Keep Losing My Rockets - Need Advice

Hi guys - new member here and complete novice. I have twin boys aged 5 and we built a rocket last week and launched it successfully - used a C6-7 engine which Estes recommended for it. It went way up there and parachute came out and then the wind took it way off course - like several miles. Bought a second rocket and launched it a bit into the wind this time and everything worked fine but again the parachute just drifts away and is completely lost. Getting frustrated. I read that I should cut holes in the parachute but not sure what that will do. Any advice? Tired of spending $40 to get one launch out of it.

First, Welcome to the Forum.
What Rockets are you launching? Most of the average size Estes Rockets will recover just fine with a Streamer instead of a Parachute. I fly my Estes Crossfires and M104 Patriot on Streamers.

Small rockets work well with streamers. Ditch your chutes altogether and attach a cloth, nylon, mylar, or some kind of very light fabric streamer (like a kite tail), and use that instead. The streamer flutters on the way down and produces just enough drag to prevent fin damage on landing. Heck, a 1 - 1.5 ounce rocket can usually free-fall with no damage, honestly.

For bigger rockets, use this site to calculate your descent rate. Use the rocket weigh the mfg. gives you, plus add a tiny bit for s spent motor casing.

Once you have the descent rate, use this formula. Wind speed in MPH X 5280 feet / 3600 seconds to get the amount of drift per second. Multiply the drift by the descent rate, and you should have an estimate of how far the rocket will drift.

Example, a 1.5 ounce rocket with a 12" hexagonal chute reaching 1200 feet will descend for 96 seconds. At 5 MPH winds, the drift per second is 7.33 feet. Multiply that by 96 seconds, and you'll get a drift of 704 feet before touchdown. That's two and a third football fields, for perspective.

kerfuffle said:

Hi guys - new member here and complete novice. I have twin boys aged 5 and we built a rocket last week and launched it successfully - used a C6-7 engine which Estes recommended for it. It went way up there and parachute came out and then the wind took it way off course - like several miles. Bought a second rocket and launched it a bit into the wind this time and everything worked fine but again the parachute just drifts away and is completely lost. Getting frustrated. I read that I should cut holes in the parachute but not sure what that will do. Any advice? Tired of spending $40 to get one launch out of it.

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If a C6-7 is a recommended motor, the long delay time (coasting time or "-7") indicates that it is a lightweight rocket. You should also have other recommended motors, like A8-3 or B6-4.

use the lowest power motor recommended to avoid losing it. The highest power motor will make it go higher and you will lose it.

It is very, very simple.

kerfuffle said:

used a C6-7 engine which Estes recommended for it.

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Try a B6-4 instead. Depending on the rocket and the size of the field you're flying on you might even want an A8-3.


In case you're not familiar with what the letter and numbers mean in the motor designation, read this.



I see Fred beat me to it. Follow that link for more detailed information.

Welcome

We do need to know what model rocket you are flying...

Some other options
Use a smaller motor, like a B6 or A10 - depends on what the rocket is
Buy a bigger rocket - it will be heavier and not go up as high

Launching into the wind is good - just stay within 30 degrees of the vertical

You can use a streamer or cut a hole in the center of the chute - I would not remove more than half the chute


And make sure to fly on "calm" days with little to no wind - although winds up high may be significantly different than at the ground.

Finally - try to buy the rockets from a Hobby Lobby or Michael's Craft store and use a 40% off coupon

Best of luck - let us know how things go

The streamers are a good suggestion. Your question was about holes in chutes. By cutting a hole in the middle, you reduce drag and increase it's descent rate (same thing switching to streamers does). Now assuming your rocket went 1500', and drifted "miles", you are probably flying on WAY too windy of a day. Another suggestion, is save the "C" engines for calm days and big fields. Many of the small Estes kits can reach 300'-700' on B or even A motors. And honestly, those smaller rockets often stop being visible higher than that. Any one, or a combination of these suggestions, should solve your problem.

Oh yeah, one more suggestion. Go to NAR.org, and look up your local club. They usually fly at fields that have plenty of room. They also are just a lot of fun. You can go to a club launch, and see dozens/hundreds of launches, and don't even have to spend any money. Plus you'll see small and big (maybe really big) rockets. The boys will love it. My club also has a program called Fly It, Take It (FITI). If a kid shows up w/o a rocket, they let them pick a brand new, already built/painted rocket. Give him/her a motor and help them launch it. The kid gets to keep it after it lands. I have never seen a kid leave a launch w/o a smile on there face.

