Affordable, legal alternatives to BP for ejection charges?

Hi, all. So far, from what I gather, the alternatives for doing BP ejection charges are:

1. Buy BP from a gun store and lie about having a muzzle loader.
2. Buy a cheap old muzzle loader and buy BP from a gun store and tell the truth about having a muzzle loader.
3. Buy BP from a gun store and get a LEUP.

So, supposing I had an aversion to lying, and didn't want to buy a muzzle loader, and didn't want to pay for a LEUP, are there any legal, affordable alternatives to BP that people are using?

I saw that Apogee has some kind of CO2 ejection, but it looks rediculously expensive. Thanks!

must be a MD thing, cause there is no need to own anything..

You can get the Aerotech Electronic Forward Closure and ejection charge kits from https://www.valuerockets.com/product_details.aspx?pid=14&itemid=67

Walk into the store, ask for a pound of 4F, and tell them it is for separation charges. You can buy and store up to 50lb without needing any paperwork.

If you're just moving the included BP from your reload to your ejection canisters, you're legal. If you need more than that, borrow from others at the field, or do what I do, fly clusters! Always lots of extra BP to make DD charges.
-Ken

WillMarchant said:

You can get the Aerotech Electronic Forward Closure and ejection charge kits from https://www.valuerockets.com/product_details.aspx?pid=14&itemid=67

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that's seems like a good deal 7$ for 16.8 grams of BP when you only use about 1 gram for a charge.that is a enough for 16 launches or 8 launches for dual deploy. Even better if you are using an cable cutter. technically speaking you could make your own.

XrayLizard said:

must be a MD thing, cause there is no need to own anything..

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Must be.

Note to self: Maryland Sucks.

conman13 said:

that's seems like a good deal 7$ for 16.8 grams of BP when you only use about 1 gram for a charge.that is a enough for 16 launches or 8 launches for dual deploy. Even better if you are using an cable cutter. technically speaking you could make your own.

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That sounds like a horrible deal Go to a gun store and pick up a 1 lb can (454) grams approx $15

The federal regulations only allow possession, transport, use, etc. of BP for use in antique weapons. All Of the above-cited exemption, yearly allowances, etc do not apply in rocketry. This is not a Maryland thing, although I am not necessarily defending the regulatory environment in Maryland.

Note that the ATF has recently clarified it's position on BP substitutes and they treat them exactly the same as BP.


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g zilla said:

That sounds like a horrible deal Go to a gun store and pick up a 1 lb can (454) grams approx $15

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yes but not when there are no gun stores near you or any stores that carry black powder and you don't want to pay the hazmat fees. not to start up a large argument but I have made my own and it worked just as well if not better the store bought black powder.

wfcook said:

Note that the ATF has recently clarified it's position on BP substitutes and they treat them exactly the same as BP.

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Do you have a reference / link for that?

https://www.atf.gov/files/press/releases/2009/07/071709-openletter-fel-ammonium-perchlorate.pdf

Tony

tfish said:

https://www.atf.gov/files/press/releases/2009/07/071709-openletter-fel-ammonium-perchlorate.pdf

Tony

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That's the letter removing APCP from the explosives list after we won the lawsuit. The new regulation of BP substitutes was, IIRC, last year.

If you are going to Red Glare? Might I suggest you ask around there. Try Robert at AMW sometimes he has a can or 2.

I am sure you will have much better results at a launch, than in an open forum.

If you need some just to fly there, I will be happy to give you some for your charges. PM me for a meet.

Right Wing Wacko said:

Do you have a reference / link for that?

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Sadly, yes. The 2013 List of Explosive Materials (published Oct 28, 2013) contains the collowing statement in the summary (first paragraph of the document):

The Department further seeks to clarify that ‘‘black powder substitutes’’ are explosives; and have, therefore, added this term to the List of Explosive Materials.

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Please note that I am not running around the field screaming that everyone needs to stop. Quite the opposite. I tend to favor passive resistance in this case. But the OP should make his own decisions based on accurate information. Simply carrying a muzzle-loader doesn't do it. Technically, as soon as the BP goes into a rocket, it is a violation. In order for this to be a big deal, an ATF guy has to get a burr up his a** about it, and my guess (and fervent hope) is that this would only come into play as something they can tack on if they are already into you for other things. Or better yet, never ever.

Black powder firearms are also a nice hobby. Just saying.

I hear there are folks who "loft" anvils with black powder at the Western Days celebrations.

o1d_dude said:

Black powder firearms are also a nice hobby. Just saying.

I hear there are folks who "loft" anvils with black powder at the Western Days celebrations.

