What makes a "real" L1 rocket?

uh-whut Troj says!

The last Level One cert I saw was a young and hip dude flying a nekkid Initiator on an H-410. Like a magic Man, now you see me, now you don't. AWESOME. It took about an hour to recover and the chicks would have loved it if any chicks had been there.

My L1 was my bluetube Optima. came in at about 40oz dry. 2.56" tube. Flies nicely on F50-G80's from 500-1000 feet. On small H's around 1200-1500, H250G put it around 1800'.

It still makes me happy.

troj said:

1) The rocket makes you happy
2) The rocket complies with the rules for the organization under which you're certifying
3) The rocket makes you happy
4) The rocket flies and recovers safely
5) The rocket makes you happy

In my world, it's pretty easy. I've signed off on certs (NAR and Tripoli) on rockets of all sorts of shapes and sizes.

-Kevin

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So many rules... i really just want to do what makes me happy.

You should really look into doing what makes you happy. Unhappiness is over rated.

grouch said:

You should really look into doing what makes you happy. Unhappiness is over rated.

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This is great advice from a grouch.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

So many rules... i really just want to do what makes me happy.

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Some people are just so hard to please....



-Kevin

Simpler answer than my first: There's F-G (mostly) rockets, there's H-I rockets, even J-K rockets, why wouldn't there be G-H rockets and I-J rockets?

Re: skills, you can learn more building an A powered rocket than is REQUIRED to certify.

I'm thinking I will not have a chance to build an L1 rocket by the next local HPR launch on April 5. It's not something I want to rush through. I'm planning to go to the launch, and I'll spend some time checking out the HPR rockets, and maybe look around for some of the models mentioned in the thread.

Earlier I was leaning toward building the MDRM, because I already have the kit, it would work for the cert, and I could still fly it at my LPR/MPR field. Honestly though, it is not as appealing to me as other kits that would work for the cert and could also be flown at my LPR/MPR field. Considering that I have limited time budget for building rockets and space budget for storing rockets, it probably makes more sense to find something I really like a lot. I got the MDRM because it was such a good deal, but it's not my favorite design.

bill_s said:

Simpler answer than my first: There's F-G (mostly) rockets, there's H-I rockets, even J-K rockets, why wouldn't there be G-H rockets and I-J rockets?

Re: skills, you can learn more building an A powered rocket than is REQUIRED to certify.

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This makes complete sense to me. I'm looking for a G-H rocket. And I agree about the skills --- I actually found it easier to build the Leviathan than some smaller rockets, because the parts are bigger and also less fragile. One of the things that appeals to me about 4" and larger airframes is that I would be able to get my hand down inside it.

Daddyisabar said:

The last Level One cert I saw was a young and hip dude flying a nekkid Initiator on an H-410. Like a magic Man, now you see me, now you don't. AWESOME. It took about an hour to recover and the chicks would have loved it if any chicks had been there.

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Too bad about the lack of chicks. Maybe he can get some Likes on Facebook.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I'm more a fan of low and slow flights, not so much fast and high. I don't like losing sight of my rockets, and with my eyes, it's easy to do. Also, I enjoy clearly seeing the ejection and deployment. So I would want a design that kept flights on at least some H motors below 1000 feet or even lower.

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The Madcow Super DX3 (paper and wood version) on your list would fit that bill nicely, and is a straightforward intro to the bigger rocket world - not a complicated build at all. I've flown it single deploy on L1 class H motors to around 1100', and it served me well as my L1 cert rocket on an H. I converted it to dual deploy and flew it several times on I170 motors to make sure I had the hang of the DD config. Then flew it on a J285 with DD for L2 cert. It is a solid rocket and a straight and true flier.

[h=1]What makes a "real" L1 rocket?

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hmm...since most people have covered the definition of "L1 rocket", I will take a stab at the "real" in the question.

A real level 1 rocket is one that you can touch, see and smell (post flight), you cannot gain your L1 with a perfect RockSim or OpenRocket flight, it has to be an actual event.


That aside, it sometimes also is NOT the one that you research, purchase, build, and paint. Nooo... After you build and paint that Binder Excel DD that you bought specifically for you L1, you then go into Toys R Us and see that RalphCo Crayon Bank!!

ThirstyBarbarian said:

This makes complete sense to me. I'm looking for a G-H rocket. And I agree about the skills --- I actually found it easier to build the Leviathan than some smaller rockets, because the parts are bigger and also less fragile. One of the things that appeals to me about 4" and larger airframes is that I would be able to get my hand down inside it.

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This is a good thing to consider. My cert. rocket was 4", and I can easily reach down to attach my recovery gear. Compare that with my Aerotech Astrobee D (2.6") which I had to come up with a complex shock cord mounting system for. The other nice part of that is you can make your shock cord completely removable. take it out of that rocket, and plop it into the next rocket of a similar size! Also, should something go wrong, a 4" tube is a lot easier to do internal repairs on. It also helps when mounting blocks to screw rail buttons into- easier to see, manipulate, and line up.

