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  1. #31
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    The video of these three flights:

    Also a demonstration of why folks don't usually put video cameras on flying rocket saucers....
    .

    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  2. #32
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    14th September 2012
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    You da man, Boris! Cluster master.

    Marcus Harmon
    TRA# 8736
    Level 2

  3. #33
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    4th July 2014
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    Awesome! Does the spinning on the two large saucers help generate lift with the turbine blades?

    I think I might have to build a big flying saucer now... Low and slow cluster rockets are awesome.

  4. #34
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    26th April 2010
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    Seattle area, WA
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    Awesome flights. Hellboy is incredible!
    John

    NAR 92621
    TRA 17131
    Level 2

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCrocketfan View Post
    Awesome! Does the spinning on the two large saucers help generate lift with the turbine blades?

    I think I might have to build a big flying saucer now... Low and slow cluster rockets are awesome.
    Yes the spin on the saucers does generate some lift.

    The Turbine Rocket Saucer is about 20" in diameter and spins at up to 2000 RPM.
    The larger Spinning Saucer of the Apocalypse is 3ft in diameter and spins at about 1000 RPM peak.

    Both designs are original, and both have detailed build and flight threads on here on TRS. Also info on the website in my signature.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  6. #36
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    18th January 2009
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    WI
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    Quote Originally Posted by delta22 View Post
    At the CMASS Amesbury 8/9/14 launch, the British Electric Thunderbird lifted off on its standard cluster:
    1x CTI F30-6
    6x Estes E9-6
    4x Estes D11-P
    for a nice long slow liftoff and good recovery.

    Gotta love those longer burning motors....
    Boris, this looks really nice! With this combo, what was your wiring configuration? Any series wiring? What types of motor starters? I hope to do a 6xD12 + central CTI 24mm soon...

    Also, what's been your experience clustering E9 motors? I seem to have many more E9 failures than D12.
    Paul
    NAR #87246 L2 - Section #558 - www.wooshrocketry.org
    "If we weren't all crazy, we would go insane" - Jimmy Buffett

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpower View Post
    Boris, this looks really nice! With this combo, what was your wiring configuration? Any series wiring? What types of motor starters? I hope to do a 6xD12 + central CTI 24mm soon...

    Also, what's been your experience clustering E9 motors? I seem to have many more E9 failures than D12.
    I like to use Rocketflite's MF wires and their CF pyrogen to fire all motors up to 29mm. Also for ejection charges.

    For this and many of my clusters, I go with series strings of 2 igniters, and combine these in parallel as needed.
    Fired by my cluster box: http://bpasa.com/Cluster-box.htm

    I have not seen a difference between E9, D12 or D11 for clusters. E12's did more than their share of CATOs recently.
    Must be a run of bad luck with your E9's.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  8. #38
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    21st January 2009
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    Horizon Air Meet 9/6/14 and 9/7/14

    RC Airshow at Sanford Seacoast Regional Airport in Sanford, Maine.

    HP Rocket demo flights Organized and Sponsored by Robert and Gloria at AMW Pro-X

    In addition AMW Pro-X also set up a bunch of crayon rockets and provided over 1000 Estes B engines for kids to fly!
    Thank you very much.
    Talk about paying forward!

    The "Fly a rocket for free" event was very popular and was continuously launching throughout the event.
    Thanks to the good folks of CMASS and MMMSC for help at these events.

    Pics of some very cool, high-end RC prop and jet planes.
    Announcer described several of the jets as $15K and 200mph machines.
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    Last edited by delta22; 4th October 2014 at 07:25 PM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  9. #39
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    Horizon Air Meet
    Demo Rocket flights, Saturday, 9/6/14


    At about 2pm Saturday, we quickly set up 3 HP pads and rockets.
    54mm Pro-X Skids were the HP motors for the day.

    The "Saucer of DOOM", my 18" Applewhite saucer, went up on the new J145 Skid longburn (54mm 2grain) for a cool flight - with a nearly 5 second burn.

    Mike G's very nice Bullpup soared on a K454 Skid (54mm 4grain) for a great flight - pictures below.

