An order from Red Arrow Hobbies

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:horse:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions... however pig-headed... including me! :grin:

I think it is clearly obvious to most that no one was actually hurt by the lack or delay of actions by RAH. No money was kept without product being (eventually) delivered or refunds being given if asked. Some here feel that RAH needs a firm spanking for not living up to everyone's expectations. Well.. as consumers we have the right to spend our money where we want. Businesses live and die by the dollar. Some believe that the customer is always right! But remember that if you aren't spending money with a vendor, you are NOT a customer! :eyepop:

legal this... legal that... just because something is a LAW, doesn't mean it is RIGHT... sometimes it is stupid! Sheeple so often forget the origins of our country.

Never the less... I am finding this thread entertaining! :clap:

Jerome :pop:
 
I have found the best way to make sure you get WHAT you want WHEN you want it is to use the good old fashion telephone and call the guy. If you don't get an answer right away call back later. It's not that hard! Dave's a great guy, give him a call and find out for yourself!
 
If you like RAH and don't mind the lack of communication and waiting for stuff to arrive and then be shipped to you, and enjoy the lower prices, GO FOR IT.

If that sort of thing is a problem for you, if you expect communication at every step of the transaction or instant (or near instant) notification of any delays or problems with the immediate fulfillment of the order...

I don't see how those two extremes have to be the only two choices we have. I really didn't like the way RAH failed to tell me the order would be delayed until I asked about it weeks after the order, failed to reply to other emails, and then refunded my entire order without me asking them to when I suggested they ship the item that was in stock.

But I don't expect instant communication of every step, delay, etc. either.

What would have been acceptable is if I'd placed the order (one rocket, one motor) and within a couple of days gotten an email from them, "We're sorry, the motor isn't in stock but we're willing to either ship the rocket now and motor later, or refund the entire order. Please let us know what you'd prefer." That wouldn't have taken anyone at RAH more than a minute and they would have made more money from me than they did.

I also don't believe (as others have suggested) that this tiny amount of customer service would have required them to raise prices.
 
I don't see how those two extremes have to be the only two choices we have. I really didn't like the way RAH failed to tell me the order would be delayed until I asked about it weeks after the order, failed to reply to other emails, and then refunded my entire order without me asking them to when I suggested they ship the item that was in stock.

But I don't expect instant communication of every step, delay, etc. either.

What would have been acceptable is if I'd placed the order (one rocket, one motor) and within a couple of days gotten an email from them, "We're sorry, the motor isn't in stock but we're willing to either ship the rocket now and motor later, or refund the entire order. Please let us know what you'd prefer." That wouldn't have taken anyone at RAH more than a minute and they would have made more money from me than they did.

I also don't believe (as others have suggested) that this tiny amount of customer service would have required them to raise prices.

I see your point, but ultimately it comes down to how individual folks do business, and who you're dealing with.

For instance, I used to buy a lot of parts at salvage yards for farm equipment and trucks/cars when we were row cropping. There was a salvage yard nearby that had a LOT of older stuff out there, stuff that was hard to find. Basically a cow pasture turned junkyard. There was a guy working there (Robert) who just knew the place backward and forward-- knew virtually everything out there, could tell you where it was, even if the part you needed was still likely to be on the thing and usable or not. He was a great guy to deal with, easygoing and good to talk to, friendly and helpful... UNFORTUNATELY, he didn't own the place. The place was owned by a crotchety old man who was usually PO'd and didn't seem to like anybody, and he'd try to rip you off based on your appearance-- if he liked you, you'd get a good price. If he didn't like you, if he thought he could screw you, he'd do his level best to.... unfortunately, about half the time Robert would have to send you to this A-hole to tell you how much he wanted for something you needed... and more than once I got in my pickup and left because he was trying to screw me over. When Robert set you up to pull the part off and/or helped you get it out, and priced it for you, and sent you to the office to pay the owner's funny-looking weird nephew or whatever who handled the phone and cash box, everything was smooth sailing. When Robert had to send you to the old man to price something, more often than not you were gritting your teeth when it was over, and either forking over more than you figured or stalking off mad to go hunt what you needed elsewhere. Robert MADE that place, and when he left, it was belly up within six months-- the old man NEVER lifted a finger around the place that *I* ever saw, and Robert was an absolute SAINT to put up with the crap I'm sure he had to put up with off that old man... I know how much he crap he gave his CUSTOMERS, so I shudder to think of what an A-hole he was toward his employees...

