POLL: 2 stage rocket - Raven or RRC3?

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Which (main) altimeter for 2 stage?

  • Featherweight Raven

  • Missileworks RRC3


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stealth6

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I'm in the early stages of designing/building a two-stage scratch built rocket. Booster will have a 38mm motor, and the sustainer a 29mm. BlueTube airframes, plastic nose cone, carbon/ACply fins.

I'm having trouble deciding whether to design this with my Raven or my RRC3 in mind for main avionics. The sustainer AV bay (which will house this unit) will be responsible for igniting the second stage, firing the separation charge, and of course dual-deployment recovery for the sustainer itself. The Raven is capable of 4 separate outputs for these events, and with the RRC3 I could gang the airstart ignition and sep. charge together onto the aux. output. Both are of course super capable units for whatever else I might want/need.

So what say you? If you had both available, which would you go with? Reasons? Your own experience?

And yes, Adrian and Jim are perfectly welcome to chime in with their own preferences/reasoning/selling points. In fact I'd love to get their viewpoints on this.

Oh, and I will be putting avionics in the interstage coupler as well, to handle deployment of the booster recovery. Yes, I know I could make it simpler and go with motor ejection for this task, but I'm more comfortable with electronic deployment for this one. This means that I COULD ignite the separation charge from that AV bay if necessary, or if I have a compelling reason to do so. This might have some bearing on main question.

thanks for your input, s6
 
I like the Raven's constantly-checking-all-conditions programming. It is very flexible, more so I believe than the rrc3 (based on descriptions of the rrc3 software).
 
I use all 4 channels on the Raven for my 2 stage flights.

1st event- separation charge
2nd event- Sustainer ignition
3rd event- Apogee charge
4th event- Main charge

Inner stage coupler has its own (Adept22) altimeter for the apogee only charge.

I use a second (SL100) altimeter for the Apogee and Main back up only for the sustainer.

Motor eject (if available) for back up booster apogee deployment.
 
Raven for safety - I think there are discussions on TRF outlining how to program a safe 2nd-stage ignition (avoiding off-vertical lighting of the motor, etc).
 
It can? I thought this was a baro only device...

The Raven does not do a "real" vertical check like a Tiltometer. It can't with a two axis accelerometer. It simply checks altitude by a certain time as an approximation that the rocket should be fairly vertical. RRC3 has similar logic that can be used for lighting stages or air starts.
 
This years' project for me is 38mm 2-stage.

I had looked pretty hard at the RRC3. ...And at the Raven, as well.

Right now I'm using the Raven. Here's what swung me over to that way:
  • Packaging of the Raven/PowerPerch. Switch, battery, altimeter all-in-one.
  • Depth of programming options.
  • Ability to make any channel redundant (I will probably make channels 2 & 3 redundant apogee charges)
  • Ease of viewing various data after the flight.


<shrugs> But that's just me. Posted here just to be subscribed, I'm sure there will be lots of good information from this thread.


All the best, James
 
I can't help you choose because I haven't used the RRC3. I have used the Raven on dozens of flights, including one today. Nice flight with a new Raven 3. If you use it, you must be very familiar with how it works. One thing to determine is if you have an accurate accelerometer or one of the ones that reads low. That affects if/how you can use certain options. The other thing I would recommend is to have Adrian review your configuration against your expected flight profile. Although I am pretty familiar with them and how they work, I still have Adrian review my setup for every high-altitude flight. He often catches errors or alternatives. I'm sure he would be happy to do it for you.

Jim
 
How about telemega?


