Green Lasers as recovery tools?

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K'Tesh

.....OpenRocket's ..... "Chuck Norris"
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Just an idea...

It seems to me that a good way of finding lost rockets in large fields would be to use green pointing lasers. Someone gets stationed up on some kind of tower (or perched on top of a van/truck). They spot where a rocket goes down, and use a green laser to point the direction it went. The rocket could then be tracked down by its owner using a sign that they would hold up and see if they are on course by the reflected laser light.

Of course it has risks. You'd want to make sure that you are in radio/phone contact with the spotter once the rocket is found so they can turn off the laser, and prevent youself from getting a face full of 300mW green laser on the way back to the line.

Pointy Side Up!
Jim
 
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You will need a very powerfull laser if you want to see it over a long distance in a sunny day.
 
Green lasers are pretty powerful. I'm able to see the dot on trees that are the better part of half a mile away in full daylight.
 
With 2 people, it can be a good thing for one person to keep their eyes on a landmark, and direct the searcher by cell phone.
 
Anywhere with hills / no good LOS recovery is tough. GPS or beepers.

Getting a line to a landmark is important. Stand in a know location, take a photos as it lands / goes out of site behind a hill. Makes a great reference if you lose your line.
 
Sure beats the hell out of my minefield idea (small, explosive replaced with smoke grenades, everybody gets a map, etc.) They claimed it would be too expensive to replace all the mines triggered by a rocket getting drug across the playa, but that's what i pay dues for-right??)
BUT- I would prefer my Lasik procedure done sitting down. Not by an L3-I don't care who you are....
 
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What do you do in corn fields? Our process was to give the searcher a radio and a 6 ft. fiberglass pole with a orange flag on it. We then used two spotter separated by 100 yards or more to get a line on where the rocket landed. They then direct the orange flag until both of them say it is on the line the rocket landed on. That puts the flag right on the rocket. The good thing is the searcher doesn't need to have eyes on anything, just ears on the radio.

That works great as long as you have the two spotter separated by enough distance. The results are less accurate if you only have one spotter.
 
Or, for "Ease of Use" you could just learn how to shoot an Azimuth to your Impact Zone with a Compass.
Laser is probably an ok Idea as long as nobody gets Blinded by the Laser, but it just seems like there are easier ways.
I always carry a cheap Engineer Lensatic Compass that I got for like $8-10 at Ace Hardware in the Camping Section.
It's pretty nice for the money, and if you carry a small Signaling Mirror too you can go Line of Sight to a distant Position and still communicate back to the Line using the Mirror. No Batteries required.:)
 
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Green lasers are pretty powerful. I'm able to see the dot on trees that are the better part of half a mile away in full daylight.

It's a really bad idea to use a laser that powerful for any application around people without eye protection for everyone.

Bob
 
Green lasers are great for astronomy...pointing out features in the night sky, a "guide scope" for telescopes, etc.

I've never tried one in the daylight.
 
Tie a kite strobe to the nosecone and wait until dark. The battery lasts 24 hours or more.
 
Green lasers are great for astronomy...pointing out features in the night sky, a "guide scope" for telescopes, etc.

I've never tried one in the daylight.

I've seen them used for that and yeah they work great, but I'de be afraid to point a Green Laser into the Sky nowadays. You always here about the Lasers hitting the Cockpits of Jets, and Terrorism Charges being Pressed.
Last year there were some ridiculously high number of incidents of this. Hundreds if not thousands, I forget, but it was ridiculous.:(
 
What do you do in corn fields? Our process was to give the searcher a radio and a 6 ft. fiberglass pole with a orange flag on it. We then used two spotter separated by 100 yards or more to get a line on where the rocket landed. They then direct the orange flag until both of them say it is on the line the rocket landed on. That puts the flag right on the rocket. The good thing is the searcher doesn't need to have eyes on anything, just ears on the radio.

That works great as long as you have the two spotter separated by enough distance. The results are less accurate if you only have one spotter.

That's a really great idea. I'm mentaling filing this one away.

Greg
 
i have a powerful green laser that I use for Astronomical purposes. It makes a huge difference when star gazing and pointing out constelations for people.
I've tried using it in the daylight to point out free flight planes during the glide. It wasn't very effective.
 
I've seen them used for that and yeah they work great, but I'de be afraid to point a Green Laser into the Sky nowadays. You always here about the Lasers hitting the Cockpits of Jets, and Terrorism Charges being Pressed.
Last year there were some ridiculously high number of incidents of this. Hundreds if not thousands, I forget, but it was ridiculous.:(

I'm not saying to point these into the sky, the "spotter" would point it down from their raised location towards the observed direction. That said, the idea about the radio and the poles seems to be a better method for what I was thinking.
 
