What makes a "real" L1 rocket?

I recently bought a pile of Estes PSII kits at the Frys sale. I know these kits are designed for F And G motors and are in the MPR range of rockets. I also know that many people have built and flown these kits for L1 cents. Some of the feedback I've heard in threads about this has been in the spirit of, "Don't just build a rocket to cert with. Build a REAL L1 rocket."

So what is a REAL L1 rocket? What features do you think characterize an L1 rocket? What are some examples?

I got all the PSII kits for about 20 bucks each. Would it make more sense to try to build a PSII kit that I got for $20 as an L1 cert rocket? Or should I go for a "real" L1 rocket, even if that means an expensive kit? If a PSII kit is the answer, which one (I have them all)? If a real L1 rocket is the answer, what kit do you recommend?

don't know if there is any specific item or detail that separates them...however, the flight characteristics might be a clew. I would define an L1 bird as one who can fly the range of the L1 motors, say 700' - 1000' on a small H to 3500' plus on a full I w/o problems. as to which rocket works for you, well I used a MadCow 4" patriot (not FG) for my cert(H123) and have since flown it on an I225, am reasonably sure that it could handle a J350 but would for me be an upper limit. HTH
Rex

An L1 rocket is, by definition, one that you can safely fly and recover on a motor between 161 and 640 Ns. I don't care if a baby H is the largest motor this rocket ever flies on.

There are people in this hobby, as there are in other hobbies, who remember how hard things were for them when they were just starting out, uphill both ways and all that. There are people in this hobby, as there are in other hobbies, who feel that more people joining their exclusive status makes the status less exclusive. There are also people in this hobby, as in other hobbies, who want to haze newcomers as a kind of rite of passage.

Ari (an L3).

Generally speaking, a rocket which will fly on a range of L1 motors, from the Big Gs, up to Is. When I imagine such a rocket, it is a 3" or 4" rocket with a 38mm engine mount. something like the Loc iV or the Binder Design Excel, or the Madcow Super DX3. Many similar sized kits are offered with 54 MM instead, do not be afraid of those like I was, you can always adapt down.

If you go with a cardboard/plywood L1 rocket, it is a good transition from LPR/MPR to HPR.

I certed with a slightly modified Aerotech G force. Since it is 29 mm there just were not too many more motors i could fly it with. Looking back, Were I do do it again, I would have gone with one of the rockets listed above. In fact, I made the same mistake with my L2, I used the Excel which is more of a L1 rocket, I stuffed a J into it for my cert flight, but since it was a 38 MM I could not fly it with Ks or Ls. If you decide to go L2, you definitely want a 54mm engine mount.

One of the guys in our group used the Levitation to get his L1. He used an H135W-14A 29 mm DMS to fly it. It required him to use epoxy to glue everything together, and some additional nose weight. It flew great, over 2000 feet if I remember right.

Andrew

I think.people give out there options way to much . Fly what you like , the estes way to L1 is cheap for $20.00 and will be up there . Any one of levels can be had one many rockets . Would I try a L2 on a estes MDRM . no you would have to put a bigger mount in . And a L3 rocket does not have to cost a grand for the kit . Don't let people fool you .

iter said:

An L1 rocket is, by definition, one that you can safely fly and recover on a motor between 161 and 640 Ns. I don't care if a baby H is the largest motor this rocket ever flies on.

There are people in this hobby, as there are in other hobbies, who remember how hard things were for them when they were just starting out, uphill both ways and all that. There are people in this hobby, as there are in other hobbies, who feel that more people joining their exclusive status makes the status less exclusive. There are also people in this hobby, as in other hobbies, who want to haze newcomers as a kind of rite of passage.

Ari (an L3).

Click to expand...

DING DING DING!!! We have the winning answer! This coming from a guy who has experienced some of that sort of nonsense - and is still hanging around. I respect that.

The real answer as others have stated is a rocket that can handle flights on a H or I within the NAR and/or TRA certification guidelines. Anything more than that is just opinion.

