What Became Of The Launch Pad TALOS???

Well first my PC totally crashed (good old VISTA) and when I finally got my laptop going ,I could not find my password to access the site and sent a request to the admin., but no luck......so I just started punching in random stuff and bingo (this was actually my brothers account way back when) hence the password fiasco.

Not building rockets anymore ,just too many.

Although thinking about the Talos ,you really never know ,remember the Nike Hercules ?

Take care

Paul T

sodmeister said:

Well first my PC totally crashed (good old VISTA) and when I finally got my laptop going ,I could not find my password to access the site and sent a request to the admin., but no luck......so I just started punching in random stuff and bingo (this was actually my brothers account way back when) hence the password fiasco.

Not building rockets anymore ,just too many.

Although thinking about the Talos ,you really never know ,remember the Nike Hercules ?

Take care

Paul T

Click to expand...

Hmmm...

Anyhow, I have some parts inbound that will help the Build to work, and though I said that there would be no Build Thread, I think that I may just start one after all, as it is about high time that Rockets had 12 Fins and a Nose Cone!!!

If you look at the Major Vendors, even though they are amazing and all, they all sell the same Rocket/Rockets.
Face it, the state of Evolution in this Hobby is totally Static. I won't go so far as to call out Vendors that are really Popular but offer only variations on a single Theme, but that pretty much encompases ALL OF THEM. So I don't need to name names. Ya'll know who all of you are.
It's high time someone offers some Military Scale Kits for us Folks that like a Story behind our Missile, and don't want something that flies out of sight.

[video=youtube;-PxV_eOTxp0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PxV_eOTxp0[/video]

This Photo has great detail of the Nose Cone:

Somebody built one, as I found this Picture today during my research.:

I have found I have better search results when I add the word Navy to Talos Missile for Google.

Hey Top,

I am very interested in this project... Please update as time and trials allow...

Like you, I get bored easily with variations on the same basic concept... (3 or 4 fins and a tube)

If someone tells me it can't be done, that just makes me try harder...

I am also very interested in the MK82 Snakeye project by Chris Attebery...

At some point, I will pick up where he left off... (collecting parts)

BTW, How goes the wind tunnel/truck thingy working?

Y

I have'nt even begun to think about the Wind Tunnel aside from designing it in my head as a Plexiglass Box with a Mount for a Camera and an anemometer, so that the Screen of the anemometer and piece being tested are both visible in the Frame/Video.
It's definitely not Rocket Science.
I don't think I'll be able to afford to build it til' Garage Sale Season rolls around and I can get the Materials for next to nothing.
My Truck has an extended Cab and I'm going to put a Roof Rack on it anyway, so I will do that first so that I can design the Box to fit into it properly.
It should work fine for my needs, since I only build low and slow Rockets. Atleast work well enough to test how something like what I'm doing now with the Pivoting Wings will behave. Making sure they properly "Weathervane" or whatnot.

You may not even need it...

I remember as a kid flying my hand out the window while my dad drove, perhaps you could have someone drive you while you experiment with the prototype...

You could vary the angle of attack and possibly realize potential problems before making a huge commitment to your design...

By flying low and slow, I believe you have stacked the odds in your favor...

I have flown several RC aircraft and experienced control flutter (usually at speeds near the end of the flight envelope)...

I think this may be a concern with free-floating fins...

I wonder if the placement of the pivot point along the cord line will have any effect on flutter?

Just thinking out load, makes me want to build a front end section and start my own experiments...

Y

Yragsivad said:

You may not even need it...

I remember as a kid flying my hand out the window while my dad drove, perhaps you could have someone drive you while you experiment with the prototype...

You could vary the angle of attack and possibly realize potential problems before making a huge commitment to your design...

By flying low and slow, I believe you have stacked the odds in your favor...

I have flown several RC aircraft and experienced control flutter (usually at speeds near the end of the flight envelope)...

I think this may be a concern with free-floating fins...

I wonder if the placement of the pivot point along the cord line will have any effect on flutter?

Just thinking out load, makes me want to build a front end section and start my own experiments...

Y

Click to expand...

Good Points.
The thing that it all boils down to in the end, is that I have begun working with the Idea, and will eventually identify the potential problems, and end up with a working model when it's all said and done.
If you are considering building a model of this Idea too, I hope you do, as pivoting Wings on Rockets would really open up a lot of new possibilities. Somebody should be working this Idea and coming up with solutions, and the more "Somebodies" that are involved in developing the Idea the better.
Tonight I made a Basswood Fin, with a Theaded Nylon Spacer instead of the Wing Nut, and placed the thing infront of the strongest Fan I have in the house. It would consistently turn to one side. I placed a regular Nose Cone into the Test Section, and got the same result.
I'm hoping that airfoiling the Wing will stop this from happening, but this is my first "Dynamic Experiment", so it is progress none the less.