I'm betting the recommended list included a A8-5 and a B6-6. It's a very light rocket that can use those motors. The long delay motors are mostly intended for ultra light rockets or upper stage on a 2 stage rocket. I buy the Blast-Off packs of 25 A8-3 motors, my feet hurt and I want to keep them close. You need to save the C6-7 motors for the larger fields. There can be the phenomina of upper winds being *much* faster than surface winds. What's really screwy is like when you fly a high power rocket and watch the smoke trail change direction 3 times on the way up with the smoke going in 3 directions at the same time, talk about wind shear

There are many places right now that have Estes rockets at a major discount, including Estes itself factory direct. I haven't bought a rocket or part from a store in years.I like buying the pieces and making up my own, there are free design programs if you'd like to try that route but for now the discounted rockets are a good bet.

Sign up with these guys, they run an ad every month with discounted product that they send right to your email. For more check out the section called Rocketry Resources located in the Watering Hole section of the forum and keep watching the Yard Sale section for some real bargans.

https://www.hobbylinc.com/

Not to hijack someone elses thread but I do have a question on streamers. I posted a similar question in "recovery" and someone sent me an awesome link to a calculator for streamer size. Now years ago I had several out of the box Estes rockets that included streamers. According the Estes website the streamers are no longer sold separately. That calculator said that my 3 oz. rocket needed like 50" of streamer. In my memory the Estes streamer was maybe 36 inches max. Is that calculator just giving a perfect scenario? It seemed a little excessive.

Everyone is giving you good advice on motor choice. It's been a long time since I launched a small Estes rocket with anything over a B engine. It just usually doesn't end well. And half the time you can't see much of the flight.

tomrcast said:

Not to hijack someone elses thread but I do have a question on streamers. I posted a similar question in "recovery" and someone sent me an awesome link to a calculator for streamer size. Now years ago I had several out of the box Estes rockets that included streamers. According the Estes website the streamers are no longer sold separately. That calculator said that my 3 oz. rocket needed like 50" of streamer. In my memory the Estes streamer was maybe 36 inches max. Is that calculator just giving a perfect scenario? It seemed a little excessive.

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When you get a result like that then double the width and half the length, it's still the same square inches. Use a "space blanket". They are Mylar and very thin, much thinner than the Estes streamers and are incredbly visible. I got 2 off eBay for less than $5 shipped and have made many parachutes and streamers from just the first one. Mine's silver on one side and gold on the other. I know you can get a Mylar streamer into a smaller space than the same size Estes so if you wish you can get the 50" streamer into your rocket

I also have a supply of C11-3 motors for lofting the larger 24mm rockets I'm prone to build. That motor will hump up a pretty heavy rocket with no troubles and bring it down close.

Many Estes rockets have relatively large parachutes because they can't handle hard landings. Considering a streamer will probably come down way faster than even a much smaller parachute, I don't know that's very good advice. But you should be able to find it if you don't lose sight.

I lost my first 2 rockets almost 40 years ago, by starting with the largest allowed motor. Learned my lesson, but not so well I didn't lose another one a couple months ago.

tomrcast said:

Not to hijack someone elses thread but I do have a question on streamers. I posted a similar question in "recovery" and someone sent me an awesome link to a calculator for streamer size. Now years ago I had several out of the box Estes rockets that included streamers. According the Estes website the streamers are no longer sold separately. That calculator said that my 3 oz. rocket needed like 50" of streamer. In my memory the Estes streamer was maybe 36 inches max. Is that calculator just giving a perfect scenario? It seemed a little excessive.

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Streamers can also be made out of flame-resistant crepe paper (30-foot rolls for $1 at the dollar store), construction-scene yellow tape, or cut out of trash bags or plastic tablecloths.

+1 on find a club. You will get great advice on streamers and everything else rocketry related. Chances are that your boys will find friends as well. And most clubs have real ground support equipment so you can ditch the flimsy estes launch pad. bigger fields, better equipment, more fun & great advice! Can't go wrong!

My rocket is an Estes Alpha III - does that help? I can take a picture and post it as well. This is the one I used a C6-7 engine on and although it was impressive launch and flight it was disheartening to see it drift beyond any chance of recovery.

The Alpha III was my very first rocket back in the 70's. It's so dear to my heart, I built a 4" upscale. Estes says the stock Alpha III only weighs 1.2 oz, so a C6-7 will really make it scoot. I would seriously stick to A8-3 or B6-4 motors for such a light rocket. If you like the design, you can also get a bigger version. The Alpha design is a classic in my eyes.

https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est3216.htm

https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est1903.htm

Your issue is totally understandable being in a new activity. Yes, a C6 in the Alpha III is like a 150hp canoe. You might be able to do it, but you need to have ideal conditions and location to be successful.

