CG & CP: I get it, but why?

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Trooper

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I understand the CG needs to be in front of the CP. This leads to tall, slender, top-heavy rockets with shapely fins...Anyway, why are rockets more stable when the CG is well in front of the CP? Is it because the greater the arm between the CP and CG requires more force to change the rocket direction?
 
The rocket will tend to rotate around the Center of Gravity, so you want the corrective force of the wind moving past the rocket body to keep it going straight. The Center of Pressure is an abstraction for the center of those aerodynamic forces, and if it's behind the C.G., wind pressure will restore the attitude when it deviates. If the C.P. was forward of the C.G., the force would tend to exaggerate the deviation.

Imagine that the rocket begins to pitch over; it pitches around the C.G. point. Now, the drag force on one side will be higher than the other, tending to return the rocket to straight. Since the C.P. is the center of the aerodynamic surface, having the majority of it behind the C.G. means that the correction will be opposite the pitch direction.

The reason to avoid "over stability" is that the corrective force becomes so great that the rocket will over-correct and oscillate. So, more stability is not always better. I.e., if you have a "long skinny" rocket (with fins), you don't need nose weight ("top heavy").
 
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If you have ever seen a large, unstable rocket launched, you'll understand why. It can be really bad for your underwear. Loops are scary.
 
If a rocket turns, the thrust turns with it. But the mass tries to keep moving in the same direction and the effect of airflow, if total is behind the CG, turns it back in the direction of movement. Essentially a little bit of the weight in the nose, given inertia on the rod, guides the rocket by making it go straight, and in so doing gets more inertia and guides it further.

If wind at launch causes the total airflow to take an angle to the rocket, with most rockets this will move the actual CP forward. This could result in CP ahead of CG, at least momentarily, if the "static" CP isn't far enough back. This might not be recoverable if extreme, and stability margin is small even best case. A margin of error is also desirable when considering calculated CP.
 
Try to balance a broom in the palm of your hand, bristles up, and keep it pointed straight up. That's negative stability: the CP is ahead (on top of) the CG. Now (assuming you're tall enough...) hang the broom from your hand, bristles down. A lot easier to keep the thing vertical, isn't it. This is positive stability, where the CG is ahead of the CP. With a normal broom, it's also fairly easy to swing the broom with a push to one side, but it will always end back where it started. Having negative stability is not always a bad thing. Guided missiles and airplanes with computer controlled guidance are agile and can turn on a dime because their design gives them negative stability. BUT, if they ever lose computer control, they will go out of control, or flip end-for-end like a dart thrown backwards.
 
Try to balance a broom in the palm of your hand, bristles up, and keep it pointed straight up. That's negative stability: the CP is ahead (on top of) the CG.
And now try the same experiment with a perfectly stable model rocket. Unless it's a small one which can rest on its fins on the palm of your hand, it will probably behave the same way as the broom. ;)

Now (assuming you're tall enough...) hang the broom from your hand, bristles down. A lot easier to keep the thing vertical, isn't it. This is positive stability, where the CG is ahead of the CP.
Now build a rocket with inadequate fins and hang it from your hand, fins down. It will stay nice and vertical. It won't do very well when you put a motor in it and try to launch it, though. ;)

Moreover, this analogy of holding things by the top and pulling them leads to the Pendulum Fallacy in which some people wrongly believe that having the motor at the top of the rocket, pulling it the same way you pull the broom by hanging it from your hand, makes the rocket more stable. It doesn't. (Well, not because of having the thrust at the top, anyway. The motor is one of the heaviest components of a model rocket so putting that at the top moves the CG up, aiding stability. Goddard's original liquid-fuelled rocket, on the other hand, had the combustion chamber and nozzle at the top but all the fuel at the bottom, so the thrust was at the top but most of the mass was not; the CG was therefore too far down and the rocket was unstable.)
 