I tried this again, but while holding the Fan above the Section with the Fin and whatnot vertical, and it stayed straight, and only went to one side or another as I varied the Angle of Attack, which I assume is how it is supposed to behave, so I guess if I want to Wind Tunnel this, I'll need a Vertical Wind Tunnel.

As long as its free to pivot it should be good...

Later! OL JR

Yragsivad said:

I have flown several RC aircraft and experienced control flutter (usually at speeds near the end of the flight envelope)...

Click to expand...

Did you mass-balance the flt cntl surfaces so that the moving surface's separate center-of-mass was ahead of the pivot axis?

Have you ever noticed the mass booms added to the leading edge of flt cntl surfaces on airplanes, or wondered why they are there?

powderburner said:

Did you mass-balance the flt cntl surfaces so that the moving surface's separate center-of-mass was ahead of the pivot axis?

Have you ever noticed the mass booms added to the leading edge of flt cntl surfaces on airplanes, or wondered why they are there?

Click to expand...

There are many different flight control designs; some had those features, but others did not...

In the example I used, I was referring to ailerons...

A typical fix was to monocoat the seam between the trailing edge of the wing and leading edge of the aileron...

Y

I emailed TLP about the Talos and if it was still in the "works"... His response is in blue below...

Absolutely. Still doing stability testing. Preliminary tests are good, but waiting for calm weather for more flight tests with G motors. Calm days are rare here. We are about three miles from Lake Okeechobee, with NOTHING between us and the lake. We ARE the windbreak. Getting price estimates now for a couple of parts that we are outsourcing from other suppliers. Still looking good on production. Note that it took 5 years to get the Nike Hercules the way I wanted it before it was released. The TALOS, hopefully, will be ready much sooner.

Chuck
TLP

Top,

I have begun conceptualizing my front fin section design and will begin construction as time allows...

Y

Yragsivad said:

I emailed TLP about the Talos and if it was still in the "works"... His response is in blue below...

Absolutely. Still doing stability testing. Preliminary tests are good, but waiting for calm weather for more flight tests with G motors. Calm days are rare here. We are about three miles from Lake Okeechobee, with NOTHING between us and the lake. We ARE the windbreak. Getting price estimates now for a couple of parts that we are outsourcing from other suppliers. Still looking good on production. Note that it took 5 years to get the Nike Hercules the way I wanted it before it was released. The TALOS, hopefully, will be ready much sooner.

Chuck
TLP

Top,

I have begun conceptualizing my front fin section design and will begin construction as time allows...

Y

Click to expand...

Awesome!
I had E-mailed them too but got no response. I'm sure they just got my Email address wrong or something, as I have heard from other folks that they are decent when it comes to responding to E-mails.
I just got the Coupler material I needed in the mail from cavecentral, so I can now begin building the Sustainer Section of the Rocket.
It's great that you are going to make a Pivoting Wing Concept too. I believe that the concept is worthwhile and will make Rocketry more interesting.

Yragsivad said:

There are many different flight control designs; some had those features, but others did not...

In the example I used, I was referring to ailerons...

A typical fix was to monocoat the seam between the trailing edge of the wing and leading edge of the aileron...

Click to expand...

If, by your statement that "there are many different flight control designs" you mean there are many approaches that are visually different, that is correct.

However,

Whether the ballast weight for the moving control surface is hidden internally or mounted externally on a horn or boom (where you can see it), the c.g. location is critical for avoiding flutter on moveable surfaces. You could "overpower" the inertia of the moveable surface if it is linked to a sufficiently stiff actuation device (which in turn must be backed by a sufficiently stiff structural attachment), but I doubt you have a hydraulic system in your rocket.

Without a proper design for your moveable surfaces, if the vehicle goes fast enough these moving fins will shred themselves. If you keep the flight speeds down low enough you may be OK but the surfaces can still be driven to a lesser flutter mode and can interfere with safe flight.

And this does not matter whether we are talking aileron, rudder, elevator, all-flying tail, or any other moveable surface.

I finally got a Paper Hat Cone Tip that I think looks pretty good, after trying a few.
Obviosly most of the work on the Cone will have to wait til' last, since I'll need to figure out how much I want it to weigh. I also have to extend the Shoulder another half inch. It also has all those Details to make, and I have not determined how I want to model them, though I have some good Ideas.

powderburner said:

If, by your statement that "there are many different flight control designs" you mean there are many approaches that are visually different, that is correct.

