I can't believe the thing I read in this tread

1- I launched once a G-Force with a H410 Vmax without a single problem
2- 200 feet for a G motor , seriously ????? are you still holding your mom hand when you cross the street ?

dude, I gave you the link earlier..https://www.tripoli.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=RhLaGq2C+HY=&tabid=326 . 200 feet is the minimum distance allowed by any "non-nfpa" compliant motor on research day. At commercial launch events its 100 feet, but you cant fly research motors... most people in my region make our own motors or a large faction of us do. So, all the launches are held under research code. Can you guys make your own APCP motors, my mom holds my hand when i do... errr.. comes out and watches me and has coffee. Model rockets are usually set at 50 for low power motors....
 
Winston

There are US government regulations and there are hobby organization rules. They are not the same.

The US Federal Regulations concerning rocketry come from the FAA (Air Space Regulation), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (Explosive Use, Procession and Control), DOT (shipping of motors in commerce), United States Postal System (mailing of small motors by parcel post), and Consumer Products Safety Commission (sales, use and possession of hazardous materials by consumers.)

The FAA in PART 101 defines a Class 1 rocket as not exceeding 1500 grams and not containing motor than 125 grams of propellant. Rockets of this size are in general not regulated unless there is a total airspace use ban. Example 30 mile exclusion for a presidential or vip visit. To launch larger rocket you need formal written to launch a rocket aka a waiver. The FAA does not require user certification. but does require you to obtain permission of the land owner (who frequently requires insurance to use his property)

BATFE defines unregulated BP motors may contain no more than 62.5 grams of propellant. Larger BP motors need a federal license. Federal licenses are require to purchase, possess or use BP, BP substitutes, and smokeless powers in most non-shooting applications. Licenses are not given to minors.

DOT considers all rocket motors as explosives and requires a hazmat fee for shipping and required that all shippers be trained to ship hazmat.

The USPS allows small motors to be mailed by ground parcel post with their written permission under their rules and procedures without any extra fees.

The CPSC sets the age for purchase, use and procession of rocket motors. Minors may only launch single use motors with not more than 62.5 grams of propellant with an average thrust not exceeding 80 N and with a total impulse not exceeding 80 Ns (F). Minors may not purchase reloadable motors.

States and local governments have further restrictions on rocketry activity.

NAR and TRA are hobby rocketry organizations that make it easier for the average person to launch rockets because they offer training and insurance for users. The High Power certification program is the reason why so many nontechnical folks can fly high power. They also have internal organizations accepted by the CPSC and NFPA that certifies commercial rocket motors safe to use. The hobby organization have policies and member requirements to insurance compliance to the above rules which enables the organization to minimize the red tape that an individual will encounter when they want launch a rocket. Our high power hobby is small, around 5000 participants, and to insure that someone doesn't do anything to jeopardize our ability to launch high power, most motor vendors follow organizational, NFPA and governmental requirements and will not sell motors to non-certified hobbyists.

Most launches would not happened without NAR/TRA insurance. The National Fire Prevention Agency is an independent organization that recommends policy for minimizing risk in inherently dangerous activities. Adherence to their recommendations enables NAR/TRA to get high limit insurance policies that empowers their member to secure launch site from civil and private sources. The launch ops simplify the granting of waivers and eliminate each individual person from securing an individual waiver.

It really doesn't matter if you think it's logical or not. The government makes the rules and the hobby organizations make it as painless as possible for the hobbyist to comply with them with little effort.

If you don't like the rules, just go and launch on your own. In theory there's nothing preventing you from doing on your own without insurance, but you will find there a lot of bumps in the road for you when you try to do it legally on your own.

Bob

People should also remember when speaking out against lobbying and lobbyist the NAR and Tripoli act as our lobbyist.... Some of these rules are ridiculous and not about safety but about revenue generation but unfortunately they are there and if Federal or state regulations they are enforceable by the agencies in said jurisdiction... Not starting a political argument it's just how it is... I also know someone will say something but before you do I said some of the regs and laws not all as the ones set in place by the private organizations like NAR are for safety as a board of people that actually do rocketry and not some bureaucrat...
 
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