For good or ill, a business is a reflection of the person running it. If you have good, communicative folks running a business with strong moral character and ethics, you'll see that reflected in how the business is operated. If you have folks with a 'devil may care' attitude just doing what they have to do to get by, you'll see that as well. If you have a pompous, arrogant individual with a "better than you" or "smarter than you" "I know better than you" attitude, you'll see that reflected as well. If you have shady characters or folks of low moral character willing to split with other people's money paid them in good faith, and blow it on their own devices, well, you'll be lucky if you see anything but a withdrawal on your account and an empty mailbox... That's people, and that's just life...

"Woulda, coulda, shoulda" is all well and good, but in the end it doesn't butter any bread. Most folks are going to do it "their way" and basically it boils down to the individual customer "taking it or leaving it" and either buying from them and playing the game their way, or splitting with their money and finding someplace selling comparable stuff for a better price or better service. It's just that simple. IF the vendor in question saw a problem and wanted to change, they certainly could... but evidently they don't see a problem or are quite content how they're doing things and could care less about what anyone else thinks about it. Some folks aren't looking to 'set the world on fire' with their sales figures, and would rather cater to a specific clientele that is comfortable with their preferred way of doing business. Rocketry, being a niche hobby that it is, probably has a disproportionate number of folks who subscribe to this way of thinking... (I can think of two offhand that have as much as said this is their business model, either through words or actions, and one has even stated as much in print!)

SO, while we might decry the "lost opportunities" and wish that a particular vendor would operate by a different mindset, the truth is it's not particularly likely to change... some folks would rather go under than change, probably a lot of folks won't change until they see a drastic fall-off in sales and start wondering "what gives?" and "what do I need to do to improve this situation?" and makes the appropriate changes. Some folks are very pro-active and open minded about it and are constantly seeking to achieve the highest standards they can... sadly enough there's also a few scumbags that prowl around looking for folks to fleece, or who are shady enough that they don't see a problem running like a bandit with other people's money paid in good faith when they hit a snag or the opportunity presents itself... like the rest of the human race, it's a mixed bag...

We had an auto parts place here in town that I used to occasionally deal with who was run by the same type guy... If you were one of his drinking buddies, or went to his church, or whatever, he was just as nice as peach pie... fawn over you and treat you like a long lost brother. If you WEREN'T his buddy, went to a different church, or whatever, he'd treat you like you took a sh!t in his momma's Cheerios that morning... I'd OCCASIONALLY go in there to try to get a part or some supply (usually for the tractor or truck when I was working in the fields in the busy times of the year, preparing to plant, planting, or harvesting) and he'd ignore you while he BS'd with his buddies, and then when you found what you want and stood at the counter waiting to pay for it and get going, he acted like it just ruined his whole day to have to wait on you... Lord forbid if you needed something behind the counter! After awhile I got sick and tired of that UTTER CRAP and decided he could go straight to h3ll and I'd never buy anything there again-- It's five miles to town and fifteen miles to Rosenberg, but heck some days I could have DRIVEN to Rosenberg and been back BEFORE I could go in there, hunt what I needed, finally get him to get around to taking my money, and get back out to the farm... and of course half the time he either didn't have what I needed, or wanted two prices for it anyway.

That "business style" worked for him for awhile... til nothing was left but his "good buddies", some of whom quit farming or went broke or got out of the business, and his sales fell to nothing. He finally sold out to a guy who's halfway decent, so I trade with them SOME now...

Our little "burg" is constantly harping on everybody to "shop local" and such instead of going to Rosenberg, but there's a LOT of people in town with the same sort of mindset as that A-hole-- if you're their buddy they'll take care of you, if not, go hang yourself, they don't care and aren't wasting their precious time on you. Half the places in town charge 50% over what you can get it for in Rosenberg at big box stores, so usually I just go over there anyway.