However,

Whether the ballast weight for the moving control surface is hidden internally or mounted externally on a horn or boom (where you can see it), the c.g. location is critical for avoiding flutter on moveable surfaces. You could "overpower" the inertia of the moveable surface if it is linked to a sufficiently stiff actuation device (which in turn must be backed by a sufficiently stiff structural attachment), but I doubt you have a hydraulic system in your rocket.

Without a proper design for your moveable surfaces, if the vehicle goes fast enough these moving fins will shred themselves. If you keep the flight speeds down low enough you may be OK but the surfaces can still be driven to a lesser flutter mode and can interfere with safe flight.

And this does not matter whether we are talking aileron, rudder, elevator, all-flying tail, or any other moveable surface.

Click to expand...

If the CG of the Wing was above the Pivot Point, the Wings would flip upside-down. That would be silly.

TopRamen said:

If the CG of the Wing was above the Pivot Point, the Wings would flip upside-down. That would be silly.

Click to expand...

Top is correct as that would be silly indeed...

It was an example of flutter; we are not talking about hinged surfaces here…

I found an interesting study on control surface flutter at the Society Of Allied Weight Engineers, Inc. and I believe there can be some useful information gleaned from careful study…

I will not post it here out of respect to the author, but I will post the link…

Section 2.8 talks about single plane characteristics of a missile control surface; it speaks directly to the relationship between the CG and the pivot point…

Here is the link: https://www.space-electronics.com/Literature/Control_Surfaces.pdf

Top, These control surfaces may need to be 3D printed so as to keep both sides of the surface the same making them aerodynamically static... ie (one side will not produce more lift or inertia than the other)

Your cone looks very nice...

That's an interesting paper. I use full flying surfaces on my rc rocket gliders for the most part and have yet to find a flutter scenario in my flight envelopes so far that required any mass balancing to be done. In the two cases of flutter that I did have, one was on a trailing edge delta wing elevon on a very high impulse motor(for the model weight). The other was on the entire wing that had both deflection and twist stiffness issues, and again was boosting on a much higher impulse motor than I normally had designed it for.
I'm sure for the full flying surfaces I'm just not pushing them fast enough yet to cause a flutter issue, or since they are boosting vertically they aren't experiencing sufficient orthogonal loads to cause the mass issue to start an oscillation. In most RC models that I see I don't see mass balancing done till things get up in the 1/3 scale type of aerobatic aircraft or high speed jet design.

I'm interested to see how this pans out at this scale with these surfaces with an undamped connection(no actuator connected).

Frank

Thanks for the Link Yragsivad.
I was able to make sense of most of it, and would sure love to own or have access to a Facility with those Test Fixtures, along with a Mentor to show me how to quantify the Data.
I see the point of CG being a critical factor, and understand the concerns they present in relation to the Flutter problem.
Thing is, I'm working on a much smaller scale, and from experience launching I can safely estimate that this Rocket will not be going very fast, and getting to the Point of Divergence is not likely in my opinion. These Wings are suppose to shift to eliminate some of the pressure on them, as oppose to guide or "Control" the Body of the Rocket as "Control Surfaces" are intended to. If I was working with one of those fancy Electronic Active Stabilization Units, this would be more important.
I can see your point about wanting to have the Parts 3D Printed, and I agree that that would be ideal to get the exact and proper dimensions, but alas, I don't have that option at my disposal. Niether the Printer, nor the know how to design the Parts on a Program that could then be sent to someone to be printed. Thusly, the Wings will be shaped by hand, using material that most closely resembles the profile I require.
When it is all said and done, the Rocket may very well crash and be destroyed.
The first flight will be conducted in a much bigger Field than I usually fly in, and without spectators or structures or anything that could be damaged. Heck, I'll likely never launch with Spectators, as I'm just not a "People Person". I see plenty of Videos of folks having bad flights at Sanctioned Events, and that is after an RSO or Team of RSO inspect the Models for Flight Worthiness, and WITH Spectators and Vehicles at potential risk.
Heck, this thing could even be built, and then have a CATO on the Pad, and then no knowledge would be gained and it would not even be my fault.

TopRamen "I can see your point about wanting to have the Parts 3D Printed, and I agree that that would be ideal to get the exact and proper dimensions, but alas, I don't have that option at my disposal. Niether the Printer, nor the know how to design the Parts on a Program that could then be sent to someone to be printed".

Me either, but we can dream right???

Anyway, a lot of the Info in that Paper about CG in relation to Control Surface Hinge Points is also covered in the Link I posted on the last Page about the "Bumblebee Planform", but again, it is because they are using the Wings as active control surfaces for Steering.
https://www.okieboat.com/Talos aerodynamics and control history.html
I will move forward with the current idea that the Wings will hang and pivot freely, regardless of their CG in relation to the Pivot Point.