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Dont forget bowling ball mortors

[video=youtube;yThwBvQtYaU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yThwBvQtYaU[/video]

g zilla said:

Dont forget bowling ball mortors

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Or my Cannon:




Around here you just walk in and buy the Powder. Nobody ever asks you what it's for. You can even get Pyrodex at Walmart without being asked any questions about what you'll be using it for.

Here's my 56mm "Muzzle Loader". I made it "Recoiless".


[video=youtube;RhBhBrBMfVY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhBhBrBMfVY[/video]

Bat-mite said:

Hi, all. So far, from what I gather, the alternatives for doing BP ejection charges are:

1. Buy BP from a gun store and lie about having a muzzle loader.
2. Buy a cheap old muzzle loader and buy BP from a gun store and tell the truth about having a muzzle loader.
3. Buy BP from a gun store and get a LEUP.

So, supposing I had an aversion to lying, and didn't want to buy a muzzle loader, and didn't want to pay for a LEUP, are there any legal, affordable alternatives to BP that people are using?

I saw that Apogee has some kind of CO2 ejection, but it looks rediculously expensive. Thanks!

Click to expand...

I got mine from the motor dealer that supports our launches. The only thing he asked me was what I was flying that day.

In germany we use Nitrocellulose. If it is only nitrated by 12% it is not considered an explosive in germany. So you need no license for it in germany.
It works quite well and hase some saftey advantages since it produces less heat for the same amount of gas.
You can get is as flash cotton in magic stores.
But you should check the legal status in the US.

I'm working on something using springs and DC motors. It's unlikely to ever fit in things smaller than 4" diameter, though. It needs a lot more thinking, though.

I'm working on a version of the "silly-putty" timers that free-flight glider guys use for dethermalizers. Tricky part is getting delay times to be consistent enough...and of course making the thing light enough for LPR.

thomas said:

In germany we use Nitrocellulose. If it is only nitrated by 12% it is not considered an explosive in germany. So you need no license for it in germany.
It works quite well and hase some saftey advantages since it produces less heat for the same amount of gas.
You can get is as flash cotton in magic stores.
But you should check the legal status in the US.

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I saw some Video of one of those German Rockets using the Nitrocellulose. Ejection was quite impressive! I like the Fireball.

I have used compressed air in a plastic coke bottle. E-match melts a plastic seal disc to release the air. Will fit in a 4" tube.

M

MClark said:

I have used compressed air in a plastic coke bottle. E-match melts a plastic seal disc to release the air. Will fit in a 4" tube.

M

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OK, now you have to post some pictures of that, please!


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I have not tried it, but reportedly this works well.

View attachment Crimson_powder.pdf

Crimson powder works. I have ground tested it.

WillMarchant said:

OK, now you have to post some pictures of that, please!

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I would have to find it in the shop for a pic. It has been about 15 years since I used it. But it works.

A soda bottle will hold over 100 psi. Best to use the smoothest ones with few ridges and bumps, a real Coke bottle is not the best
I made an aluminum adapter with one end to fit the bottle threads and the other for a plastic valve for a garden hose.
For the valve out end I modified two caps, one with an airline quick disconnect and other with a 3/8" hole. Over this hole a disc of strong tape used for aircraft wing leading edge rock protection to hold in the air.
In operation the disconnect cap is installed, valve open, pressurize bottle, valve closed. Cap with disc installed (tape is clamped by tighten the cap) and valve opened. Observe for leaks.
An e-match is stuck to the outside of the tape disc, when the altimeter fires the match it heats enough for the disc to fail releasing the air. Some matches need some help with a bit of pyro, smokeless, BP or propellant crumbs will work.
Air comes out really fast, 100 psi will give a lot of volume.
I pressurized a soda bottle to 120 psi and beat it (with PPE) against the corner of the workbench and it did not fail and rings like it is metal. But you need to test the bottles you are using.
The bottle has some bstard thread diameter and pitch. Rather than cutting the thread if I were to do it again I would use a filled epoxy to attach the bottle to the valve .

M

Hi,
since a few years I use flash cotton as ejection charge. In the Netherlands it can easily be bought at shops for magician supplies. This stuff has a very clean burn, with no residue in body tubes. For example: I use a system for dual deployment that uses flash cotton for ejection of drogue/nose cone AND for ejection of the main chute (Stratologger). This module has flown 50 times (!) in 4 different model rockets and sofar I did not have any burn damage to components, all parts are still the originals.

On average I use 0,2 - 0,3 grams of this stuff which is ignited by a low power igniter. Drogue chute AND main chute are both ejected at the front of the rocket by the module. The module is fitted in several different diameter rockets with an adapter and quick mount/release system, so the entire module can be prepared outside the rocket and installed into the rocket in a few seconds....