The Alpha III was my first rocket back in the day (OK, 40+ years ago). I've got 2 now - one in the stock Halloween colors and another painted like the original. This is a great little rocket, but not with a C6-7 and a parachute. I usually fly mine on my small (400') field with B6-4s and B4-4s, or an A8-3 if it's breezy. I almost always use a streamer - usually 30" or so of crepe paper attached to a string that attaches to the eye on the nose cone. The plastic fins are tough and will withstand a streamer landing well.

Welcome to the rocketry community - it's a great hobby!

My second rocket I used a B6-4 which looked just like a C6-7 engine except I noticed that half the propellant was gone when I took it out of the package. So my understanding is the difference between the more powerful engine and the less powerful is just how much propellant Estes puts in the engine. I asked the hobby guy for the most powerful one available cause I had no clue - and I certainly got my money's worth out of that launch. I never thought it would go as high as it did. Somehow 1150 printed on the box didn't seem too bad.

Sorry for the dumb question but what is a streamer and can I make my own? I get that it's just a waving piece that will create some drag but not enough as a parachute to drift away. I think this is what I need - and along with smaller engines

kerfuffle said:

My second rocket I used a B6-4 which looked just like a C6-7 engine except I noticed that half the propellant was gone when I took it out of the package. So my understanding is the difference between the more powerful engine and the less powerful is just how much propellant Estes puts in the engine. I asked the hobby guy for the most powerful one available cause I had no clue - and I certainly got my money's worth out of that launch. I never thought it would go as high as it did. Somehow 1150 printed on the box didn't seem too bad.

Sorry for the dumb question but what is a streamer and can I make my own? I get that it's just a waving piece that will create some drag but not enough as a parachute to drift away. I think this is what I need - and along with smaller engines

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My first rocket (back in 1968) was an Alpha (the balsa wood version of the Alpha III), and I lost it on an A8-3 engine on its first flight! To my 11 year old mind, it went a mile, though it really only went about 250 feet! I don't know what I would've thought if I'd flown it on a C6 motor!

You are correct about the amount of propellant each type of engine uses. B uses twice as much as A, C uses twice as much as B, and (theoretically) so on... The link that BillSpad gave you, https://www.nar.org/NARmotors.html is good, and here's a chart from Estes, https://www2.estesrockets.com/pdf/Estes_Model_Rocket_Engines.pdf that is more specific to their products.

To make a streamer, go to the party store or the craft store and get a roll of 2" wide flame retardant party crepe paper. Cut off about 18" and tape it to the shock cord near the nose cone, or you can tape it to a short piece of string, and tie that string to the nose cone (or better yet, a snap-swivel so you can swap it out of the rocket when you do want to use a parachute). Use recovery wadding just as you did with the parachute. Fold the streamer in halves a couple of times before rolling it down further to fit into the rocket. Remember that the rocket will fall much faster on the streamer, so if your recovery area has a lot of pavement or rocks, you might have to endure a broken fin or such.

RoyAtl said:

My first rocket (back in 1968) was an Alpha (the balsa wood version of the Alpha III), and I lost it on an A8-3 engine on its first flight! To my 11 year old mind, it went a mile, though it really only went about 250 feet! I don't know what I would've thought if I'd flown it on a C6 motor!

You are correct about the amount of propellant each type of engine uses. B uses twice as much as A, C uses twice as much as B, and (theoretically) so on... The link that BillSpad gave you, https://www.nar.org/NARmotors.html is good, and here's a chart from Estes, https://www2.estesrockets.com/pdf/Estes_Model_Rocket_Engines.pdf that is more specific to their products.

To make a streamer, go to the party store or the craft store and get a roll of 2" wide flame retardant party crepe paper. Cut off about 18" and tape it to the shock cord near the nose cone, or you can tape it to a short piece of string, and tie that string to the nose cone (or better yet, a snap-swivel so you can swap it out of the rocket when you do want to use a parachute). Use recovery wadding just as you did with the parachute. Fold the streamer in halves a couple of times before rolling it down further to fit into the rocket. Remember that the rocket will fall much faster on the streamer, so if your recovery area has a lot of pavement or rocks, you might have to endure a broken fin or such.

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Someone from my time ! I too had an original Alpha right around 1968. It survived many C powered flights with the 12 inch 'chute. After that it was on to a Big Bertha (I can't believe how expensive those were $3.00), never flew on anything less than a C and 18 inch 'chute. Real fun was a Wac Corporal on a C, about 10 inches long, BT-20. Lots of HIGH flights on that little jewel. Somehow, we always lived by More's law, "If some (A) is good, More (B) is better, and too much (C) is just right. It was great having a big old field off the back yard growing up.

My advice...

Get used to it. If it bothers you, don't push the button.

