Dog Vomit and blown celulose packing

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Kirk G

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So, I've heard of, and used a handful of the blown fireproof stuff in place of recovery wadding for my small Estes Rockets.

But as my package of tissue dwindles, I am considering investing in a bale or something that others have been using.

How much should I pay for this stuff...cause a whole cubic foot seems like overkill. And Lowes is selling 3 cubic feet for $12.95 or so! Ouch!
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Our local vendor didn't come to the last launch, and so I almost got hung. There was no one selling gallon baggies of the stuff for a buck!

Should I just invest in a bale or gallon baggie or two for this stuff?


Any advice?
 
If your club has the capacity to store it, buy a bale (damaged bales can be had at a discount, just ask the nice people at Lowes), put it in a large trash bag and donate it to the club. CMASS always has some on hand for anyone who needs it and I'll make sure MMMSClub has it, too, once the new trailer is set up.

It will PO the vendors who have been repackaging the stuff and marking it up by a huge percentage; they'll have to come up with their own hot dog money at the launches now.

If you decide to buy a bale for your self, find a few people to split the cost and the bale with; tall kitchen trash can bags split it up nicely.

That's my free advice; take it for what it's worth.
 
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Yeah, I drove past Home Depot and then Lowes tonight during my dinner break. I found the Home Depot "bale" was about a cubic foot...but the Lowes was about 3 cubic feet. (Dead reckoning here, didn't actually measure). The comparitive prices were $5.99 vs. $12.99 or so.

I could see where anybody could aford a bale, and I used to have some left over when we did our house walls... but the wife threw it out (she can always tell what I'm going to be looking for next month....)
and I hate to invest in another bale.

I don't mind a vendor repackaging a chunk in a gallon freezer bag and selling it at a buck a bag... they need to make a profit too... but I don't think I could justify hauling it back and forth, and our club isn't that large at the moment...and I'm one of the few low-power rocketeers right now. Everyone else seems to be using recovery blankets or shroud covers or tarps or something else for their larger toys.
 
looks to me like it is a no brainer.... Home Depot $5.99 for what is probably your lifetime supply. Put it in a 5gal bucket with a screw-on lid (Gamma lid). Mine doubles as a seat at launches.
 
Like Baby Wipes, dog barf is MAGIC!

Great idea, Terry. I bring a Home Depot bucket with a Gamma lid to the launches but have been using it as a trash can. I do have several more buckets AND Gamma lids...Hmmmmm....
 
I bought a bale several years ago. Haven't even dented it. Almost all of my high power birds, and some of my mid power, use Nomex blankets. About the only thing I use dog barf for anymore is to put a pinch on top of the BP in the forward closure before I tape it down.
 
I bought a bale several years ago and at the rate it's going down, I should be able to make it last forever. I got it at Home Depot and the associate didn't want to go get a fork lift just to take down a pallet for just one bale so he looked around in the back and found a ripped bag which he sold me for half price.

The rip was about 8 inches long on one of the edges and the dog barf was still compressed and I put a piece of packing tape on it and it was like new. A lot of time I take a single square of Estes wadding and put a small ball of dog barf in and put that in the body tube first and then add loose dog barf after.

Since I buy a lot of Blastoff Flight packs and bulk packs of 1/2A3-4T, I now find that I have accumulated at least a dozen packages of Estes wadding and I keep a couple in one of my range boxes to give to new flyers.
 
I go through 2 to 3 bales per year. I am about ready to go buy another one. As suggested, bring a large plastic yard bag with you when you visit the Home Depot or Lowes for any other reason and simply look for a damaged bale (torn wrapper, insides leaking out). Talk to the department manager and they will mark it down 50 to 75% off. Buy it and put it into your large bag before putting it into your car.
 
Is there a difference or preference between the type of blown insulation? Most all the dog barf that I see at the launches is gray colored, and might be fireproofed... and Lowes is offerering a "Green-type" insulation. I also saw a white, polyester fluff version. Does it make any difference?
 
Get the big bale. Buy a LOC Warlock, do not use a nomex blanket. You'll use it quickly.
 
Is there a difference or preference between the type of blown insulation? Most all the dog barf that I see at the launches is gray colored, and might be fireproofed... and Lowes is offerering a "Green-type" insulation. I also saw a white, polyester fluff version. Does it make any difference?