Nate

Salvage-1 said:

[/h]
A real level 1 rocket is one that you can touch, see and smell (post flight), you cannot gain your L1 with a perfect RockSim or OpenRocket flight, it has to be an actual event.

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Very good observation. There was a rash of this a while back, seems to be gone now.

In my eyes a real L1 rocket is what YOU want to fly. If you wand a small diameter high-flying kit, go ahead.

Anything that qualifies per the current rules.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

KurtH said:

Generally speaking, a rocket which will fly on a range of L1 motors, from the Big Gs, up to Is. When I imagine such a rocket, it is a 3" or 4" rocket with a 38mm engine mount. something like the Loc iV or the Binder Design Excel, or the Madcow Super DX3. Many similar sized kits are offered with 54 MM instead, do not be afraid of those like I was, you can always adapt down.

If you go with a cardboard/plywood L1 rocket, it is a good transition from LPR/MPR to HPR.

I certed with a slightly modified Aerotech G force. Since it is 29 mm there just were not too many more motors i could fly it with. Looking back, Were I do do it again, I would have gone with one of the rockets listed above. In fact, I made the same mistake with my L2, I used the Excel which is more of a L1 rocket, I stuffed a J into it for my cert flight, but since it was a 38 MM I could not fly it with Ks or Ls. If you decide to go L2, you definitely want a 54mm engine mount.

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I like the LOC IV. I think that would work well for me because it looks like it could be flown on G motors below 1,000 feet, but would work well for HPR too. One issue I see is that the fins seem a bit thin. My LPR/MPR field lands on concrete. Will 1/8" ply hold up? I already have some damage to my Leviathan's fins from one landing on concrete.

I like the LOC IVs, too. Good little rocket. As far as the fins... well... I think you pretty much answered, based upon your own experience. The 1/8" works well enough most of the time, but if I, personally, were landing on concrete a fair amount of time, I'd look into either slowing the descent rate and/or beefing up the fins with a bit of 'glass or possibly re-cutting out of 1/4" birch... keeping in mind that modification (particularly aft-end modification) will affect performance.


Later!

--Coop

Rex R said:

don't know if there is any specific item or detail that separates them...however, the flight characteristics might be a clew. I would define an L1 bird as one who can fly the range of the L1 motors, say 700' - 1000' on a small H to 3500' plus on a full I w/o problems. as to which rocket works for you, well I used a MadCow 4" patriot (not FG) for my cert(H123) and have since flown it on an I225, am reasonably sure that it could handle a J350 but would for me be an upper limit. HTH
Rex

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The MadCow Patriot looks like a really nice rocket, and more robust than the LOC IV. It is right at a cutoff point for weight that I'd like to keep under. I'll have to think that through. The other nice thing is that the picture on the MadCow site shows the rocket being held by a cute but down-to-earth rocket hottie.

KurtH said:

...something like the Loc iV or the Binder Design Excel, or the Madcow Super DX3.

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Checked out Binder Design Excell. This one looks really nice. The 3/16" fins would be a bit more robust than the LOC IV's 1/8" for concrete ladings. And the 36 oz is below the weight cutoff i'd like to keep under.

And the Madcow Super DX3 is also nice! That one is right at the weight cutoff, so I need to think about that.

Astronot said:

I figured on a windy day, I may launch that Leviathan and never get it back.

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I'm worried about that too.

Bat-mite said:

Oh, one other thing. You probably already know this, but when you build the Leviathan, leave out the motor block.

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Unfortunately, I put the motor block in the one I have already built. I just finished the rocket, but I built the motor mount a few months ago when there was all kinds of excitement over the new Estes 29 mm BP motors, and I wanted be able to use them in the Leviathan. Now I'm too worried about crashing due to an under-powered motor to try it, so I wish I had left the block out. Oh, well. It'll still fly great up to G motors which will fit, and I have a second Leviathan kit that I can build if I decide to.

ChrisAttebery said:

When I got my L1 I used a Hawk Mountain Transonic. It was new on the market at the time. I got all kinds of crap for using a fiberglass rocket with an ACME fin can (also new on the market). Then I got my L2 on an LOC Warlok. It is just a 7.5" Leviathan. It doesn't even have TTW fins. I built it stock and didn't even glass it. People gave me crap because I used a new to the market J350 and it wasn't a "real" L2 motor. Anyone see a theme yet? People will give you crap anytime you use items that are new and easier than the old way. Once you have your L1 nobody will care what you're flying at all.

Sent from my Tegra Note 7

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Wow, that Transonic looks fast! The Warlock looks fun --- I like fat rockets. It kind of reminds me of a monster upscale Big Daddy. According to the website, it now has TTW fins.

To me a L1 rocket is one that demonstrates the fliers skill in the things required to make a safe high power flight:

1) A familiarity with rocket stability

2) Use of stronger materials and techniques (thru the wall fins, etc)

3) A recovery system that is robust enough for the task and protected from ejection charge damage.