    Unfortunately there was an electrical problem at the pad, and very tight timing of events at the Air Meet prevented my Midnight Express from flying Saturday. The good news is that it was already prepped for Sunday's flight...
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  10. #40
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    Horizon Air Meet
    Demo Rocket flights, Sunday, 9/7/14


    Sunday, we were able to set up pads and rockets ahead of time.
    Also pre-tested pad electronics to make sure all was ready.
    Thank you Bob K. for your help.

    Final prep at flight time was quick - Turn on all electronics and connect igniters.
    Again, 54mm Pro-X Skids were the HP motors for the day.

    The "Saucer of DOOM" went up again on the cool new J145 Skid longburn (54mm 2grain).

    This time the Midnight Express soared on a K675 Skid (54mm 6grain) for a crowd pleasing liftoff - as the final scheduled event for Air Meet 2014.
    Midnight Express was my L3 project.
    3.4x upscale Big Daddy, 10" diameter, 68" tall, 35lbs liftoff weight.
    2x (808 #16) video cams + 2x altimeters (Featherweight Raven + Perfectflite HA45K) onboard.

    The rocket was supposed to deploy a 5ft drogue at apogee, then two 7ft mains at 700ft.
    Instead all three chutes deployed at apogee and the rocket drifted over the thickest, most densely overgrown forest I have ever seen.
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  11. #41
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    I was somewhat creative editing this -> director's cut.

    Last edited by delta22; 29th December 2014 at 04:52 AM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  12. #42
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    Two stunt pilots flew amazing aerobatics (in real planes, not RC) as part of the mid-day "Extravaganza" events just before the demo rocket flights, Saturday and Sunday.

    First up was a biplane which did many cool moves.

    Then came a monoplane flown by Matt Chapman, Full-scale National & World Aerobatics Champion and Top Gun competitor.
    Matt did many amazing maneuvers while describing what he was doing on the by radio patched through the PA.

    At one point he actually flew backwards, which was mind blowing - see video below
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    Last edited by delta22; 17th September 2014 at 05:44 AM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  13. #43
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  14. #44
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    As the event was winding down, I headed into the woods to recover the Midnight Express.

    I started by heading straight in the direction I saw go it down and kept going for 1/2 mile into extremely dense brush and trees.
    Half way back out, when I thought I was near where the rocket must be, climbed a large pine tree with branches like a ladder.
    Managed to get about 60ft up before the trunk got too thin, but was still surrounded by dense leaf cover.

    Walked grids through the woods for 3+ hours searching, mostly in forest so dense that I could not see my own feet.
    I was wearing sneakers and shorts. After an hour both shins were bleeding from dozens of abrasions.

    A couple times I could hear what I assume was a snake slithering off through the bushes, also startled a whitetail deer that sprinted off.
    I was prepared to keep looking until I either got the rocket back or it got dark.

    However, my knees and feet reminded me that I am 54 years old, and after 3 hours of plowing through very rough terrain, told me that I have 1/2 hour to get on flat ground or be in serious pain.
    So I returned without finding my rocket.

    Thanks to Robert D. for 2x bottles of Gatorade + bottle of water + a bottle of beer (strictly for its nutritional and muscle-relaxant properties, of course).
    All consumed within 10 minutes. Now my mouth was no longer dry and hands stopped shaking.

    Then packed up and drove 3 hours home.
    And thought about how painfully obvious it now was that I should have put a tracker in the rocket.....

    Filling up with gas on the way home, a lady in a minivan seemed to find my appearance quite amusing. Then I looked down at myself and saw wet shoes and socks, bleeding shins, with mud and pine sap stains covering the rest of me. I looked like a kid who played hard in the woods all day...

    When I finally got home I could barely walk, and had to ask my teenage son to help me unload the car.

    ...I will use a rocket tracker in the future....
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    Last edited by delta22; 17th September 2014 at 06:11 AM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  15. #45
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    Had to work the next 5 days, Monday through Friday.

    Over the course of the following week, looked closely at the pictures and video I had taken from the ground, plus wind direction and speed data from the time of the launch.
    This helped tighten up the target area and convinced me to go back and search more Saturday, 9/13/14.