-Dave

I personally went with a Madcow Aerobee 150a for my level 1 cert. It is a 3 inch rocket, with a 38mm motor mount, weighs just over 3 lbs and is nice and tall. It flew beautifully. The kit, parachute and motor retainer cost me all total just over $100.00. The 38mm motor mount gives me many choices for motors. I certified on an H123 motor. Those HPR motors really pack a punch. Plus the Aerobee 150a kit has a ready made electronics bay, so you can add some electronics now or later on.

I had considered trying to certify with the Estes Leviathan, because it looked to be a good draggy rocket. I changed my mind, because to qualify for a level 1 cert you have to get your rocket back and it has to be in good enough shape to fly again. I figured on a windy day, I may launch that Leviathan and never get it back. Then I'm out a rocket and motor hardware. That Leviathan weighs right at a pound or less. You get enough height under that rocket and it will probably float like a kite. None of the other PS II kits look like good candidates to me. That Leviathan flies great on a G64.

David

Can an Estes PSII rocket other than a Leviathan work for L1? Depends on how you build them. I have a Ventris that weighs in 25 ounces when loaded with a baby H. Of course, I beefed it up with epoxy, fiberglassed fins, etc... when building. It can easily handle a baby H and only gets 2300 ft on an H165. But that is where the difference lies. If you build it with an H in mind and you build it with the techniques that HPR requires for successful launches and recovery it is an L1 rocket. Isn't the point of certification to show that you have the building skills and knowledge required to safely launch H and I motors? In my mind, it shows greater building skill to take a kit designed for F & G and build it so that it can withstand an H than to build a kit that was designed for H in the first place. Either way, if you have to have the skills to make it work, then you have the skills to earn an L1.

Personally, I went with a 3" Cyclotron and modified it some for my L1. However, as Dave can tell you, I had a lot of anxiety going into my L1 cert flight. Although my Ventris could L1 certify, my nerves were too fried to do anything that small and risky on my L1. Now, I realistically know that my Ventris would have done the job and had done it well; however, I probably still would pull out something bigger if I had only 1 shot to do it again.

Ok this is my opinion, I would not do a cert on a kit . Now mod or scratch build that's for me . It may not be for you and that's ok . Do what works for you and is safe .

The problem with a question like this is that you get a lot of people saying THIS IS HOW YOU ROCKET.

Follow the path that you want to take in the hobby. Don't know exactly what kind of rocket you want in the H-I-J range yet? Go ahead and cert in that PS2 kit and explore the world of high power in smaller steps. Go ahead and cert with a bigger kit if you want to get a feel for the structural requirements of a rocket in this range before scratch-building one. Follow your own path in the hobby and you'll have more fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

wfcook said:

The problem with a question like this is that you get a lot of people saying THIS IS HOW YOU ROCKET.

Follow the path that you want to take in the hobby. Don't know exactly what kind of rocket you want in the H-I-J range yet? Go ahead and cert in that PS2 kit and explore the world of high power in smaller steps. Go ahead and cert with a bigger kit if you want to get a feel for the structural requirements of a rocket in this range before scratch-building one. Follow your own path in the hobby and you'll have more fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

Click to expand...

That sums it up .

I understand the term, a rocket that can be fully used at its cert level. OTOH there could be a rocket you really like whose range overlaps levels, nothing wrong with that. The PSII rockets barely overlap, but I think the Leviathan is big enough to see with a little more than a G80T. Also large MPRs are lightly built so there is a lot of room to add materials. I'm not a believer in getting a cert as a kind of merit badge, so I don't see going higher than the rocket wants. I have a 5", 1.5 pound rocket that's never had more than a G79 or G64, now that wants something bigger.

There is also a motor aspect at L1, other than the G80 MPR motors top out about 120 N-s. In maximum G's, G138 requires cert, G75 requires a baby H case. However 29 mm will limit against larger motors unless your rocket is strong as well as big and heavy enough, because the I's are all high thrust.

wfcook said:

THIS IS HOW YOU ROCKET

Click to expand...

