First homemade fiberglass rocket tube

Performance nut · Mar 15, 2014

I did some searches and found a thread, website, and v i d e o s. Now my brain is on information overload as there are so many options. :bangpan:

So for a beginner noob, this is what I'd like to do: make a 38mm minimum diameter rocket that can use any engine on the market and live to tell the tale. With that in mind, I have questions:

Method: Using the fiberglass sleeves seems like a good start for a beginner; however, the results have been varied (some good, some bad). I really like the setup tfish has with the mandrel on top and the feed on the bottom, not sure if he just made it look easy due to experience or if it is really that easy. Recommendations?
Fiberglass sleeve: For the fiberglass sleeve, the 2" diameter light fiberglass sleeve at the bottom seems to be my choice. Do I need more than one, stacked on top of each other or just one sleeve will work?
Fiberglass roll: For cloth, the FHX88-50 looks like it will offer a smoother finish but the FG3743-38 is lighter. How many layers do you need? Is there a recommendation other than what I listed? I'm trying to keep cost down since I'm likely going to mess up.
Finish: shrink wrap or porous Teflon coated release film? Both look like they have their pros and cons.
Protecting the mandrel: I was rather confused on step V on this write up as I have read that you don't put tape in the middle, you tape the ends. So what is the best way to protect the mandrel?

Again, it seems a bit overwhelming for a noob. Adding discussions on which epoxy to use... :facepalm:

. I appreciate the advise and patience.

GregGleason · Mar 15, 2014

My advise is to go slow. This is an acquired skill, somewhat analogous to paint skills. Consider making a log of your processes so you can build your own knowledge base.

As as epoxy goes, I use Aeropoxy. It is one of the best epoxy systems out there with regard to the hobby.

The tfish method is similar to what I use.

I would recommend ~6 oz S-glass. S-glass is for structures, whereas E-glass is for electrical RF transparency. I get mine from Aircraft Spruce, which is where I get my epoxy. I'd stay away from compression tapes and go with peel ply.

There is is a wealth of information on the Composite Rockets Yahoo group, but there is not much activity on it at the moment.

Greg

REK · Mar 15, 2014

PN,

the sleeves will have to be stacked on top of another. Depending on the weight of the sleeve you might need 4+ sleeves to get the wall thickness you want.

There are many types of epoxies and so far Aeropoxy has been my choice (for now on their PH2032). If you go with Aeropoxy I recommend getting the new hardener 3663.

I'd go with peel ply, using the heat shrink tubing means you need a heat gun to shrink it, as where peel ply will not.

The 2x2 twill is 9oz. and if it is the same weight as the 9oz. 8 Harness satin I used then you will need at least four wraps to get the desired wall thickness.

Hope this helps.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

Performance nut · Mar 15, 2014

GregGleason said:
My advise is to go slow. This is an acquired skill, somewhat analogous to paint skills. Consider making a log of your processes so you can build your own knowledge base.

As as epoxy goes, I use Aeropoxy. It is one of the best epoxy systems out there with regard to the hobby.

The tfish method is similar to what I use.

I would recommend ~6 oz S-glass. S-glass is for structures, whereas E-glass is for electrical RF transparency. I get mine from Aircraft Spruce, which is where I get my epoxy. I'd stay away from compression tapes and go with peel ply.

There is is a wealth of information on the Composite Rockets Yahoo group, but there is not much activity on it at the moment.

Greg

Thank you. So I take it S-glass is preferred for the airframe and E-glass is recommended in nose cones if you have some sort of GPS antenna.

SinfulDarkLord said:
PN,

the sleeves will have to be stacked on top of another. Depending on the weight of the sleeve you might need 4+ sleeves to get the wall thickness you want.

There are many types of epoxies and so far Aeropoxy has been my choice (for now on their PH2032). If you go with Aeropoxy I recommend getting the new hardener 3663.

I'd go with peel ply, using the heat shrink tubing means you need a heat gun to shrink it, as where peel ply will not.

The 2x2 twill is 9oz. and if it is the same weight as the 9oz. 8 Harness satin I used then you will need at least four wraps to get the desired wall thickness.

Hope this helps.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

Aeropoxy seems to be the most popular. I didn't find the 3663 hardener out there. Where do you buy it?