What do you do in corn fields? Our process was to give the searcher a radio and a 6 ft. fiberglass pole with a orange flag on it. We then used two spotter separated by 100 yards or more to get a line on where the rocket landed. They then direct the orange flag until both of them say it is on the line the rocket landed on. That puts the flag right on the rocket. The good thing is the searcher doesn't need to have eyes on anything, just ears on the radio.

That works great as long as you have the two spotter separated by enough distance. The results are less accurate if you only have one spotter.

Triangulation... that's the ticket alright...

Ain't geometry a wonderful thing... and no need for lasers...:)

"They're rocketeers, with frickin' LASERS on their heads!" (in Dr. Evil voice) LOL:)

Later! OL JR :)
 
I'm not saying to point these into the sky, the "spotter" would point it down from their raised location towards the observed direction. That said, the idea about the radio and the poles seems to be a better method for what I was thinking.

Sorry K-Tesh, that post was'nt directed at you, (That's why I put old_Dudes Quote in my Post),but rather at folks that use them for Astronomy. I know you were not suggesting pointing them in the Sky as that would have no bearing on a landed Rockets location.
 
Sorry K-Tesh, that post was'nt directed at you, (That's why I put old_Dudes Quote in my Post),but rather at folks that use them for Astronomy. I know you were not suggesting pointing them in the Sky as that would have no bearing on a landed Rockets location.

Didn't catch that...

Thanks for the clarification.
 
I got the iPhone app Spyglass. It has the ability to create a waypoint at whatever distance and bearing from your current position. So what I did at the Snow Ranch launch last weekend was plot two points inline with the rocket's landing bearing. Point one was plotted to be on this side of the rocket (300 yards at 125 degrees), and point two was plotted to be on the far side of the rocket (1000 yards at 125 degrees.) This app uses Google maps to show the terrain.
To find the rocket first track to point one, (Going around the mountain in the car) then start walking towards point two. If you did everything right you should find the rocket.
Apparently my bearing was off a bit, but the concept did work. As we were approaching the bearing line between point one and point two, we found the rocket laying across the road. Easiest recovery yet.
I have talked with the developer about adding rocket finding features, we may get some better functionality in the near future.
 
instead of a laser why not just use a blood hound. Have him stiff the rocket prior to launch and then let him sniff it out when it lands. I mean they are good for tracking coons and they are good at treeing a coon so why not a rocket???
 
instead of a laser why not just use a blood hound. Have him stiff the rocket prior to launch and then let him sniff it out when it lands. I mean they are good for tracking coons and they are good at treeing a coon so why not a rocket???

A few grams of crack in the rocket and a drug dog to recover sounds fun :).
 
There are rumors that the people in Wash DC are about to outlaw any laser source >5 mW for sale to the general public.

It's a really bad idea to use a laser that powerful for any application around people without eye protection for everyone.

Bob
 
Tie a kite strobe to the nosecone and wait until dark. The battery lasts 24 hours or more.

I kinda like this idea.

Somebody's gotta tell me why this won't work.

In a dark unlit field... especially if combined with some kind of nite-vision goggles, and maybe a high vantage point - nearby hill top.

Is this worth exploring???

Anybody know if I'm allowed to wander around the SUZ at Bong after dark with IR sensitive video equipment? :)
 
I kinda like this idea.

Somebody's gotta tell me why this won't work.

In a dark unlit field... especially if combined with some kind of nite-vision goggles, and maybe a high vantage point - nearby hill top.

Is this worth exploring???

Anybody know if I'm allowed to wander around the SUZ at Bong after dark with IR sensitive video equipment? :)

You don't need night vision with a strobe at night; it'll be plenty bright on its own. The main thing is that the light source is RELIABLE and OMNIDIRECTIONAL...

Reliable in that you want to make SURE that it turns on and STAYS on-- make sure that the batteries are sufficient for the load and desired run time, and just as important, that the switches and the batteries themselves cannot lose contact because of g-forces of liftoff, deployment of the parachute, and/or landing.