Christopher Short
Chris' Rocket Supplies
www.csrocketry.com
850-554-6531

I would certainly like to try, but no HAM and already have 2xRRC3s. I have a few questions in with Jim Amos that will make or break moving forward using one for sustainer ignition. The EasyMini does offer an attractive option, but the Raven seems to have similar features at about half the cost. No doubt in my mind though the telemega is unique in its abilities to perform as a flight computer and GPS tracking beacon. Please set me straight if I am wrong but the Telemega requires a HAM, user supplied antenna (probably easy but something currently an unknown quantity of difficulty and cost) a tele-dongle, and tele-bt to utilize the GPS telemetry and tracking features. If my understanding is accurate that puts the Telemega package@$650+Ground station (laptop & yagi).
https://www.csrocketry.com/store/electronics/alltus-metrum.html

A BRB900 with no HAM required costs ~$380+shipping with LCD ground station or ~$310 if used with a PC. https://www.bigredbee.com/zc139/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=199&zenid=2gh0sqbj0h2203ebk3ouj1a8s7

Certainly less overall as far as features and more in the way of necessary space but that puts GPS tracking with a BRB900 and flight functions with an RRC3 w/USB interface dongle@~$475+shipping or BRB900/Raven combo@ ~$535+shipping. Both options require only a laptop for setup and the BRB LCD is easy and convenient in the field.
https://www.missileworks.com/store/#!/RRC3-Sport-Altimeter/p/25239688/category=5760485
https://www.featherweightaltimeters.com/The_Raven.php

I have been seriously tempted to ignore the pleas of my wallet since seeing the products in person at your stand then talking with the nice AltusMetrum folks alongside during Airfest last year. So please sir, help me understand how the extra coin is worth it so maybe I can justify the extra money and time studying for a HAM to myself and more importantly my spouse.

Sorry, didn't intend to go so far derailing the RRC3 vs Raven poll/thread just trying to work out the details of a HPR two stage for my first time and don't want to leave any stone unturned in the interest of SAFETY and success.
 
The Easy Mega is a TeleMega without the 70cm GPS tracker that anyone can use. I saw on my club website that 2 stagers above an "I" will not be allowed unless there is some sort of vertical testing involved a' la Raven or RRC3.
The Easy Mega of course is a $300.00 investment and the Tilt-o-Meter is out of production due to an essential part no longer being made.

Now I believe the TeleMega could be tracked via simple APRS for recovery but the rich realtime data would not be available. If one wanted to save money, there are some more economical receiving options..... But if one uses a "native" Altus Metrum receiving device, a whole passel of information is telemetered at a much higher rate than APRS can do. Antennawise? The deal there is how far do you expect the project to go? Many folks use a simple antenna on their receiver for the low powered 16mW Beeline GPS trackers. If one is going to expect the rocket to land several miles away an Arrow yagi could be invested in. I've never had to
use my Arrow to track a BLGPS but my projects have never gone farther than 1.5 miles. Yes I lose the signal when the rocket lands at that distance but the last position is frozen in the map. I proceed to the rocket and open the squelch of the radio and I can
sometimes hear a weak APRS signal coming in. The radio can't decode it but I'm then confident that as I get closer a decodeable packet will arrive for a final "resting place" location.

I will admit, I'm addicted to the HSI (Heading Situation Indicator) on my Garmin 60Cs handheld GPS. Run a single wire from the radio receiver to the serial port on the 60Cs and the rocket (waypoint) is tracked on a map in realtime. I lock the 60Cs to the rocket
while it is on the pad and "command" the unit to "navigate to" the rocket waypoint. The 60Cs computes the "heading to" while the rocket is in flight. I can scroll from the map to the HSI at will. The map will tell me while in flight what direction to look for the main deployment. The screen on the radio will give me the MSL GPS altitude so I can tell by the rate of descent if the apogee event occurred and the drogue is out. Also when the main is out can notice a further slowing in the rate of descent. All this is helpful if
you can't see the rocket. I've had five flights with a Wildman Jr. that were completely nominal and nobody saw any "events". Walk up to the rocket and it's obvious it performed nominally. Incidentally without tracking, the rocket
wouldn't have been "found" all five times so I consider my investment has paid for itself. Yes, APRS is quite an investment but 7 years ago, it was all that was available. The "unlicensed" options were more or as pricey as the
Ham radio APRS devices back then.