^^-- the confusing part is with the broom analogy is it's upside down. Your hand is the CP and it only works if CP is above the CG. Once a rocket is put into motion upwards, the CG wants to keep moving upwards, not right or left.

The term Center of Gravity also slightly confuses the issue, the real function is Center of Mass ... which happens to be the same as CG in uniform gravity, to measure, but gravity becomes the enemy as soon as a you launch a rocket (except recovery ;) ) therefore you have to keep putting in energy to keep the mass moving upwards. But the rocket would be just as stable without gravity. Mass is not Weight!!
 
It has to do with stability; there are math reasons but I expect you don't want that.

Think about a shopping cart: the rear wheels are fixed, but the front wheels pivot. The CM is (let's assume) at the center of the cart, and the cp (where the straightening force is) is at the very back.

If you push a shopping cart and then let it coast, it'll go straight. Next time you're at the store and there's nobody around, let one coast backwards, and watch it whip around 180 degrees and then proceed forward. Not what you want a rocket doing.


Same thing with cars: front-wheel-drive cars understeer: this is when the front wheels skid, and the car just plows straight ahead. Rear-wheel-drive cars more often oversteer: the tail whips around when only the back wheels spin. This is unstable.
 
The rocket will tend to rotate around the Center of Gravity, so you want the corrective force of the wind moving past the rocket body to keep it going straight. The Center of Pressure is an abstraction for the center of those aerodynamic forces, and if it's behind the C.G., wind pressure will restore the attitude when it deviates. If the C.P. was forward of the C.G., the force would tend to exaggerate the deviation.

Imagine that the rocket begins to pitch over; it pitches around the C.G. point. Now, the drag force on one side will be higher than the other, tending to return the rocket to straight. Since the C.P. is the center of the aerodynamic surface, having the majority of it behind the C.G. means that the correction will be opposite the pitch direction.

The reason to avoid "over stability" is that the corrective force becomes so great that the rocket will over-correct and oscillate. So, more stability is not always better. I.e., if you have a "long skinny" rocket (with fins), you don't need nose weight ("top heavy").

This is the right answer.
 
This is the right answer.

cub_rockets_lesson03_figure7.jpg


It's from this page: https://www.teachengineering.org/vi.../lessons/cub_rockets/cub_rockets_lesson03.xml
 
Here's a slightly different take on it.

Looking at the diagram in the previous post, you can see how the CG and CP are both points that the rocket tends to rotate around.

Consider taking your rocket into the vacuum of space. If you toss it, it will tend to rotate around its center of mass (or CG as we label it) since there's no air to affect the rotation.

If you mount the rocket sideways in a wind tunnel, the wind will tend to make it rotate around its center of pressure (CP) like a wind vane.

If the two points, CG and CP, are at different places along the length of the rocket, then the tendency to rotate will be canceled out. The rocket can't rotate around two points at once.

The above should make it easy to see why the CG and CP should not be at the same place along the length of the rocket.

But why does the CG have to be ahead of the CP?

Imagine installing a pivot on the rocket at the CG so that the rocket is free to rotate around the CG. Blow air on the rocket. Like a wind vane, the rocket will rotate so that it points into the air stream because the force of the air on the end with the fins is greater than on the end with the nose cone. When the rocket is pointing into the air stream, the CP is behind the CG (in the direction we want the rocket to go). Reverse the relationship of the CG and CP and the rocket will tend to point the wrong way.

-- Roger
 
One thing to remember, is that, unless something moves around inside the rocket (like the parachute and wadding sliding backward down the tube under the g-forces of launch) and the mass of the burning propellant being converted into gas and being expelled from the rocket, the CG does not change in flight. Now, the propellant burning off is constanly making the rear of the rocket lighter, and the forward mass should be fixed, so actually during flight the CG is slowly moving forward... (in model rockets anyway-- in large liquid propellant rockets, the CG is actually slowly moving aft as the remaining propellant is of course in the bottom of the stage tanks, but that's a separate issue unless you're designing rockets for NASA...).