TopRamen said:

Anyway, a lot of the Info in that Paper about CG in relation to Control Surface Hinge Points is also covered in the Link I posted on the last Page about the "Bumblebee Planform", but again, it is because they are using the Wings as active control surfaces for Steering.
https://www.okieboat.com/Talos aerodynamics and control history.html
I will move forward with the current idea that the Wings will hang and pivot freely, regardless of their CG in relation to the Pivot Point.

Click to expand...

Agreed, they are not active "control surfaces"...

More like "passive vanes" free to move so as to render them nearly absent from the vehicle...

We are on the same page as it were...

Y

Yragsivad said:

Agreed, they are not active "control surfaces"...

More like "passive vanes" free to move so as to render them nearly absent from the vehicle...

We are on the same page as it were...

Y

Click to expand...

"Passive Vanes" I LIKE IT!!! I think that is the Term I will use from now on.

TopRamen said:

"Passive Vanes" I LIKE IT!!! I think that is the Term I will use from now on.

Click to expand...

Great!!!

Now check out this picture of a typical aircraft AOA transducer...

They DO NOT flutter to my knowledge...

That is as passive as it gets...

They mearly transmit information to the pilot for early stall detection...

I think this could be the solution...

Now if you could just get those peace loving hippies to grant you "five stars"...

TopRamen said:

If the CG of the Wing was above the Pivot Point, the Wings would flip upside-down. That would be silly.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I haven't heard ANY of this stuff before; I haven't chimed in til now, but I would DEFINITELY take all that rant with a grain of salt...

The pivoting fins has been used in a lot of builds, some of which have been written up in magazine articles and stuff online, and no such problems have been reported. I wonder how much of this is jousting at windmills...

The one build I specifically recall that got my attention to the process was a python missile, which uses TWO pairs of forward canard fins and one set of rear fixed fins, making it virtually IMPOSSIBLE to make as a passively-stability model rocket any other way. The build worked and flew fine. No mention was made of any "flutter concerns" or other such issues. The only difference between that build and your proposals is that they mounted the opposing fins on a wood "axle" rotating on brass tube bearings (IIRC) going through and across the body tube in an "X" configuration. They put the parachute below it IIRC...

Later! OL JR

luke strawwalker said:

Yeah, I haven't heard ANY of this stuff before; I haven't chimed in til now, but I would DEFINITELY take all that rant with a grain of salt...

The pivoting fins has been used in a lot of builds, some of which have been written up in magazine articles and stuff online, and no such problems have been reported. I wonder how much of this is jousting at windmills...

The one build I specifically recall that got my attention to the process was a python missile, which uses TWO pairs of forward canard fins and one set of rear fixed fins, making it virtually IMPOSSIBLE to make as a passively-stability model rocket any other way. The build worked and flew fine. No mention was made of any "flutter concerns" or other such issues. The only difference between that build and your proposals is that they mounted the opposing fins on a wood "axle" rotating on brass tube bearings (IIRC) going through and across the body tube in an "X" configuration. They put the parachute below it IIRC...

Later! OL JR

Click to expand...

Yeah, someone showed me a Link to that Build. May have even been in this Thread. I had thought about having the Recovery Gear beneath an Axle, and due to wanting the highest CG possible without having to add excessive weight I opted for the Non-Axle solution. Having the "Vanes" operate independently should work fine IMO.
Thanks for mentioning that Rocket though as it does show that the Idea generally tends to work out just fine.

TopRamen said:

Yeah, someone showed me a Link to that Build. May have even been in this Thread. I had thought about having the Recovery Gear beneath an Axle, and due to wanting the highest CG possible without having to add excessive weight I opted for the Non-Axle solution. Having the "Vanes" operate independently should work fine IMO.
Thanks for mentioning that Rocket though as it does show that the Idea generally tends to work out just fine.

Click to expand...

Yep... glad to help (in any tiny way possible... )

Looking forward to seeing your progress.

Later and KUTGW! OL JR

luke strawwalker said:

Yep... glad to help (in any tiny way possible... )

Looking forward to seeing your progress.

Later and KUTGW! OL JR

Click to expand...

Actually you've been a great help in this, so thanks!
Your wise guidance and all your responses in this Thread have been most helpful and insightful.
When it flies, and is successful, I will add you to the list of folks that can take Credit for this Build.
Just your interest has helped keep the Thread going, and that's what inspires me to keep building.
If nobody is interested in the "How, Why and History" of what I'm building then I migh aswell buy a RTF Kit.
Folks like yourself here on the Forum really help me expand my "Modeling Horizons".
It's great when you all can see my progression as a Modeler and have faith in and get behind a project like this.