I just got the cheap cellulose stuff. As far as I know it's just shredded paper treated with borax or some such.
 
Get the big bale. Buy a LOC Warlock, do not use a nomex blanket. You'll use it quickly.

What is "a LOC Warlock"? I figure a "nomex blanket" is something like recovery wadding for larger diameter/higher power rockets.
 
Is there a difference or preference between the type of blown insulation? Most all the dog barf that I see at the launches is gray colored, and might be fireproofed... and Lowes is offerering a "Green-type" insulation. I also saw a white, polyester fluff version. Does it make any difference?
The gray cellulose stuff is made flame resistant with a boric acid/borax solution and is biodegradable. It won't hurt the environment or animals. This is what you want to use.

White polyester stuff and glass fiber insulation is not biodegradable. Fiberglass can kill cows and other foraging animals. Don't use either one.

Bob
 
Is there a difference or preference between the type of blown insulation? Most all the dog barf that I see at the launches is gray colored, and might be fireproofed... and Lowes is offerering a "Green-type" insulation. I also saw a white, polyester fluff version. Does it make any difference?

By law it should ALL be fireproof...

You want CELLULOSE insulation, NOT some artificial fiber like polyester or worse yet, fiberglass... that stuff will NOT decompose or rot in the environment... it will simply lay there essentially FOREVER and present a litter problem and hazard for any grazing animals. Cellulose insulation, on the other hand, being a natural wood based fiber, WILL slowly decompose and decay as wind and rain move it down to the soil surface where high moisture, microbes, and fungi will break it down as a food source and recycle it naturally. This is important if you have any intention of keeping your landowner happy. In years past, folks DID use fiberglass insulation, but unless it's picked up, it just doesn't go away... it will eventually be blown/washed down to the soil surface, beat down there by rain/wind and snow, sleet, or hail... but it won't decompose... plants may grow through it or over it, but it STILL won't decompose.

As a flying field landowner, if anyone flew with artificial non-biodegradable fiber wadding on my farm without it being securely tethered to the rocket and intended for reuse (like a nomex blanket) they would find themselves asked to leave in very short order, and if the club didn't back me up they'd be looking for another flying field.

SO, in short, DO NOT use non-biodegradable fibers for DISPOSABLE wadding... if it's intended to be reusable like a nomex heat-shield or whatever, it's okay to use artificial fibers... if you're using foam plugs or other such contrivances that are non-biodegradable, but not really intended for reuse either, tape or use a needle to push a sewing thread through the plug and then tether it securely to the rocket on the shock cord or screw eye... don't let them flutter down on their own to be left as litter on the field... respect your field owner... :)

Later! OL JR :)
 
What is "a LOC Warlock"? I figure a "nomex blanket" is something like recovery wadding for larger diameter/higher power rockets.

Nomex heat shields are available in different sizes for everything from about a BT-50 size tube on up... they're usually a rectangle or square of varying size (for the different size tubes) of flame-resistant nomex cloth... the same stuff flameproof racing car suits are made from (among other things). They usually have a small ring or eyelet in the corner to attach to the shock cord-- if you equip them with a snap swivel, you can easily move them between rockets. I have a couple myself... they're VERY handy for larger rockets from about a BT-80 size tube on up, where you'd have to use a LOT of wadding, be it dog barf or whatever, in order to protect the parachute from the hot gases and burning bits of BP from the ejection charge.

They're fairly inexpensive and of course totally reusable... when they get grungy from exposure to the blast of ejection and the gases released, they can easily be laundered, allowed to dry thoroughly, and used again.

Cellulose insulation is treated with BORATE, not BORAX... the borate acts as a flameproofing solution, mixed with water and sprayed on the stuff as it is made. The borate doesn't prevent the paper from burning, it just makes it harder to ignite, (prolonged exposure to flame WILL cause the stuff to burn) but it prevents the stuff from 'catching fire' if it is exposed to prolonged flame... when the flame is removed, the remaining material may smolder but the flames will go out and eventually it will quit smoldering. The MRSC requires all expendable rocket wadding to be treated so that it is flameproof, so that flaming toilet paper doesn't come down from a rocket and potentially ignite a grass fire or wild fire.