4) Positive motor retention (or a demonstrated skill in friction fitting)

5) An awareness of the mass/speed/inertial issues involved in high power flight.

The rocket can be any one that pleases the flier. It is a much about the flier as it is the rocket.

We all have opinions on what a "real" L1 rocket is. To me, it's is a 38mm MMT that can fly baby H to full I motors. The real questions is, do you want a "real" L1 rocket?

I had flown two 29mm rockets for four years on Hobbyline G motors when both of them could have handled a 29mm I motor and easily gotten me my L1. I had a goal for my L1 cert and that was to learn as much about HPR rockets as I could, so I spent a year designing and scratch building a DD rocket for my L1 cert. The day I got my cert, I put 29mm HPR motors in those other two rockets and flew them also. I did fly those two rockets with MPR motors after that, but the cert rocket had 8 - 10 flights on I motors before I stepped down and put an H motor in it. I liked the larger I motors and with DD, I could fly them on our field.

That is what it really boils down to, what do you want to fly after you get your L1 cert? Are you itching to fly H and I motors? If so, then build a 38mm MMT rocket so you can do that. If you will be satisfied with an occasional high altitude H flight when the weather is right, then stick with the light weight 29mm MMT rockets like the Estes Pro series. You may not want a "real" L1 rocket. It is all about what you want to fly and any rocket that can do that is a "real" rocket!

ThirstyBarbarian said:

Are those things in conflict? A kit that can handle H and I motors, will fly low and slow on H motors, but can still be flown on G motors? If anyone can recommend a kit that would do all of this, please let me know.

Those are my thoughts so far on the "real" L1 rocket. But I also agree with those who posted that the certification rocket does not actually need to be a "real" L1 rocket as defined above. It just needs to be acceptable to the RSO, and fly succesfully on an H motor and be recovered in shape to fly again. And because I have far more opportunity to fly at my LPR/MPR club launches, and I have this stack of PSII kits, I'm leaning toward building one of these to more robust standards and using that to certify. That way I'd have a rocket I know I can fly monthly, and once or twice a year, I can let her rip! The only problem I see with that plan is that none of these kits are likely to be low and slow on even a baby H.

Would it be kind of cheeky to certify on a MDRM I got on closout for $25 and an aerotech single use H for $30? If so, don't worry. If I get certified, you can be sure I'll eventually build a real L1 rocket and get into reloadable motors.

Thanks again.

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An Estes MDRM, built with wood glue, will fly fine on a G, does about 1000' on an H165 Redline, and handles an I200 just fine.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

Are those things in conflict? A kit that can handle H and I motors, will fly low and slow on H motors, but can still be flown on G motors? If anyone can recommend a kit that would do all of this, please let me know.

Those are my thoughts so far on the "real" L1 rocket. But I also agree with those who posted that the certification rocket does not actually need to be a "real" L1 rocket as defined above. It just needs to be acceptable to the RSO, and fly succesfully on an H motor and be recovered in shape to fly again. And because I have far more opportunity to fly at my LPR/MPR club launches, and I have this stack of PSII kits, I'm leaning toward building one of these to more robust standards and using that to certify. That way I'd have a rocket I know I can fly monthly, and once or twice a year, I can let her rip! The only problem I see with that plan is that none of these kits are likely to be low and slow on even a baby H.

Thanks again.

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Darkstar Jr. It can handle anything you put in it (Jim Scarpine said it could take a J825 if I had a tracker in it... )

Of course, fly it in short mode and you can put G's in it. It flies relatively low on H's. (H178 put it up about 1200 feet, but I built mine like an antitank round...)



Matt

ThirstyBarbarian said:

Earlier I was leaning toward building the MDRM, because I already have the kit, it would work for the cert, and I could still fly it at my LPR/MPR field. Honestly though, it is not as appealing to me as other kits that would work for the cert and could also be flown at my LPR/MPR field. Considering that I have limited time budget for building rockets and space budget for storing rockets, it probably makes more sense to find something I really like a lot. I got the MDRM because it was such a good deal, but it's not my favorite design.

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And this is important, since you only certify L1 once (usually), it's nice to have something that really trips your trigger. I spent probably a year planning the perfect L1 for me (which ended up being an upscale of my favorite 70's Estes design), while continuing to fly LPR/MPR. Actually built two very different L1 capable birds, before deciding which one I should cert on, both of which could fly fine on G motors. Had the MDRM kit existed back then, it would have been on my short list for L1.

dpower said:

And this is important, since you only certify L1 once (usually), it's nice to have something that really trips your trigger. I spent probably a year planning the perfect L1 for me (which ended up being an upscale of my favorite 70's Estes design), while continuing to fly LPR/MPR. Actually built two very different L1 capable birds, before deciding which one I should cert on, both of which could fly fine on G motors. Had the MDRM kit existed back then, it would have been on my short list for L1.

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YOCO!!!

(You only cert once)






(Unless you are Kevin Trojanowski, in which case you are special and have to attempt the L3 cert about 40 bajillion times... )