HEY that's my line.


Sent from my iPhone using TopRamens Rocketry Forum App

My Definition of a "Real Level 1 Rocket" is

A rocket that can fly on a total installed impulse of between 160.1 and 640.0 Ns
If you fly a staged or clustered rocket one of the motors are either an H or I class motor and the total stills falls in to the above range.
The rocket is of a design you like - either a kit, kitbash, mod-roc, oddroc, or scratch built.

For certification purposes only - uses active recovery, either a streamer or parachute.

If you want the rocket can fly on motors smaller than or even larger than an H or I motor.

The thing is to build and fly something you want, if you like high and fast build one that goes high and fast; if you like low and slow build that.

The key is to enjoy the hobby, the people and fly rockets.

Do whatever is safe, is within the rules/law and makes you happy.

When I got my L1 I used a Hawk Mountain Transonic. It was new on the market at the time. I got all kinds of crap for using a fiberglass rocket with an ACME fin can (also new on the market). Then I got my L2 on an LOC Warlok. It is just a 7.5" Leviathan. It doesn't even have TTW fins. I built it stock and didn't even glass it. People gave me crap because I used a new to the market J350 and it wasn't a "real" L2 motor. Anyone see a theme yet? People will give you crap anytime you use items that are new and easier than the old way. Once you have your L1 nobody will care what you're flying at all.

Sent from my Tegra Note 7

I'd say, fly it on a G80. If you can successfully recover it, then maybe you can try it on an H. Go with the smallest H you can buy at your launch.

Be prepared that if it is not epoxied, or the fins don't look like they can handle L1 G-force, then the RSO may decline to certify you. Make sure your nose cone is secure (you should be able to lift the rocket by the nose cone without the airframe falling out).

As other have said: a real level 1 rocket is one you can fly within the L1 range of motors. But I would add, also one that your RSO will allow you to certify with.

Oh, one other thing. You probably already know this, but when you build the Leviathan, leave out the motor block. The motor block limits your motor tube to a two grain casing. I don't think you can get an H motor in a two-grain. Make sure the motor tube is long enough to accommodate a three-grain, and leave out the motor block.

There is a YouTube video I have seen of someone attempting L1 cert on a Leviathan. So it can be done, obviously.

DAllen said:

HEY that's my line.


Sent from my iPhone using TopRamens Rocketry Forum App

Click to expand...

Yes, I couldn't remember who I stole it from


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

wfcook said:

Yes, I couldn't remember who I stole it from


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

Click to expand...

I expect royalty payments daggumit.


Sent from my iPhone using TopRamens Rocketry Forum App

Not to be a rocket snob, but my definition of a "real" level 1 rocket is one that teaches you the skills you need to set you up for the next level.

Sure, you can build an Aerotech G-Force, skip the motor block so you can use "H" motors in it. You can easily get your L1 cert with that.

My problem with that approach is that it is a dead end. Aerotech doesn't make any "snap together" kits capable of L2. Therefore, you are at a steep learning curve going forward. If you had chosen something like a LOC-IV for your L1 cert, you would have learned about tacking fins, fin fillets, rail buttons - basically covering all the bases. That knowledge carries directly over into bigger rockets, and you can even add an avionics bay and payload section to a LOC-IV if you want. I've seen it done.

A real L1 rocket is one you can fly on an H or I motor that doesn't reside solely in your mind.

If it flies on an H, it's an L1. Pretty simple. The idea that your cert rocket must handle the largest motor of that class is nonsense. It seems to bank on the idea people build few or one rocket. And we know that's not the case.

Take a leviathan, use wood glue and toss a baby H in it. It's a valid L1.

neond7 said:

Not to be a rocket snob, but my definition of a "real" level 1 rocket is one that teaches you the skills you need to set you up for the next level.

Sure, you can build an Aerotech G-Force, skip the motor block so you can use "H" motors in it. You can easily get your L1 cert with that.