I refuse to be treated like a second-class citizen because I don't drink beer with some clown... my money's just as green as everybody else's and if he don't want it, doesn't want to provide fair service to get it, fine-- they can go pound sand... I'll go elsewhere that knows how to treat a customer...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I feel compelled to give you all a heads up on this less than professional business ( I do NOT want anyone to go through the drama I experienced with this guy- Dave)

I ordered a rocket and engines on Thursday of last week the 10th
After doing so l read a lot of reviews saying people ordered, after emails, letters , call even faxes customers werent getting what they paid for.

I tried calling them during business hours 5 times during the day...it rang 20 times then beeped twice
(NO MESSAGE OR RECORDING WITH A BUSINESS...REALLY ?? )

so I called paypal, and told them i wanted to cancel my order and this was a gift I needed in a time frame , they agreed a biz without a working number (or) voice mail is bad business
They emailed Red Arrow ...he did NOT reply to THEM, but here is the email he sent me...

"You're quite the asshole Can't you think for yourself? Do you have to listen to whiners on a forum to know how to pre-judge? Now you want to cancel the order after just 24 hrs. **** you. You're order already shipped. I can't give you a refund until I get the product back.ENJOY THE WAIT ! "

Dave


He never sent the order so he lied and , well, you read what he wrote me, after that he started calling me names like "FRYCOOK< COOKIE",etc
after seeing I am a gourmet private chef here in palm springs.( I was Madonna & Guy Ritchie's chef for 3 yrs in L.A...maybe hes envious ?(whatever)... anyhow
Its one thing to practice bad biz, its another thing saying F-you and calling me an asshole for canceling an order.
Nuff said, I found the rocket at a local shop for the same price minus $9 for shipping
(PAYPAL REFUNDED THE MONEY AND HIS ACCOUNT IS UNDER REVIEW FOR BAD CONDUCT)

I order lots of stuff online, this was the first time a business called me names. Avoid this guy at all costs !!
 
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a GREAT GUY ?? this is what he emailed me after canceling an order (he doesnt answer the phone...no recording either...)

You're quite the asshole Can't you think for yourself? Do you have to listen to whiners on a forum to know how to pre-judge? Now you want to cancel the order after just 24 hrs. **** you. You're order already shipped. I'll take you off our customer list. Please find a competitor to annoy. I don't need customers like you.
Dave
 
I kinda have to defend him a LITTLE bit here...most people research a business before buying. If you see something you don't like, you don't order from that vendor and you purchase elsewhere. Ordering an item and then canceling through the third party that handled the transaction within 24 hours isn't the best consumer behavior. Paypal investigating him because of something you read online isn't going to make him happy at all, please realize that. The phone thing is concerning, but you did pull the trigger pretty quickly.

I don't think he truly gave you a reason to cancel your order until AFTER you reported him. Assuming the copy+paste is true, that's pretty terrible customer service, albeit provoked by your actions to some extent.
 
In some cases, I might agree with you Dan. However, in this case, he made a Good Faith effort to contact Dave. An answering machine he could've left a message on, someone answering the phone...

An answering machine, an answered phone call; either one could've easily prevented this.

A customer read some things and got concerned. He tried to contact the business involved, to get a warm fuzzy, and was unable to do so, which directly matches the experience people have complained about. So, he cancelled his order.

I find it hard to blame him.

Don't get me wrong; I've met Dave several times. I like the guy. My one order experience with him (it's been a few years) went without a hitch. However, in this case I can't really find fault with the customer.

-Kevin
 
Wow... just wow!

That is a pretty sorry response. There's an old saying-- the customer is always right... well, almost always... sometimes you do better just to issue a refund and call it good, or refuse to take the job or order in the first place. I had to deal with people who always "wanted it better" and "wanted it cheaper" no matter how cheap or well I did something. I was always amazed because when I was running my custom hay baling business, I was the cheapest guy in the country-- I had 30+ year old equipment and smaller machinery, and tried to get the hay cut and baled in a timely manner... That's a biggie because once hay starts getting past its prime, it gets tougher and less digestible and has less nutrients and sugar in it every day it's delayed. Once it's cut, it's a race to get it baled at the proper moisture level before it loses too much quality. There was one guy who wanted his bales rolled tight and hard as concrete, but my old baler couldn't do that. He griped about it and I told him so... besides, he'd come to me because he was tired of having hay ready to cut at the proper growth stage, and the bigshot operator that he had been using would leave him hanging for anywhere from a week to nearly a MONTH before he'd come cut, and then leave it laying out on the ground in the sun for a week to 10 days before baling it, running the rakes right ahead of the baler... IOW, he let the product turn to cardboard and then charged a big price for it. I didn't make the prettiest bales in the country, not with a 30 year old baler, but I was putting up top-quality hay cut at the right growth stage of the grass and raked at 50% moisture (usually the next day) and then baled at 12% moisture, still possessing a good green color and flue-cured tobacco smell... IOW, top quality product... and I was doing all that for about 1/3 cheaper than the other guy! I had a guy one time start trying to chew me down on the already cheap prices I got for baling... I told him that's the price, take it or leave it... claimed he could get fertilized Bermuda delivered cheaper than I could bale his prairie hay for him... told him it sounded like a h3ll of a deal and he'd better do that then and quit wasting his time and mine... guess what, he called me to bale for him anyway...