CP, on the other hand, DOES move around during flight... the location of the CP is dependent upon a number of issues-- fin size, rocket length, tube diameter, transitions and their orientation, etc. Probably the most important thing that affects the CP in flight is that the CP moves forward as the angle of attack increases, that is, the further the nose moves to the side of the direction of flight, the further forward the CP moves. The CP moves to its maximum forward position due to this effect when the angle of attack (the direction the nose is pointing) is 90 degrees to the direction of flight-- IOW, the rocket would be flying sideways. That is why the cardboard cutout method of determining the CP location (center of lateral area) is the most conservative. It's also why a marginally stable rocket, one where the CP is too close to the CG, may be easily thrown off-course from wind or other disturbances, and could potentially go unstable at any moment. For one thing, the closer the CP is to the CG, the less "leverage" the forces acting on the fins has to turn the rocket back to the direction of flight-- the forces of the airflow in front of the CP are counteracting the forces of the air acting behind the CP. If the rocket isn't pushed far off course (small angle of attack), the forces on the fins should be enough to nudge the rocket back on course. If, however, the nose is pushed too far off course (too high an angle of attack) the CP COULD shift forward enough either to be in exactly the same place as the CG, or worse yet, IN FRONT of the CG... The rocket would simply continue to go wherever it's pointed if the CG and CP overlap-- the aerodynamic forces on the fins are perfectly balanced by the aerodynamic forces acting on the nose/forward area of the rocket in front of the CP. In the case of the CP shifting in front of the CG, the rocket will go completely unstable and will not recover... it will simply pinwheel out of the sky. A neutrally stable rocket (CP and CG in the same place) may straighten out (if the rocket stops rotating long enough to go where its pointed, lowering the angle of attack to near zero and thus pushing the CP rearward again, or by the CG moving forward as propellant burns off and moves the CG forward), but what direction its pointing is anybody's guess... and when the next disturbance will push it off course or possible cause it to go completely unstable. Sometimes the rocket straightens out and flies in some unanticipated direction roughly upward... sometimes it starts pinwheeling or skywriting and flops to the ground...

That's the reason why the usual stability margin is described at a minimum as "one body tube diameter behind the CG". The cardboard cutout method (center of lateral area) is the most conservative CP location method because it is the most conservative, showing the CP in it's "worst case scenario" location (at a 90 degree angle of attack, which theoretically the rocket should never reach if the CG is forward of this point at liftoff). Other CP calculation methods usually are "more realistic" and put the CP further rearward, BUT it's possible that the CP point is actually forward of this point, or will move forward of this point if the angle of attack gets too high...

One other method of determining the CP is the swing test-- tie a loop of string around the rocket and tape it down to the body tube, and swing it, starting at the CG (where the rocket hangs horizontally in the loop of string, showing the weight on one side is balanced by weight on the other). If the CP is behind the CG, if the rocket is swung around in a circle around one's head (or suspended in smooth airflow) the rocket SHOULD turn nose-forward (demonstrating stability). Now, if the loop is slowly moved backward bit by bit, sooner or later the rocket will not point straight ahead anymore-- it will point in some completely random direction-- this is the actual CP location. If the string is moved further back, soon the rocket will begin to point "tail first" as spun around one's head in a circle (or in smooth airflow). This demonstrates that the CP is BEHIND the string's present location, as the forces acting on the front of the rocket (in front of the string toward the nosecone) is now stronger than the forces of the wind acting on the fins and rocket parts behind the string, causing it to face "backwards" into the airflow.

Later! OL JR :)
 
This leads to tall, slender, top-heavy rockets with shapely fins.....