Omnidirectional lighting is important... and basically a strobe SHOULD be omnidirectional... We've done night launches and our club advisor launched a flashing LED "beer lapel pin" inside the clear payload bay of an Estes Hi-Jinks and it was very visible on the pad and in the air for most of the time... we saw where it drifted down, some distance from the pads (maybe 200-250 yards). We went looking for it and nearly didn't find it-- the reason?? The beer pin was highly directional, in that it shone brightest in the direction it was facing, and in that direction only, more or less. The rocket had come down with the beer pin facing DOWN, and luckily it had stuck in a clump of weeds and was facing down at a slight angle, which caused the ground around it to be illuminated with flashing red light... we couldn't see it until we were within about 15 feet of it, however, due to the directional light source, and having to be close enough to see the reflected light. Reflected light is MUCH harder to see than light directly coming from an omnidirectional light source. Red light is also harder to see than white light from a strobe. The thing is, even the brightest and most omnidirectional light source isn't going to be much help if the rocket lands in dense, waist-high grass and sinks down to the surface of the ground, or in an area of dense brush and trees...

We also had some rockets get lost due to the batteries losing contact under the acceleration of the rocket under thrust. If the batteries regain contact, it depends on the circuit as to whether the light comes back on... some don't, if they have a "momentary switch" and a latching relay or SCR to energize the circuit... once the battery loses contact, the light won't come back on on those until the button is depressed again. Also, beware of slide switches aligned with direction of flight-- they can turn themselves off under the forces of acceleration or deceleration or impact.

The main thing you have to consider is, where and in what conditions the rocket will land... as mentioned, if the rocket lands in tall brush, weeds, grass, or in an unfavorable position or direction, it may be virtually impossible to see until you're right up on top of it, literally. This is where a "squealer" or personal alarm or other recovery sonic aid can be very handy... but usually their battery life is nowhere near as long as some light sources...

The other issue is, a sonic recovery beacon isn't exactly foolproof either. We had a friend of mine launch at a club launch one time a fairly large rocket equipped with a sonic locator beacon... the mantis pad turned loose at launch and the rocket launched downrange at a shallow angle to the ground, and deployed about half a mile away downwind. We hopped on the golf cart to go find it-- we had sight of it before it disappeared behind some houses to the south, so we had a pretty good idea of the area in which it landed. We drove over, and scouted the area, and repeatedly stopped and listened, turning slowly with a hand cupped to our ear to pick up more sound... NOTHING... as we closed in, we FINALLY started hearing an extremely faint warbling from the locator... we tried to "home in on" the direction of it, and couldn't really tell much... we moved around and tried to triangulate the direction, all the while SO faint we could barely hear it. We moved around and finally started getting a bead on the direction, as the warbling tone got a little stronger. When we finally found the rocket, it was hanging in a low branch of a tree on the edge of a grain sorghum field, about 40 yards from the entry road down the edge of the field. The wind was carrying the sound away and "swallowing it up" to an amazing degree-- that thing was shrill and LOUD, yet could BARELY be heard from as little as 40-50 yards away! Thank goodness the rocket and sonic beacon were dangling from a low tree branch, because we would likely have NEVER heard it had it been laying on the ground in the field, ESPECIALLY if it had landed on the ground face-down. If it were in the top of a tree, it'd probably have been just as bad...

Just some things to think about...

Later! OL JR :)
 
i have a powerful green laser that I use for Astronomical purposes. It makes a huge difference when star gazing and pointing out constelations for people.
I've tried using it in the daylight to point out free flight planes during the glide. It wasn't very effective.
It is probably illegal to do this under current FAA airspace regulations.

I've seen them used for that and yeah they work great, but I'de be afraid to point a Green Laser into the Sky nowadays. You always here about the Lasers hitting the Cockpits of Jets, and Terrorism Charges being Pressed.
Last year there were some ridiculously high number of incidents of this. Hundreds if not thousands, I forget, but it was ridiculous.:(
The number used to be classified but it is now over 5,000 incidents annually in the US. It is a felony and the Feds are prosecuting anyone who they catch......

There are rumors that the people in Wash DC are about to outlaw any laser source >5 mW for sale to the general public.
At present FDA, OSHA, and the FAA all have regulations pertaining to the sale, manufacturing and use of non-eyesafe lasers in uncontrolled areas, in the workplace or in the open air.

https://www.laserpointersafety.com/rules-general/rules-outdoor/rules-outdoor.html is a pretty good interpretation from a laser pointer users safety group.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC70-1.pdf is a circa 2004 FAA document on laser use outdoors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasers_and_aviation_safety has some concerns and some history.

In 2009 when the FAA revised their rules, a chapter on laser use was inserted into the regulations. It has become more formalized over the years and several references are listed below.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/AIR/air2901.html

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/lasers/

Users beware.

Bob
 

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