So peel ply stays on the top of tube, to smooth it out? It never comes off? What is porous Teflon coated release film for? Protection between your mandrel and the fiberglass tube?

REK · Mar 15, 2014

Performance nut said:
Aeropoxy seems to be the most popular. I didn't find the 3663 hardener out there. Where do you buy it?

So peel ply stays on the top of tube, to smooth it out? It never comes off? What is porous Teflon coated release film for? Protection between your mandrel and the fiberglass tube?

You have to call them up so you can place the order for that kit. The peel ply comes off, it does not stick to the glass and epoxy. Once you remove the peel ply you are left with a super smooth surface. The aircraft spruce porous teflon release film is the peel ply.

The barrier for your mandrel can either be mylar or my personal favorite parchment paper. They will keep the epoxy from sticking to your mandrel. I'd go with parchment paper since you can find it anywhere and its cheap.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

Performance nut · Mar 15, 2014

SinfulDarkLord said:
You have to call them up so you can place the order for that kit. The peel ply comes off, it does not stick to the glass and epoxy. Once you remove the peel ply you are left with a super smooth surface. The aircraft spruce porous teflon release film is the peel ply.

The barrier for your mandrel can either be mylar or my personal favorite parchment paper. They will keep the epoxy from sticking to your mandrel. I'd go with parchment paper since you can find it anywhere and its cheap.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

Ok, so the porous Teflon coated film is 37.5" which I assume will limit your rockets to no longer than 36" (cutting off 0.75" on each end to ensure an even and squared off tube)? What if you wanted to make a 48" long airframe, would you have to find another peel ply?

REK · Mar 15, 2014

Performance nut said:
Ok, so the porous Teflon coated film is 37.5" which I assume will limit your rockets to no longer than 36" (cutting off 0.75" on each end to ensure an even and squared off tube)? What if you wanted to make a 48" long airframe, would you have to find another peel ply?

Priced at only $5.50 order more than one yard. Thats 72"x38" of peel ply. The one that I used on my fiberglass tube was a 60" wide by a yard. However, mine was different and when removed leaves a surface ready for secondary bonding. Still I recommend the porous peel ply, because it leaves you a much smoother surface finish and comes of much easiers.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

CarVac · Mar 15, 2014

A word of warning:

Porous teflon film is NOT peel ply. Porous teflon film is porous teflon film: a thin plastic sheet with holes poked in it. This is if you want a smooth surface without much effort, but the surface will need to be prepared for bonding.

Peel ply is entirely different: it's a fabric (usually Dacron) that is used as the top layer of a layup in order to leave behind a bonding-ready surface. There is teflon-coated nylon peel-ply-alike, but it's not good for bonding afterwards.

Performance nut · Mar 15, 2014

CarVac said:
A word of warning:

Porous teflon film is NOT peel ply. Porous teflon film is porous teflon film: a thin plastic sheet with holes poked in it. This is if you want a smooth surface without much effort, but the surface will need to be prepared for bonding.

Peel ply is entirely different: it's a fabric (usually Dacron) that is used as the top layer of a layup in order to leave behind a bonding-ready surface. There is teflon-coated nylon peel-ply-alike, but it's not good for bonding afterwards.

Just for clarity, what is the difference in finishes? I'm assuming the bond ready finish is rougher but you know what happens when you assume...

CarVac · Mar 15, 2014

Performance nut said:
Just for clarity, what is the difference in finishes? I'm assuming the bond ready finish is rougher but you know what happens when you assume...

Film will give a smooth finish, but not necessarily flat. It's a major pain when it wrinkles, which it does more readily than peel ply (in my experience)

Peel ply gives you a fine textured finish that needs to be either sanded or filled or a combination. In my personal experience, it lays flatter on a tube, though if there are wrinkles inherently in the fabric you will have to gently (low temp!) iron them out.

REK · Mar 16, 2014

CarVac said:
Film will give a smooth finish, but not necessarily flat. It's a major pain when it wrinkles, which it does more readily than peel ply (in my experience)

Peel ply gives you a fine textured finish that needs to be either sanded or filled or a combination. In my personal experience, it lays flatter on a tube, though if there are wrinkles inherently in the fabric you will have to gently (low temp!) iron them out.