My view on tracking with a laptop: A laptop should only be used to record a flight and the data points. There are a variety of APRS tracking programs out there. The only one that will record and playback the flight in real time is
UI-View. It is going to be very difficult to use UI-View as a commercial mapping program that worked with it is no longer available. Xastir will record a flight and replot the saved data points but will not record or playback in real time like UIView.

Laptops should be considered stationary receiving stations. Triapsing about with one would be a real PITA. One needs to consider a portable solution like I outline above so they can actually carry with them to the rocket in case they
need to re-acquire a position packet on the fly to "home-in" on the rocket. PLUS. Hard to read a laptop screen in direct sunlight. I put a magmount antenna on the roof of my SUV and lock the laptop in the vehicle to record the flight if I'm so
inclined that day. Otherwise I just use the handheld tracking station if I don't want to do the hassle of setting up the station.

The EggFinder and EggFinder TRS are a nice economical option that doesn't require a ham license that has one interesting advantage. Instead of a once every 5 seconds update rate that APRS beacons, it sends the position once a second as long as the system isn't locked out due to G forces or high Mach. The disadvantage is the GPS chipset is SIRF4 that is optimized for terrestial use and the altitude values can only be trusted as far as the trending goes.
The unit was designed to be economical so this isn't necessarily a problem because if you find your rocket, you can download the "accurate" data off your electronics. SIRF4 gives nicely accurate lat/long for recovery.

The TRS with the LCD receiver goes one step further and instead of the GPS altitude, once locked, it telemeters the baro altitude from the baro chip corrected for the launcher ground level. So it is a pretty accurate AGL indicator that one can read at the receiver.

There is an Android Ap usable with the EggFinders, GPS rocket locator, that is pretty nice when it works but it helps to have a backup handheld mapping GPS one can manually input the lat/long from an EggFinder LCD receiver.

There is a way to record a flight with Xastir using the EggFinder by using a Python script to convert the incoming EF position data to APRS that can be read by Xastir. A fellow on the Xastir board sent it to me. EggFinders and APRS are not compatible. Think of the EggFinder and TRS as simply a USB GPS receiver without the cable.....hence the 1/sec update rate. I will say the 1/sec data points looks pretty neat on a map.

The 900Mhz BeelineGPS anyone can buy and is turnkey with no building required (as one must do with the EggFinders) . Also the GPS chipset is better suited for rocketry and is accepted for Tripoli altitude records:
https://www.tripoli.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=qM5Rub0u6jM=&tabid=285

The EggFinders weren't designed for record hunting but if one can kit build one can save for more motors.:lol: Kurt



I would certainly like to try, but no HAM and already have 2xRRC3s. I have a few questions in with Jim Amos that will make or break moving forward using one for sustainer ignition. The EasyMini does offer an attractive option, but the Raven seems to have similar features at about half the cost. No doubt in my mind though the telemega is unique in its abilities to perform as a flight computer and GPS tracking beacon. Please set me straight if I am wrong but the Telemega requires a HAM, user supplied antenna (probably easy but something currently an unknown quantity of difficulty and cost) a tele-dongle, and tele-bt to utilize the GPS telemetry and tracking features. If my understanding is accurate that puts the Telemega package@$650+Ground station (laptop & yagi).
https://www.csrocketry.com/store/electronics/alltus-metrum.html

A BRB900 with no HAM required costs ~$380+shipping with LCD ground station or ~$310 if used with a PC. https://www.bigredbee.com/zc139/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=199&zenid=2gh0sqbj0h2203ebk3ouj1a8s7

Certainly less overall as far as features and more in the way of necessary space but that puts GPS tracking with a BRB900 and flight functions with an RRC3 w/USB interface dongle@~$475+shipping or BRB900/Raven combo@ ~$535+shipping. Both options require only a laptop for setup and the BRB LCD is easy and convenient in the field.
https://www.missileworks.com/store/#!/RRC3-Sport-Altimeter/p/25239688/category=5760485
https://www.featherweightaltimeters.com/The_Raven.php

I have been seriously tempted to ignore the pleas of my wallet since seeing the products in person at your stand then talking with the nice AltusMetrum folks alongside during Airfest last year. So please sir, help me understand how the extra coin is worth it so maybe I can justify the extra money and time studying for a HAM to myself and more importantly my spouse.