Well, they kinda need to be "tall" and "slender" just to minimize aerodynamic drag. This dates back to the 60s and 70s when we only had small low-power blackpowder motors, without a lot of thrust, and we had to build light, clean rockets it they were going to get very high at all. Short-and-fat designs tend to get into trouble with insufficient stability (unless you add a ton of nose ballast, which also kills flight performance) and high drag. And the "top-heavy" thing is necessary only to the extent that you get the overall CG properly positioned in front of the CP; any further added nose weight is detrimental.

Anyway, why are rockets more stable when the CG is well in front of the CP?

As noted above, a rocket (or any other free-flight object) rotates around its center of mass. Rockets with "more" stability have bigger aft fins, or longer aft body length behind the CG, or both, and this results in the rocket responding more vigorously to a given crosswind (or any other disturbing effect). Too little stability is bad, too much stability is bad, you need the Goldilocks "just right" zone. The generally recommended stability margin is to have a distance between CG and CP equal to one to two calibers (a "caliber" being equal to the average body diameter of your rocket design).

Rockets with excessive stability will turn into local crosswinds more severely....and this is not a good thing. (There is a term for this: a rocket is said to have gone "cruise missile" when it turns into the wind and travels horizontally.) An over-stable rocket can actually arch over and head towards the ground--and sometimes will impact before the recovery system deploys. As you can probably guess, this is not good either.

Hope some of that helped, although after some of these explanations, I wouldn't blame you at all for asking for more clarification.
 
One other method of determining the CP is the swing test-- tie a loop of string around the rocket and tape it down to the body tube, and swing it, starting at the CG (where the rocket hangs horizontally in the loop of string, showing the weight on one side is balanced by weight on the other). If the CP is behind the CG, if the rocket is swung around in a circle around one's head (or suspended in smooth airflow) the rocket SHOULD turn nose-forward (demonstrating stability). Now, if the loop is slowly moved backward bit by bit, sooner or later the rocket will not point straight ahead anymore-- it will point in some completely random direction-- this is the actual CP location. If the string is moved further back, soon the rocket will begin to point "tail first" as spun around one's head in a circle (or in smooth airflow). This demonstrates that the CP is BEHIND the string's present location, as the forces acting on the front of the rocket (in front of the string toward the nosecone) is now stronger than the forces of the wind acting on the fins and rocket parts behind the string, causing it to face "backwards" into the airflow.

Later! OL JR :)

Funny, I have rockets fail the swing test that still fly 100% stable. My trash rocket failed the swing test, and proceeded to have a flight that stunned the RSO (not physically).
 
I'm sure, at this point, Trooper is sorry he asked.

Not at all! I've been really busy this week, and just noticed this thread came alive. Maybe Sunday, I'll finally get a chance to get caught up. On another note, I finally mounted fins on two separate tubes tonight (projects started in December).
 
If you push a shopping cart and then let it coast, it'll go straight. Next time you're at the store and there's nobody around, let one coast backwards, and watch it whip around 180 degrees and then proceed forward.

The Dukes of Hazzard maneuver ;)

Shopping cart is an excellent example, all the better because it's horizontal so it doesn't confuse anything with gravity. It continues forward because its center of MASS is in front of its CP.

As to a rocket failing a swing test, I tend to believe the issue is that shifting of CP with angle of attack. With a rocket that is only stable over a small angle, you have to get it moving perfectly straight ... and even then the air is moving at an angle at some part of the rocket unless the rocket is far shorter than the string. OTOH, any rocket longer than it is wide is stable if the swing test is done in a vacuum. One alternative, wind testing, lacks these latter issues but angle of attack is an even bigger problem in natural wind. My method is to keep moving the CG/string point further forward, to find out where it is unambiguously stable. If that's not far from the maybe-stable point, that maybe becomes a probably.
 
Funny, I have rockets fail the swing test that still fly 100% stable. My trash rocket failed the swing test, and proceeded to have a flight that stunned the RSO (not physically).

Well, that's been known to happen-- the swing test isn't 100% duplicating the forces acting on the rocket in flight...

Later! OL JR :)
 
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