What are the chances it will wrinkle? According to Tony the porous teflon is tough to get creases on it. I really don't know what issues you had, but more than likely it means you weren't careful. On another note, why do you say it does not lay flat? That pretty much results as to how you apply it on to the airframe. If you apply it right it will lay flat just as right as any other peel ply.

CarVac · Mar 16, 2014

I was vacuum bagging, so it would wrinkle up a storm.

REK · Mar 16, 2014

CarVac said:
I was vacuum bagging, so it would wrinkle up a storm.

Well Performance nut is not doing any sort of vacuum bagging, so pretty much there is no chance it will wrinkle on him. You should have not said any sort of negative comments about the porous teflon release film just, because it wrinkled up on you in a vacuum bagging lay up.

PS I still think you weren't careful, that release film is meant for vacuum bagging.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

CarVac · Mar 16, 2014

SinfulDarkLord said:
Well Performance nut is not doing any sort of vacuum bagging, so pretty much there is no chance it will wrinkle on him. You should have not said any sort of negative comments about the porous teflon release film just, because it wrinkled up on you in a vacuum bagging lay up.

PS I still think you weren't careful, that release film is meant for vacuum bagging.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

Porous teflon release film is meant for flat vacuum bagging, not tubes, and besides, it doesn't let the epoxy out as easily as peel ply so you'll have overly-high resin content in the layup.

REK · Mar 16, 2014

CarVac said:
Porous teflon release film is meant for flat vacuum bagging, not tubes, and besides, it doesn't let the epoxy out as easily as peel ply so you'll have overly-high resin content in the layup.

Like I said before he ain't going to vacuum bag it. The resin content can be controlled by you. Your the one applying it and its easy to figure it out when you have applied enough.

I will say no more.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

kenstarr · Mar 16, 2014

Take some time and think/write out your steps of the operation. I've found that to be very helpful. Make sure you have all your supplies ready, contingencies in place, an abundance of gloves and paper towels and NO distractions. I've been a huge fan of the sleeves from Soller Composites and have made several minimum diameter rockets from 6mm diameter all the way up to 66mm. For me, I have employed various metal mandrels for the most part covered with 2 separate layers of grocery store parchment paper. Tubes come right off. when adjusting for certain motor diameters, I've had to adjust the layers of parchment paper to get proper fits. On several rockets I've done the sleeve on assorted paper tubes, some rocketry related, some just out of the trash can. Here is my Blackhawk 38 rocket using sleeve.

Joker050608 · Mar 16, 2014

Although traditional methods are to use peel ply and Teflon films, has anyone thought about using Mylar sheeting to complete the wrapping process? It's not porous and will not stick to the finished product. Also it will give a smooth, glass-like surface that is nearly ready to paint. The greatest part about Mylar is that it is re-usable. Just give it a quick non abrasive wash down with soapy water and use it again.

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BLKKROW · Mar 16, 2014

Joker050608 said:
Although traditional methods are to use peel ply and Teflon films, has anyone thought about using Mylar sheeting to complete the wrapping process? It's not porous and will not stick to the finished product. Also it will give a smooth, glass-like surface that is nearly ready to paint. The greatest part about Mylar is that it is re-usable. Just give it a quick non abrasive wash down with soapy water and use it again.

Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

Then you are stuck with a layup that has excess epoxy.

Joker050608 · Mar 16, 2014

There's no excess if done properly. I think John Coker has done this on his layups. I've used the same technique with no problems or mess.

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REK · Mar 16, 2014

Joker050608 said:
There's no excess if done properly. I think John Coker has done this on his layups. I've used the same technique with no problems or mess.

Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

Like you said and like I told CarVac if you control the amount of resin that works just as good. However, with mylar you end up with air bubbles you have to address to with a squeegee or something. Also you have that seam to deal with that is a pain to sand down, unless your using a thin mil mylar. Still a pain if you think about it.

Whatever works best for you though.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

CarVac · Mar 16, 2014

SinfulDarkLord said:
Like you said and like I told CarVac if you control the amount of resin that works just as good. However, with mylar you end up with air bubbles you have to address to with a squeegee or something. Also you have that seam to deal with that is a pain to sand down, unless your using a thin mil mylar. Still a pain if you think about it.