    Also called the Sanford airport manager, a professional and pleasant sounding young lady, who agreed to put up a couple "Lost Rocket" flyers where pilots might see them.
    Made up the flyer but did not mail it pending 9/13 search results.

    My wife offered to come with me, and I said "Honey, those woods are really rough" whereupon she looked at me like I was crazy and stated that she would go to a large fabric store in Sanford while I looked for the rocket....
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  16. #46
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    Saturday, 9/13/14
    Completed the 3 hour drive and arrived Sanford, ME just before noon.
    This time I was better dressed, wearing Woverine boots and denim jeans, plowing through the dense brush was tiring, but no longer painful.
    Headed into the woods once again using my smartphone/Google maps for GPS navigation.

    After walking search grids for 3.5 hours, finally found the rocket.
    It was about 2000ft from launch area, about 500ft into the woods, in an extremely dense area of trees and bushes.
    I couldn't see it from 50ft away and only spotted it because the Perfectflite HA45K altimeter was still beeping out the altitude 6 days later!
    Had walked within 100-200ft of that spot repeatedly when I was searching before, but never saw the rocket.

    It took me another 2 hours to carry the 32lb (recovery weight) rocket a mile out of the woods. Stayed well into the woods and away from the airport at all times to avoid causing any security concerns. The last 500ft was the worst, continuous dense bushes and trees and mud all the way. It took me an hour to force the rocket and myself through the brush. Several times I was tripped by bushes and fell onto bushes, then I would rotate the rocket end-over-end to use its weight to crush down the brush, and climb forward several more feet.

    By the time I finally got out of the woods 5.5hrs later, could barely move my arms and legs.
    My wife laughed when she saw me covered in mud and plant debris from head to toe.

    Changed all my clothes in the car. Then we stopped in Kittery, ME on the way back to shop at the Kittery Trading Post and eat some very sweet twin lobsters at the Weathervane.

    These pics were taken 25ft from the rocket and large red chutes, and they can barely be seen at all.

    ...I will use a rocket tracker in the future....
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    Last edited by delta22; 17th September 2014 at 06:23 AM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  17. #47
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    Was very fortunate that there was no rain for the 6 days the rocket was in the woods.
    Only started a light rain as I was carrying the rocket back, just enough to cool me down.

    Yes - will definitely use trackers more often going forward.
    Had a long conversation with myself about that walking for hours in the woods

    The rocket and electronics (2x 808 vid cams, 2x altimeters) were all in good shape.

    Some scratches in rocket paint, one small fixable tear in smaller chute, altimeter bays need minor repair.
    Will replace most screws and quick links due to slight corrosion.

    Midnight Express will definitely fly again.
    With a tracker onboard...

    Thanks to Robert and Gloria at AMW Pro-X for sponsoring this event.
    Thanks to Jason for offering to help with the search.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  18. #48
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    6th March 2010
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    Amesbury, MA
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    Boris,

    Wow, what a trek. I'm so glad you got Midnight Express back and in better shape than you were after your first search.

    I hope Laurie had as much success at the fabric shop. It sounds like your timing was such that you might have caught the end of the MMMSC launch in Berwick but you'd probably had enough rocket fun that day.

    Twin lobsters are nice and the Weathervane is a good restaurant but Bill and Guy can tell you a tale of Lobster Mac'n'cheese.

    See you at the Fliskits anniversary launch next week.

  19. #49
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    Can you email me the name and number of the airport manager? I'm trying to find out where our two fire extinguishers are.

  20. #50
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    Data charts from the Featherweight Raven.
    Stats: 5+Gs for first 2 sec
    Max altitude: 1600ft
    Max velocity: 219mph

    Prefectflite HA45K was still beeping out 1572ft altitude six days later!

    Out of curiosity, I measured the voltage for each 9V Duracell used to power each altimeter after being left on for almost a week:
    Raven: 6.4V
    HA45K: 8.5V (might have kept beeping for another week)

    Of course, these batteries have been recycled.
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    Last edited by delta22; 29th December 2014 at 02:53 AM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by delta22 View Post
    Data charts from the Featherweight Raven.
    Stats: 5+Gs for first 2 sec
    Max altitude: 1600ft
    Max velocity: 219mph (late night error in video where I stated 199mph)

    Prefectflite HA45K was still beeping out 1572ft altitude six days later!