My problem with that approach is that it is a dead end. Aerotech doesn't make any "snap together" kits capable of L2. Therefore, you are at a steep learning curve going forward. If you had chosen something like a LOC-IV for your L1 cert, you would have learned about tacking fins, fin fillets, rail buttons - basically covering all the bases. That knowledge carries directly over into bigger rockets, and you can even add an avionics bay and payload section to a LOC-IV if you want. I've seen it done.

Click to expand...

All good, assuming he wants to go to Level 2. He may just be a mid-power builder who'd like to get that credential in his .sig. Everyone has different goals.

I want to go to Level 2, and I will, but I got my Level 1 on a Sumo with 1/4" lugs. Now that I have that under my belt, I feel freer to start learning DD and customizing at my own pace.

wfcook said:

The problem with a question like this is that you get a lot of people saying THIS IS HOW YOU ROCKET.

Follow the path that you want to take in the hobby. Don't know exactly what kind of rocket you want in the H-I-J range yet? Go ahead and cert in that PS2 kit and explore the world of high power in smaller steps. Go ahead and cert with a bigger kit if you want to get a feel for the structural requirements of a rocket in this range before scratch-building one. Follow your own path in the hobby and you'll have more fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

Click to expand...

+1.

I see where others are coming from about a “real L1” rocket. The Estes PII series are really mid power rockets with the capability of low-end high power.

I’ll echo other’s statements - it’s your hobby, your money, and your rockets. Whatever makes you happy.

Nowadays, you can buy 29mm single use, lower impulse Aerotech H motors. Don’t even need to buy a casing. If someone had told me a year ago I could have L1’d for less than $75 including the motor with little risk if the rocket gods ate it, I’d have done it in a heartbeat.

For whatever it’s worth, I used a Madcow Patriot for my L1. After certifying, I knew I could build a (kit) rocket including nose weight for stability, drill a delay correctly and get the motor into a casing. Not like any of those tasks are difficult, but they all have to be done correctly. The resulting success gave me a boost of confidence to keep going. I will say the pucker factor’s much higher, seeing that much money and labor hours going up the first time.

Once you have your L1, you’ll have many more options on purchasing motors, which gives you a lot more options for rockets, which again gives you a lot more options for even bigger engines. Next thing you know you’re wallet’s empty and you reek of burnt rocket fuel and black powder.

Have fun!

Fly what you like. I love low and slow, seeing the whole flight. I would not have done my personal one on a PSII kit. That is solely my own preference, there is no reason you can't cert on an Estes PSII kits, if built strong. Someone at our club flew his MDRM on a CTI G125, I think that would fly fine on most any 29mm H motor. My .02 would be a heavier rocket, cardboard to ease the transition to HPR, flying on an H motor. Ideally, IMHO,built with wood glue, reinforced with epoxy. I think it would be advantageous, depending on where you fly, to keep it relatively low, but capable of being test flown on a G motor. 3"-4", maybe. Again, fly what you like. If your idea of fun is a 38mm rocket on an I1299, cert on that! One thing I would recommend regardless of rocket is to have the fin tips not hang behind the bottom of the rocket. that way, it lands on the motor retainer or BT, instead of the fins. If a fillet cracks, or a fin chips you might not get the cert. I did Jr L1, so this wasn't an issue, but I would recommend single deploy. there are less things that can go wrong. The most important thing is built strong, fly what you like, and keep it safe.
This is all just my opinion (aside from the safety factor). Fly what makes you happy!!


Nate

The thing is that the only difference between a LOC L1 kit and a Leviathan is the thickness of the tubes. The Leviathan has TTW fins, you can epoxy them in, add fillets, upgrade the shock cord and it's no different than a LOC NORAD or Caliber ISP in construction. Plenty of guys have gotten their L1 with those.

I do agree that you should try to learn something with your L1. I also don't think a G-Force would make a good L1 kit. L1 is a stepping stone into H and I motors. Once you have crossed over there is plenty of time to build a few L1 capable kits and learn more along the way. Some guys might just want to use the HP-G138T or HP-G75M motors and need an L1 to buy them.