Whatever works best for you though.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

If you hold back on resin, there will be tons of micro-voids.

The best way to avoid this is to lay it up with additional resin and squeeze it out through peel ply.

REK · Mar 17, 2014

CarVac said:
If you hold back on resin, there will be tons of micro-voids.

The best way to avoid this is to lay it up with additional resin and squeeze it out through peel ply.

I really do not see how one can hold back on resin. It is called control you know. Fiberglass turns transparent, which allows you to realize that you have applied enough resin.

Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

JimJarvis50 · Mar 17, 2014

Joker050608 said:
Although traditional methods are to use peel ply and Teflon films, has anyone thought about using Mylar sheeting to complete the wrapping process? It's not porous and will not stick to the finished product. Also it will give a smooth, glass-like surface that is nearly ready to paint. The greatest part about Mylar is that it is re-usable. Just give it a quick non abrasive wash down with soapy water and use it again.

Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

Mick Kelly wrote up a mylar method back in 2005. It's attached. There are probably better ways to do some of the steps now, but there are a lot of good ideas in his write-up. And Mick made some of the best tubes ever. I hadn't read this for a while, but I did so tonight. One thing I saw is that he uses System Three epoxy clear coat for his final finish. I bet that might work for finishing up the peel ply surfaces we make now.

If you make tubes, give this a read.

Jim

View attachment Micks tube method.doc

tfish · Mar 17, 2014

Performance nut,

As you can see, there are many ways of getting the job done. I won't say one way is better then the other, they all will work. I like the Teflon coated peel ply. Others don't. It may leave some Teflon in the layup. It's worked up to mach 2.4 with no problems. If you plan on flying faster then mach 2.5 you may want to think about using this peel ply. Some guys have very strong feelings on what will and what won't work. I agree with this to a certain point. If you are flying very fast and for what ever reason I call that mach 2.5. I would then really think about epoxy type. vacuum bagging, type of cloth etc. BUT, for 99% of us it is not required. A couple years ago I wanted to prove my point and built a 98mm min dia hand layed all fiberglass rocket using thinned down boat epoxy. It's flown to 38K @ mach 2.4 without any issues..other then finding it.

Tony

Performance nut · Mar 17, 2014

kenstarr said:
Take some time and think/write out your steps of the operation. I've found that to be very helpful. Make sure you have all your supplies ready, contingencies in place, an abundance of gloves and paper towels and NO distractions. I've been a huge fan of the sleeves from Soller Composites and have made several minimum diameter rockets from 6mm diameter all the way up to 66mm. For me, I have employed various metal mandrels for the most part covered with 2 separate layers of grocery store parchment paper. Tubes come right off. when adjusting for certain motor diameters, I've had to adjust the layers of parchment paper to get proper fits. On several rockets I've done the sleeve on assorted paper tubes, some rocketry related, some just out of the trash can. Here is my Blackhawk 38 rocket using sleeve.

The sleeves look to be the easiest route, just wasn't sure how the method differed between rolling it and stacking it with sleeves. How did you set up your barrier between the mandrel and the product? I see you used parchment paper, what I'm wondering is how you taped it down. Soller recommends a single piece of tape down the middle. I emailed him about it and he said that with careful application and the assistance of the lubricant you put between the mandrel and barrier, everything stays smooth.

I also like the shrink wrap, was what I intended to use. Any issues with it?

JimJarvis50 said:
Mick Kelly wrote up a mylar method back in 2005. It's attached. There are probably better ways to do some of the steps now, but there are a lot of good ideas in his write-up. And Mick made some of the best tubes ever. I hadn't read this for a while, but I did so tonight. One thing I saw is that he uses System Three epoxy clear coat for his final finish. I bet that might work for finishing up the peel ply surfaces we make now.

If you make tubes, give this a read.