    Out of curiosity, I measured the voltage for each 9V Duracell used to power each altimeter after being left on for almost a week:
    Raven: 6.4V
    HA45K: 8.5V (might have kept beeping for another week)

    Of course, these batteries have been recycled.
    Wow, a LOT of noise in your velocity plot. The amount of variation in the red line is in line with the apogee events of most of my flight files where noise would be expected. The remainder of each flight is a lot smoother. I wonder what would cause this?
    Dan Patell
    TRA 10904 L3

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by delta22 View Post
    I like to use Rocketflite's MF wires and their CF pyrogen to fire all motors up to 29mm. Also for ejection charges.
    But for electric matches you dip in the MF-kit pyrogen for ejection charges right? Have you tried their electric match wires? Don't quite understand their difference other than length.
    Marcus Harmon
    TRA# 8736
    Level 2

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by KennB View Post
    Boris,

    Wow, what a trek. I'm so glad you got Midnight Express back...

    ... Bill and Guy can tell you a tale of Lobster Mac'n'cheese.

    See you at the Fliskits anniversary launch next week.
    Thank you. Sometimes the journey really is the adventure.

    I actually had a lot of fun running around in the woods.

    ....mmmmmmm.....Lobster Mac'n'cheese....sounds good.

    See you at the launch.


    Quote Originally Posted by billspad View Post
    Can you email me the name and number of the airport manager? I'm trying to find out where our two fire extinguishers are.
    Email sent.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusSRG View Post
    But for electric matches you dip in the MF-kit pyrogen for ejection charges right? Have you tried their electric match wires? Don't quite understand their difference other than length.
    Rocketflite has several igniter/ematch product lines:

    ML wires must be used with ML pyrogen. Slightly higher current wires, high energy pyrogen. Great for motor ignitions of any size at all.

    MF wires used with MF pyrogen. Lower current wires, quick burning pyrogen. Good for ejection charges and smaller motors.

    MF wires used with their newer CF pyrogen. Lower current wires, medium duration and energy pyrogen (more energy and duration than MF pyrogen).
    Great for ejection charges and all motors up to 29mm.
    My preferred choice, when applicable.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by delta22 View Post
    Rocketflite has several igniter/ematch product lines:

    ML wires must be used with ML pyrogen. Slightly higher current wires, high energy pyrogen. Great for motor ignitions of any size at all.

    MF wires used with MF pyrogen. Lower current wires, quick burning pyrogen. Good for ejection charges and smaller motors.

    MF wires used with their newer CF pyrogen. Lower current wires, medium duration and energy pyrogen (more energy and duration than MF pyrogen).
    Great for ejection charges and all motors up to 29mm.
    My preferred choice, when applicable.
    All of this was my understanding as well, but I didn't think CF were low current enough for ejection charges/electronics, only ground start clusters with a 12v system. I haven't tried them with an altimeter, but my PET2 timer with a 9V battery could barely ignite one CF dipped FS-12-LA wire, which Rocketflite says to use with CF pyrogen, so I'm assuming they have the same bridgewire as the MF wires since they recommend those with CF too... But I know some electronics put out current for a longer period of time, which I do not believe my PET2 timer does. Perhaps that was my trouble.

    Rocketflite also now offers "electric match wires" called HTMF-12, of course to be used with MF pyrogen, but I don't understand the difference in these and an MF-12 wire...

    Now MF wires (and apparently these HTMF-12 wires) plus MF pyrogen does make an even lower current match, which I suspect would work in all electronics, as they state it's a direct ematch replacement. I've always wondered if you could make super low-current, high-temp airstart igniters by priming MF wires with MF pyro, letting it dry and then re-dipping in CF or ML pyrogen. Somewhere they recommend against using MF matches for motor ignition, but I don't think they are considering this possible scenario.
    Marcus Harmon
    TRA# 8736
    Level 2

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by patelldp View Post
    Wow, a LOT of noise in your velocity plot. The amount of variation in the red line is in line with the apogee events of most of my flight files where noise would be expected. The remainder of each flight is a lot smoother. I wonder what would cause this?
    This was a low (1600') and slow (219 mph) flight on a Skid (high vibration motor). Also the wind was about 3 mph when the rocket was placed on the rail but there was a gusty increase to ~10 mph on the ground at launch and from the smoke trail in the video it looked like a little turbulence at altitude.