Sorry, didn't intend to go so far derailing the RRC3 vs Raven poll/thread just trying to work out the details of a HPR two stage for my first time and don't want to leave any stone unturned in the interest of SAFETY and success.
 
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Thanks for the information. I agree with you fully on using a laptop in the field isn't ideal and generally a PITA. The outlined procedure for the Garmin makes way better sense to me.
The antenna data clears things up somewhat although still muddy on -use a simple antenna on their receiver for the low powered 16mW Beeline GPS trackers - are you saying attaching a BRB antenna to the Altus Metrum Tele-Dongle will work to acquire short-medium range real time telemetry? If so is the Tele-Dongle connected directly to a receiver such as the Garmin you use? Undoubtedly the learning involved with earning a HAM will fill many knowledge gaps. Recovery of one large project that would have been lost otherwise would likely cover the investment of time and funds.
 
Thanks for the information. I agree with you fully on using a laptop in the field isn't ideal and generally a PITA. The outlined procedure for the Garmin makes way better sense to me.
The antenna data clears things up somewhat although still muddy on -use a simple antenna on their receiver for the low powered 16mW Beeline GPS trackers - are you saying attaching a BRB antenna to the Altus Metrum Tele-Dongle will work to acquire short-medium range real time telemetry? If so is the Tele-Dongle connected directly to a receiver such as the Garmin you use? Undoubtedly the learning involved with earning a HAM will fill many knowledge gaps. Recovery of one large project that would have been lost otherwise would likely cover the investment of time and funds.

Altus-Metrum uses their own encoding for the transmission of data to the Tele-Dongle or Tele-BT. Now as an option, their newer units can send out APRS packets but that just gives position. Their newer units can do both. It's just that APRS can't carry all the information they send with their encoding algorithm. The Tele-Dongle is attached to a laptop. I purchased a Tele-GPS and it's one of the smallest GPS trackers out there. It works with any APRS receiver and the receivers that A.M. makes. A new Tele-BT is in the works and it has Bluetooth connectivity so one can bond it to their Android device and run a version of their tracking program from their handheld device without a laptop necessary. A laptop can be used if desired through B/T I believe with the Tele-BT too. Their telemetered information is very data-rich but APRS can only be used for position information.

For my D72A receiver I use a better quality SMA antenna than comes with the radio. You can use any SMA antenna on the tele-dongle and the tele-bt is shown mounted on a yagi at the Altus Metrum website. The Beeline GPS comes with a wire antenna one has to provide their own antenna for their receiving station.

You are totally correct if a large pricey project, goes out of sight, no events seen and recovers nominally, if whatever tracker allows one to recover the rocket, it will pay for itself in a very short time. GPS gives a little more piece of mind over RDF. If an RDF project goes out of range and the person doesn't have a good bearing on it, there is a risk the rocket could be lost. Re-acquire a signal for a bearing and one will be O.K. GPS will at least give one a position they can proceed to and likely re-acquire a final position to home in on. All this is relative of course. If the rocket goes for many miles, the final resting place could be quite a distance away from the last received packet. But................ I think this would be the exception for 3% of the fliers whereas the rest of us will not be sending rockets to those distances.

If you want to do a large complex 2 stager, you will not go wrong with a Tele-Mega and a Tele-BT ground station. All-in-one setup. An updated Tele-BT last I heard was still in development. Smaller projects? There are other cost effective alternatives but there are trade-offs with any choice. Newer rules and practices stipulate some sort of vertical testing to avoid grossly off vertical ignition of a second stage. That is always a sick feeling to observe one of those flight. Kurt
 
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