Jim

Sweet, thank you Jim! I have read several and I have to say, my head is swimming.

tfish said:
Performance nut,

As you can see, there are many ways of getting the job done. I won't say one way is better then the other, they all will work. I like the Teflon coated peel ply. Others don't. It may leave some Teflon in the layup. It's worked up to mach 2.4 with no problems. If you plan on flying faster then mach 2.5 you may want to think about using this peel ply. Some guys have very strong feelings on what will and what won't work. I agree with this to a certain point. If you are flying very fast and for what ever reason I call that mach 2.5. I would then really think about epoxy type. vacuum bagging, type of cloth etc. BUT, for 99% of us it is not required. A couple years ago I wanted to prove my point and built a 98mm min dia hand layed all fiberglass rocket using thinned down boat epoxy. It's flown to 38K @ mach 2.4 without any issues..other then finding it.

Tony

I'm starting to get that feeling Tony. It seems this process differs depending on who you talk to. I'm sure there are more ways not to do this but there seems to be several ways to do it, which in a way is a bit of a relief. BTW, I really liked the videos you did, those helped out quite a bit.

JimJarvis50 · Mar 18, 2014

Performance nut said:
The sleeves look to be the easiest route, just wasn't sure how the method differed between rolling it and stacking it with sleeves. How did you set up your barrier between the mandrel and the product? I see you used parchment paper, what I'm wondering is how you taped it down. Soller recommends a single piece of tape down the middle. I emailed him about it and he said that with careful application and the assistance of the lubricant you put between the mandrel and barrier, everything stays smooth.

I also like the shrink wrap, was what I intended to use. Any issues with it?

Sweet, thank you Jim! I have read several and I have to say, my head is swimming.

I'm starting to get that feeling Tony. It seems this process differs depending on who you talk to. I'm sure there are more ways not to do this but there seems to be several ways to do it, which in a way is a bit of a relief. BTW, I really liked the videos you did, those helped out quite a bit.

As long as you're swimming anyway, here's a link to the "Tom Cloud" method for making tubes. It's a bit dated too, but there are many tricks and techniques here that are valuable. Those who are familiar with the method I use will recognize where I stole many of "my" ideas.

https://www.aeroconsystems.com/tips/cloud_FG_tubes.htm

Jim

Performance nut · Mar 18, 2014

JimJarvis50 said:
As long as you're swimming anyway, here's a link to the "Tom Cloud" method for making tubes. It's a bit dated too, but there are many tricks and techniques here that are valuable. Those who are familiar with the method I use will recognize where I stole many of "my" ideas.

https://www.aeroconsystems.com/tips/cloud_FG_tubes.htm

Jim

Cool

I was told today that it is irresponsible to make fiberglass or CF without vacuum bagging as there is a possibility of a void. It seems folk are might sensitive when it comes to their composites.

JimJarvis50 · Mar 18, 2014

Performance nut said:
Cool

I was told today that it is irresponsible to make fiberglass or CF without vacuum bagging as there is a possibility of a void. It seems folk are might sensitive when it comes to their composites.

Ask whoever told you that to show you one of their multi-wrap tubes done with vacuum bagging. I'm guessing they won't be able to. Or perhaps they will show you something like the "raisin rocket" I made when I tried to compress a multi-wrap layup. It was quite unique. I gave it to a guy who never flew it. Perhaps he tried and the launch had an RSO??

Jim

CarVac · Mar 18, 2014

JimJarvis50 said:
Ask whoever told you that to show you one of their multi-wrap tubes done with vacuum bagging. I'm guessing they won't be able to. Or perhaps they will show you something like the "raisin rocket" I made when I tried to compress a multi-wrap layup. It was quite unique. I gave it to a guy who never flew it. Perhaps he tried and the launch had an RSO??

Jim

I did it once, but I cheated: mid-cure, I took it out of the bag, took the peel ply off, massaged the wrinkles out, and then reapplied vacuum.

GregGleason · Mar 18, 2014

Performance nut said:
Cool

I was told today that it is irresponsible to make fiberglass or CF without vacuum bagging as there is a possibility of a void. It seems folk are might sensitive when it comes to their composites.

I would ignore that advice if it was worded exactly that way.

Plenty of great layups are made without the application of vacuum that are perfectly suited for hobby rocketry.

A great tool to help avoid the creation of voids on airframe layups is a simple tool called the fiberglass roller (via stantonjtroy).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007VQRHJS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

This tool presses the fabric onto the surface and helps draw out excess resin.

After use, clean with denatured alcohol or acetone.

Greg

First homemade fiberglass rocket tube

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