IMHO, talk to your RSO or club president and ask them what they think BEFORE you build it. Explain to him how you plan to build it and what you intend to fly it on. You also need to ask yourself if this is a stepping stone into flying H and I motors or if it's just something you want to check off your bucket list. Both answers are acceptable.

Another thing to keep in mind is that just because you CAN fly it on an H will you be able to recover it at your field? Do you like LONG hikes in the sun? I loved the Warlok I had because you could put a J motor in it and still see it the entire flight. It was also light enough to fly on an H on a really small field.

neond7 said:

Not to be a rocket snob, but my definition of a "real" level 1 rocket is one that teaches you the skills you need to set you up for the next level.

Sure, you can build an Aerotech G-Force, skip the motor block so you can use "H" motors in it. You can easily get your L1 cert with that.

My problem with that approach is that it is a dead end. Aerotech doesn't make any "snap together" kits capable of L2. Therefore, you are at a steep learning curve going forward. If you had chosen something like a LOC-IV for your L1 cert, you would have learned about tacking fins, fin fillets, rail buttons - basically covering all the bases. That knowledge carries directly over into bigger rockets, and you can even add an avionics bay and payload section to a LOC-IV if you want. I've seen it done.

Click to expand...

Whoa, you guys are telling me that as a silly odd roc LPR/MPR flyer I could have got my Level One by just filling out a form and sticking a baby H in the back of my stock built Leviathan?

That I didn’t have to run laps around the range singing “I don’t know but I’ve been told, VMAX propellant is mighty BOLD! – Sound off – Bring her on down – 4-3-2-1- FOUR FINS- NOSE CONE!”

That I didn’t have to repeatedly watch the video entitled “Wood Glue is for Wussies!”

That I didn’t have to commit the High Power Handbook to memory during the Pre-Certification Pledge Period.

That I didn’t have to climb to the top of the outhouse and have the Certified guy say “You might ask yourself why all your heavy odd roc nose cones are in that bucket you are holding. You might again wonder why this bucket is tied by a length of Kevlar to your *****. Well, I will tell you why, it is all about TRUST!”

That I didn’t have to make that odd roc Pledge Paddle and face the Board of Inquiry where my only answers could be YES SIR, NO SIR and THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!

That I didn’t have to be blindfolded and guzzle the Jimmy Jones HI PO Kool Aid.

That I didn’t have to demonstrate Engineering and Academic proficiency by acing standardized tests in computer simulation while correctly answering the question: What is a REAL LEVEL ONE CERTIFICATION ROCKET: Answer: A true 4FNC high power rocket built of composite materials with an Av Bay, high grade recovery gear, cool motor retention and will safely fly on the largest I motor available. At a minimum it should have a high gloss black finish with air brushed Skeletons smoking and playing poker.

That I didn’t have to toss all my silly LPR/MPR airplane rockets through the Ring of Fire.

That I didn’t have to wrestle the biggest high power motor casing all covered in Vaseline.

That I didn’t have to prove the stability of an odd roc by doing the Barrowman’s by hand, only with pencil, paper and a slide rule.

That I didn’t have to pledge that my motors would no longer come in a box labeled TOY PROPELLANT. Rather they would come only in large crates labeled TOP SECRET. FROM THIOKOL TO NASA.

That I didn’t have to go through the pinning ceremony shouting “THE MOTOR MAKES THE MAN,” or being shouted at “GET THE LEVEL THREE A FRESH BEER!”

That I didn’t have to solemnly swear the coolest thing in rocketry is to launch a nonmetal rocket low in the atmosphere on a motor called three seconds of Hades.

A Leviathan or Ventris built stock (leave out the thrust ring) with wood glue and epoxy for the plastic motor retainer wil fly great on a baby H if you have the room. Therefore they are entirely appropriate for L1 attempts. And fun to modify and mess around with. I like the Ventris a lot. I have the parts to build a 2x upscale. Someday I will build it. 96" of rocket goodness.