    Bob

  27. #57
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    7th June 2012
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    Boris,

    I'm really glad you got Midnight Express back! That's one beautiful rocket. Are you going to fly it in Amesbury on 27th?

    Definitely fly with tracker. With a bigger battery, radio tracker can easily run for 1-2 weeks. That's enough to go around the whole forest and triangulate the location...


    -Alex

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by patelldp View Post
    Wow, a LOT of noise in your velocity plot. The amount of variation in the red line is in line with the apogee events of most of my flight files where noise would be expected. The remainder of each flight is a lot smoother. I wonder what would cause this?
    The red plot line in the Raven's data is acceleration. I agree that data looks very noisy.

    Went back over other data charts from previous flights. Observations:

    > As Bob K. noted, the Skidmark powered flights have noticeably more vibration during boost than other motor types.
    > I had zoomed in the scale on the accel data which really highlights any data noise.
    > What looks like accel data noise during recovery is likely due to the rocket swinging back and forth under the chutes. If time scale is zoomed in, a rocking or wave pattern in accel data is apparent under chutes.

    The amount of data those tiny Ravens collect is amazing.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by azzie View Post
    Boris,

    I'm really glad you got Midnight Express back! That's one beautiful rocket. Are you going to fly it in Amesbury on 27th?

    Definitely fly with tracker. With a bigger battery, radio tracker can easily run for 1-2 weeks. That's enough to go around the whole forest and triangulate the location...

    -Alex
    Thank you.

    The Rocket only needs very minor repairs, more along the lines of typical flight maintenance.

    However, I currently have a shortage of big motors, as in none.

    The good news is that I have a lots of smaller motors, so clusters are on the menu for the next several launches...

    Alex, thanks again for your recommendation on the 808 #16 video cameras.
    The 720 video they capture for $35 is amazing.
    Last edited by delta22; 19th September 2014 at 04:15 PM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusSRG View Post
    All of this was my understanding as well, but I didn't think CF were low current enough for ejection charges/electronics, only ground start clusters with a 12v system. I haven't tried them with an altimeter, but my PET2 timer with a 9V battery could barely ignite one CF dipped FS-12-LA wire, which Rocketflite says to use with CF pyrogen, so I'm assuming they have the same bridgewire as the MF wires since they recommend those with CF too... But I know some electronics put out current for a longer period of time, which I do not believe my PET2 timer does. Perhaps that was my trouble.

    Rocketflite also now offers "electric match wires" called HTMF-12, of course to be used with MF pyrogen, but I don't understand the difference in these and an MF-12 wire...

    Now MF wires (and apparently these HTMF-12 wires) plus MF pyrogen does make an even lower current match, which I suspect would work in all electronics, as they state it's a direct ematch replacement. I've always wondered if you could make super low-current, high-temp airstart igniters by priming MF wires with MF pyro, letting it dry and then re-dipping in CF or ML pyrogen. Somewhere they recommend against using MF matches for motor ignition, but I don't think they are considering this possible scenario.
    The Rocketflite website appears to state the same all-fire specs for HTMF and MF wires.
    I only have experience with the MF and ML wires.

    While some folks have successfully added a hotter pyrogen on top of an easier to fire pyrogen, there is the risk is that the inner pyrogen may blow off the outer pyrogen before igniting it.

    I would suggest repeatedly (and carefully) ground testing any custom igniter setups to make sure of desired results.

    MF wires need to be battery fired, not fired by capacitive discharge systems. Rocketflite notes this on their website.
    I have fired many ejection charges using MF wires with Perfectflite HA45K and Featherweight Raven altimeters successfully.
    An altimeter that does NOT work with the MF wires is the Perfectflite MAWD - has capacitive discharge.

    The PET2 timer seems to have many nice features, but a quick scan of their website did not provide any info on firing current.

    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

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