Customers can be a royal PITA, but if you're going to be in business, you have to take the good with the bad. I had one neighbor with a reputation lower than alligator p!ss who was constantly bugging me to come bale for him, and I steadfastly refused... I always found "something else" I had to do... with an online rocket biz, you don't have the luxury of knowing who your customers are, and picking and choosing who you sell to... so this sort of thing is going to happen from time to time... No need in getting that upset about it...

I wonder if the guy isn't in trouble financially or business-wise, or has health problems himself or in his family or something serious that's straining him to the breaking point. I certainly hope not, but it's been known to happen-- just look at what's happened to Semroc...

Still, it speaks volumes that in all their difficulties, with the owner passing away last year and the owner's son nearly dying in the hospital from Christmas through the early part of this year, that they STILL managed to post information for their customers and keep the orders flowing, albeit and understandably so not anywhere near as fast as in "good times". Even when they announced the end of Semroc and the selloff of existing stock, their customer service is STILL second to none... I ordered $150 bucks worth of building materials and got notification of my order received in less than an hour after I placed it, an email telling me my order was ready and awaiting shipping later that night, and announced as "shipped" the next morning, and had it here halfway across the country in three days.

It's just the difference in how people handle things and how they do business... some do well, some not so good...

Sad...

later! OL JR :)
 
I kinda have to defend him a LITTLE bit here...most people research a business before buying. If you see something you don't like, you don't order from that vendor and you purchase elsewhere. Ordering an item and then canceling through the third party that handled the transaction within 24 hours isn't the best consumer behavior. Paypal investigating him because of something you read online isn't going to make him happy at all, please realize that. The phone thing is concerning, but you did pull the trigger pretty quickly.

I've stuck up for RAH a few times here and generally I have usually had good results with them. They've been in business a long time and if I can get over to the west side of the state, I'd enjoy stopping in. With the closure of Commonwealth over here there are hardly any 'rocket stores' left anymore.

However with past performance of non-responsiveness to customer problems they've kinda burned up their 'leeway' as far as people 'pulling the trigger' on situations like this. Knowing it is not at all uncommon for such situations to fester and develop from minor annoyance to major freaking PITFA, people are going to be proactive and say, "I am gonna have to bang my fists and stomp my feet to get this situation straightened out before I am done, so I might just as well get the ball rolling right now."

Dave needs to get some kind of phone answering system that WORKS, even a recorded message for god's sake would head off half of these disasters. You don't have to sit by the phone 24/7; checking it 3-4 times a day would probably be plenty.

As far as the pasted emails are concerned -- hoo boy. Have a cold brew and chill out.

It's a lot of fun to tell people to "f#$# off," I do it fairly often myself, but I sure as hell never do it with people whose future business I might need (or who might talk to others).

There are times you just have to bite your tongue, send the refund or order or whatever it is, and just say, "This concludes our transaction; thank you." You don't even have to be NICE, just cold and professional. Solve the problem, shut the door, and be done with it.

It may feel great in your gut to send the email telling people to F-off, but then comes the gnawing fear. How many people are going to read that and say "the hell with it forever" as far as future orders with you? Telling one person to F-off is one thing, but when that email gets read by more and more people you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Just offhand, I'd guess whatever time is being saved by not responding to these brush fires is really not worth the trouble.
 
:horse:
I think it is clearly obvious to most that no one was actually hurt by the lack or delay of actions by RAH. No money was kept without product being (eventually) delivered or refunds being given if asked.