:wink:

For streamer material for small to medium-size rockets, you can't beat a 2-3 foot length of yellow caution tape. $8 at Home Depot or Loews for a 1,000' roll, which is practically a lifetime supply.

kerfuffle said:

Sorry for the dumb question but what is a streamer and can I make my own? I get that it's just a waving piece that will create some drag but not enough as a parachute to drift away. I think this is what I need - and along with smaller engines

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No such thing as a dumb question. A streamer is just a long length of material attached to a rocket instead of a parachute, as mentioned above picture the tail on a kite. Go to the rocket section on ebay and do a search for streamer, you will see a few pictures.
I have switched most of my small rockets to streamers after having lost a few. IMHO, if you are paying $40 for an Alpha III, you are shopping at the wrong store. I'm all for supporting local businesses, but not if they are robbing me.

Some updates, after losing an Alpha III and buying a replacement Alpha III, and losing that one as well (even with a large hole I cut in the parachute) I switched to the Estes Riptide rocket and have done well. Me and my young sons have launched the Riptide about 7 times now and have always retrieved it - I put a big hole in the parachute for this one as well. I also ordered an Estes Skytrax rocket and an Estes Code Red. None of these 3 rockets (including the Riptide) exceeds 700 feet which I guess is okay. I would like to go as high as possible and still retrieve it but it seems anything too high is just wasted - and it gets so high I can't see it.

qquake2k said:

The Alpha III was my very first rocket back in the 70's. It's so dear to my heart, I built a 4" upscale. Estes says the stock Alpha III only weighs 1.2 oz, so a C6-7 will really make it scoot. I would seriously stick to A8-3 or B6-4 motors for such a light rocket. If you like the design, you can also get a bigger version. The Alpha design is a classic in my eyes.

https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est3216.htm

https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est1903.htm

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Hey how do you get all that smoke on your launch - that is cool. My boys would love that - is there something I need to buy to do that?

Also I switched from the C6-7 engine to B6-4 and that has been helpful. Then I ran out of engines and my local Hobby Lobby only had B6-6 - not sure which one I like better. With the B6-6 my Riptide rocket fell to where it was maybe only 70 feet above the ground and then the parachute deployed whereas the B6-4 had the chute open up much higher. It was interesting to see such a difference in a 2 second time delay.

The C6-7 and B6-6 are really ment as second stage motors or for use in very light rockets. Another thing you need to know is the delays are +/- 20%. You just might have to go online to get the motors you really need. I know it sounds like a lot but for around $50 you can get an Estes Blast Off Pack. They have several but I'd seriously look at the all A8-3 box. There are 24 motors, igniters and wadding for a little more than $2 each, a bargan compaired to the Hobby Lobby full price on the 3 packs. It has been many years since I bought a 3 pack from a brick store, I dang near had a heart attack at the thought of close to $4 a flight for A motors

It takes a bit to learn the ins-and-outs of rocketry, how to keep costs down and not lose rockets but every time you fly things get better...until you crash your 3rd level rocket...like I did

kerfuffle said:

Some updates, after losing an Alpha III and buying a replacement Alpha III, and losing that one as well (even with a large hole I cut in the parachute) I switched to the Estes Riptide rocket and have done well. Me and my young sons have launched the Riptide about 7 times now and have always retrieved it - I put a big hole in the parachute for this one as well. I also ordered an Estes Skytrax rocket and an Estes Code Red. None of these 3 rockets (including the Riptide) exceeds 700 feet which I guess is okay. I would like to go as high as possible and still retrieve it but it seems anything too high is just wasted - and it gets so high I can't see it.

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You have reached the realization almost all rocketeers arrive at -- while it is temping to stick the largest motor possible in a rocket and it looks awesome when it lights up and zooms into the stratosphere, if it goes out of sight and gets lost the charm wears off pretty quickly (not to mention the dollar bills too).

The Riptide (and Code Red) is a much heavier rocket than the Alpha and thus will not go nearly as high on the same power motors. Plus a larger rocket is easier to see in the sky and not as easy to lose.

Just from the sounds of things a B6-4 is probably the biggest motor you would want to use on an Alpha-size rocket at your flying field. Small Alpha-size rockets fly very well on A8-3s also -- or even a 1/2A6-2.

kerfuffle said:

Hey how do you get all that smoke on your launch - that is cool. My boys would love that - is there something I need to buy to do that?

Also I switched from the C6-7 engine to B6-4 and that has been helpful. Then I ran out of engines and my local Hobby Lobby only had B6-6 - not sure which one I like better. With the B6-6 my Riptide rocket fell to where it was maybe only 70 feet above the ground and then the parachute deployed whereas the B6-4 had the chute open up much higher. It was interesting to see such a difference in a 2 second time delay.

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Bigger rockets have more weight and drag, so your smoke will tend to be more pronounced.

Also, you might want to try the Quest brand motors.. Their A6-4 & B6-4 motors tend to be a bit louder and have denser/darker smoke.


Jerome