If you ever find used sheet wadding (Estes type wadding) you'll notice that it will have holes burned through it where it trapped bits of burning black powder during ejection... the holes will have smoldered a bit but should be burned out before it hits the ground, eliminating a potential ignition source for fires. When I was a teenager, I did use untreated toilet paper, but I was flying off my own farm, which was then in row crops and mostly bare dirt except for the green crop plants, so fire danger was virtually nil... (this is a violation of the Model Rocket Safety Code and should not be done!)

The treated stuff (cellulose dog barf) is as safe to handle as regular Estes wadding-- they're both treated with borate fire retardants... I wouldn't eat the stuff, and I'd wash my hands before eating, but otherwise, it's a relatively simple chemical. It doesn't pose any risk in the environment, either-- in fact most soils in the United States are deficient in the micronutrient boron, which is the constituent atom in the borate (along with others) and so actually dog barf is a FERTILIZER for whatever ground it lands on... at any rate, it's SUCH a tiny trace amount as to be vanishingly inconsequential...

Later! OL JR :)

PS... BTW... when you're out looking for your rocket, pick up any loose sheet wadding that flutters down from rocket flights... despite having holes burned in it from the ejection charge, it CAN be reused...I use the burned stuff closest to the motor on new flights, and put at least one sheet of unburned wadding on top of it... works great and ITS FREE!
 
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I use dog barf with my high powered rockets in addition to nomex blankets. Our club keeps a bale in our launch trailer for all to use. I also was give a full bail by some one cleaning out their garage, so I have a life time supply.
 
I just found a damaged bag of roxul, it's almost fire PROOF, not just resistant & it's enviro safe. I got ot for 35% off since it had a rip in bag.
Picture 4567.jpg
 
I just found a damaged bag of roxul, it's almost fire PROOF, not just resistant & it's enviro safe. I got ot for 35% off since it had a rip in bag.
View attachment 169104


That's rockwool. It's enviro safe in that it's made from rock which won't hurt the environment. However, if the field you're flying on is used for grazing, it's as bad as fiberglass.
 
Is there a difference or preference between the type of blown insulation? Most all the dog barf that I see at the launches is gray colored, and might be fireproofed... and Lowes is offerering a "Green-type" insulation. I also saw a white, polyester fluff version. Does it make any difference?

Just make sure it says "Cellulose". You don't want fiberglass, rock wool or anything else. Cellulose is recycled newspaper that has been chemically treated to make it fire resistant. Horrible stuff to put in your home.. but incredibly cheap.

I bought a bale of this stuff about 10 years ago.. and I even giving many 1-gallon bags away at launches but I still must have 2/3 left! I don't see how anybody could say its too expensive even at $12.99 (for what amounts to a near lifetime supply).


Jerome
 
Thank you all for the straight answers.

A grade school buddy was the first kid I knew of who was into model rocketry in the mid to late 1960s. The kid kept talking about putting motors in the rocket, or an engine, and it made no sense to me. I had no concept of what it was, but on the appointed day, he invited all his friends to come join them at 1 pm on Saturday at the school yard. he and his father laid out the wires and the launch pad and the single rocket on the rod. We got back behind him and counted down, and the rocket smoked and spit, but didn't come off the pad. and the nose cone started to smoke. He ran forward and he and his dad knocked it off the pad, and then pulled it apart. His father pronounced that it was burning up in side,, and the plastic chute had melted. After a bit of puzzlement, it was decided that the kid had used toilet paper tissues inside instead of Estes wadding, and it ignited, melting the parachute. There was nothing said about why it did not clear the rod or tower. The kid was upset but didn't understand what he had done wrong. His father turned to us and told us that was it, and there'd be no more launches that day. We all went our separate ways home.

Years later, as I have gotten into the hobby, I've found him on Facebook and tried to talk to him about this. But he never responds. Possibly ashamed, or maybe trying to avoid me. Who knows.
 
That's rockwool. It's enviro safe in that it's made from rock which won't hurt the environment. However, if the field you're flying on is used for grazing, it's as bad as fiberglass.

Exactly what bill said...

It's really not that difficult... there are two kinds of "recovery wadding" basically-- expendable and reusable.