Jerome :pop:

I disagree Jerome. I placed an order from RAH over a year ago. Like others have experienced, it took over a month to arrive and had a "backordered" item missing, in particular one $25 rocket kit. I gave Dave a couple months to fill the backordered item. Eventually I started e-mailing asking for a fill date. No answer. I e-mailed asking to exchange items. No answer. I tried calling. No answer or voicemail. I finally e-mailed asking for a refund. No answer. The guy stole $25 from me and I have the receipts and invoices to prove it. Every e-mail I sent to this man was nothing but courteous. To those out there who say that Dave cares and will make it right. I disagree.
Gena
 
Hmm...2 posts on this forum without a real name.

Yeah, darn people not using their real names, like Chadrog and Daddyisabar, to "name" just a couple&#8230;.. (glass houses and all that)

And given the response that chefgiovanni got from RA, with the "F*** you" reply, I would not blame anyone for using some other name when posting a message about problems with a vendor.

- George Gassaway
 
Yeah, darn people not using their real names, like Chadrog and Daddyisabar, to "name" just a couple&#8230;.. (glass houses and all that)

And given the response that chefgiovanni got from RA, with the "F*** you" reply, I would not blame anyone for using some other name when posting a message about problems with a vendor.

- George Gassaway

Feel free to add the -ers if it means something to you, I just shorten it for simplicity.
 
I would not blame anyone for using some other name when posting a message about problems with a vendor.

There is nothing to be afraid of from a single rocket vendor. There are plenty of others more than willing to take money for rocket bits. But, if the chef wants to be chicken$hit that's his prerogative.

I love the dismissal all the positive feedback and only paying attention to the negative from some of you. Good job.


Sent from my iPhone using TopRamens Rocketry Forum App
 
All of a sudden a new guy appears and his only two posts are negative posts . . . I'd give you more credence had you other posts in other areas that were more or less positive.

Makes me think your name is George.

a GREAT GUY ?? this is what he emailed me after canceling an order (he doesnt answer the phone...no recording either...)

You're quite the asshole Can't you think for yourself? Do you have to listen to whiners on a forum to know how to pre-judge? Now you want to cancel the order after just 24 hrs. **** you. You're order already shipped. I'll take you off our customer list. Please find a competitor to annoy. I don't need customers like you.
Dave
 
Dave has been one of our dealers for years. The post above sure doesn't sound like Dave. There must be more to the story.
 
I have been purchasing from Dave for at least the last 3-4 years, starting with Semroc kits, and Aerotech SU motors, and building the arsenal up from there. I can say I have never had any issues with getting any kits, motors, reloads, casings, or other parts. Dave has even went out of his way and got some electronics in for me, which he normally does not carry. I would highly recommend RAH for your hobby needs/wants.
 
This is a real sore spot with me so I'm just gonna let it lie, *cough, Sheri's Hot Rockets, cough*. = )


James
 
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Dave has been one of our dealers for years. The post above sure doesn't sound like Dave. There must be more to the story.

It sounds a LOT like some of his posts on his Facebook page. He doesn't mind dropping the F bomb there, and it doesn't surprise me that he's responded to a customer that way.
 
My last order with Red Arrow Hobbies...

Mid-May I sent Dave an email inquiring about the availability of M1297W reloads. Next day he replied notifying me that they are currently out of stock and that they would be available within 3 weeks. Cool.
2 weeks later I orrder an M1297W for my L3 cert along with a baby H. I was then notified that I will receive an email from FedEx letting me know when my order has shipped.

2 weeks later...nothing. I was starting to get a bad feeling about this, so I called RAH to check the status of my order. Dave picked up the phone and explained to me that he still hadn't received a shipment from Aerotech. I advised him that I needed the motors before I leave for a launch next week, so he checked his stock to see if he had any other M reloads that go in the same case. He was sold out of those too and let me know that it was very unlikely that my order would arrive before I needed it. I asked if he could refund my order, which he was happy to do and completely understood my situation, and then wished me luck on my L3.

Although I never got what I came for, I found the customer service at RAH to be excellent. Very frustrating however that Aerotech seems to be quite slow on manufacturing and shipping M reloads. (By the way, I got in touch with another vendor who had an M1297W in stock and is willing to send it along with someone to a launch next weekend.)
 
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