Dog barf, sheet wadding (Estes type), green leaves, green grass, cabbage or lettuce leaves, etc. are "expendable" wadding... they make one flight, and that's it... IF you manage to find Estes sheet wadding on the ground, it CAN be reused, BUT sometimes it's very hard to find it because it disperses on the wind after ejection as it flutters down. Dog barf and green plant material will of course completely disperse, more or less...

Reusable "wadding" is like nomex heat shields, Teflon pom-poms, ejection pistons, etc. These are intended to be reused after each flight, and thus should obviously be tethered to the rocket so they return with it. Baffles of various designs usually fall into this category as well, though baffles are often used with a single sheet of wadding or a heat shield just as a "final layer of protection" against hot gas or stray bits of BP getting through the baffle...

We can also break it down into two different KINDS of recovery wadding-- biodegradable, and NON-biodegradable. Waddings made from paper products, green plant leaves, and other such things are biodegradable. Things like rock wool, fiberglass insulation, pillow or mattress ticking (stuffing), flameproof artificial fibers, Teflon pom-poms, foam plugs, etc. are NON-biodegradable.

NON-biodegradable materials SHOULD NOT be used as "expendable" waddings, that is, deliberately ejected from the rocket with no intent of recovery or reuse. Rock wool is non-biodegradable, thus shouldn't be used. Fiberglass, pillow ticking, and artificial fiber insulation is the same. One material that is commonly used in competition is foam plugs cut out to slide just inside the body tube, to act as a recovery piston... usually made from lightweight Styrofoam. Competitors like them because they're very lightweight and don't take up much space compared to alternatives, BUT, they also commonly fly them in "expendable" mode and eject them from the rocket to flutter down to who-knows-where on their own... This is irresponsible and would PO any landowner, especially after a contest where dozens of foam plugs would be littering the site here, there, and yon... It's a simple and easy fix to simply use a sewing needle to pull a length of thin sewing thread through the plug with a tail a few inches long, and tie that off to the shock cord or screw eye, and thus recover the foam plug "piston" with the rest of the rocket... that's the responsible thing to do. Of course Teflon pom-poms and nomex heat shields should be attached to the rocket and recovered with it.

Again, it doesn't matter if the material is biodegradable or not if it's REUSABLE wadding attached to the rocket... but if it's EXPENDABLE wadding that will be blown out of the rocket to flutter down on its own, MAKE SURE ITS BIODEGRADABLE, and thus won't pose (much if any) of a litter problem or pose a risk to grazing domesticated animals or grazing wildlife...

Lets respect our landowners and field hosts...

Later! OL JR :)
 
OK, so I looked through my motors and found a three-pack of Estes recovery wadding tissues burried in the bottom that I had overlooked, so I'm not quite as desperate as I thought I might be. Gad, if I had gone to a launch and the wind blew my sheets away, and there was no vendor....I might not be able to fly after the initial flight! (I tend to pack the wadding, chute and nosecone for each rocket when at home, ahead of time...and not insert the motor until on location.)

But after all the great advice, I decided to go ahead and buy a broken bale for a discount price. When I walked into Lowes and saw a re-wrapped package with a hand-written "$5" on the bottom, and some gray stuffing sticking out... I couldn't help myself. I saw myself filling that gap when the vendor doesn't show, setting up a little table and then charge a bulk for a gallon baggie of dog barf. I figure if I sell only five or so bags, I will have made back my investment, plus anything else that I care to use.

Now if I can just keep the bale out of the reach of my wife.... (did I ever tell you the tale of getting stopped by the cops for having moldy dog barf in a snack baggie? No? Well, another time, maybe....)
 
Another wadding material that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the stuff that Quest sells. It's parade float pomps. It's less an a penny a sheet and comes in a variety of colors.
 
Another wadding material that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the stuff that Quest sells. It's parade float pomps. It's less an a penny a sheet and comes in a variety of colors.

Good point... and of course there's good old fashioned crepe paper...

But, buyer beware... some have reported that cheap Chinese crepe paper isn't fireproof... by law it's SUPPOSED to be, but we all know how well that works, don't we... some folks have reported getting cheap crepe paper that burned quite readily...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Dog Vomit?
I actually like that name better than dog barf.

Dog Vomit seems a little bit more disgusting than Dog Barf --- just a little too real. Dob Barf has a certain playful whimsy to it.

My nephew asked me, "What's that stuff called again? Horse crap?"
 
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