An order from Red Arrow Hobbies

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Zeroignite

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Discussion in a certain thread from The Watering Hole prompted me to post this. My plan here is to post, as objectively as I can, an account of a recent order I tried to place with Red Arrow Hobbies. Mostly this will be via unedited email logs (though I have redacted my meatspace name and the paypal ID number, and snipped signatures). Moderators, if you think this thread is out of line, delete it and there'll be no hard feelings from me.


Saturday Febuary 15th, paypal was sent to Red Arrow Hobbies for one pack F12-5, one pack E18-7, one AT 24/40 hardware set, and one Estes Big Daddy. There was no out-of-stock indication on any of these items. The order total inc. shipping was $105.46

Thursday February 20th, I sent them an email:
Zeroignite said:
Hiya,
I put in an order with you on Feb 15th, paypal ID <redacted>, and haven't seen any confirmation or shipment notification. Just wanted to check in and confirm that you have my order in the works.
Thanks,
That same day, shortly thereafter, I received the reply:
Red Arrow said:
Hi <Zeroignite>,
We received your order and will ship as soon as we receive more Big Daddy's
Zeroignite said:
Gotcha. Is there an ETA on that? I didn't see any out-of-stock notice on the site, and am hoping to have that one ready for the club launch in a couple weeks.

Wednesday Feb 26th, shortly before midnight I messaged them again:
Zeroignite said:
It's been a week and I still haven't heard back. What's the status? I was planning on having received the order by now...

On Friday Feb 28th I still hadn't heard back from Red Arrow Hobbies, over 48h later. At 08:45 I opened a paypal dispute, hoping that it might get their attention.
When I had received no reply by about 4pm, I called Red Arrow directly to cancel the order. The man I spoke to said they'd have the Big Daddy back in stock "in a few days". Saying I was already disappointed in their lack of communications and the significant delay, I still asked for an order cancel and refund, which was received the next day.

So, in short, the order hadn't shipped almost two weeks after I placed it, and at no point did Red Arrow Hobbies initiate contact with me regarding the order status. They also don't display with an inventory item is out-of-stock. A phone call got me a refund, but my personal opinion is that this was significantly subpar communications on their part. The cost to me? Two weeks worth of time I wish I'd spent working on rocketry.
 
That is terrible service.

I have mostly ordered from Hobbylinc, and usually the order ships the very next day. But more than once, I have had the experience of placing an order, receiving a confirmation, and then seeing that the order has not shipped, even after a few days. When I have sent an email to follow up, I have immediately received a reply telling me that the order is being held because of one or two out-of-stock items. If I drop those items and tell them to ship the rest, it goes out that day or the next. So they are certainly responsive and quick, but my complaint with them is that they are not proactive when an item is out of stock --- they should send an email saying the order is being held and the reason why without being asked. Other than that, I have no complaints, and I've learned to just check on my order status within a day or two or placing the order.
 
I had an almost identical issue with Red Arrow. They did eventually send me what I ordered but not in a timely fashion. If you can wait their prices are good especially on motors.


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From an IT perspective, it is a complicated (expensive) process to maintain inventory accurately on an ecommerce site. If I have to wait a few days to save money I am ok with that. However they should still provide better service than what you received.


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I had a very similar experience with them as well. A phone call from me finally got me a refund that same day. I called them after I waited 10 days for my package to arrive, and I became curious as to what the problem was. I too was needing the product for an upcoming event. In my opinion, they need to update their website so that people know when items are out of stock before they order them, and they need to be more proactive on their communication.

Just my 2 cents,

David
 
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In defense of Red Arrow. The "They" being refered to is actually a 'him." RA is a small opertrion and he does everything himself including the website. Considering he's not a website guru, it doesn't surprise me that there are no OOS indicators.

I placed an order from RA that was very similar to the one in the OP. I called in the order and was told the hardware was backordered and it could be some time before he got it. I wasn't in a hurry anyway.

He shipped what the had, and no other communication was made or necessary. A couple months later the hardware arrived. He didn't charge extra shipping and he included enough case lube to last me several years.

RA will be a Thunderstruck 5 and I'll undoubtedly buy more stuff if I need anything.
 
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Red Arrow hasn't lost a customer with me. I'll probably use Red Arrow again in the future. I just won't use them to purchase items that I need in a timely manner.

David
 
From an IT perspective, it is a complicated (expensive) process to maintain inventory accurately on an ecommerce site. If I have to wait a few days to save money I am ok with that. However they should still provide better service than what you received.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
I always assumed sites like that kinda took care of themselves, as in automatically maintained decreasing inventory. I didn't realize that it had to be manually maintained for anything other than adding inventory. This stuff is common place for Red Arrow, and it's too bad. Dave is a nice guy but this will catch up to him one day.
 
Red Arrow hasn't lost a customer with me. I'll probably use Red Arrow again in the future. I just won't use them to purchase items that I need in a timely manner.

David
Me neither, but I never order off the website - I don't order unless I have him on the phone and what I want is in his hand. I've never had an issue with this approach. If you can plan ahead, the savings are huge - there's no better price on Aerotech loads out there (that I know of) and free HAZ over $150.00? It's worth a phone call for me.
 
I just posted a similar story in your Off Topic thread about this. I'm done with Red Arrow. Their complete lack of customer service has cost them a lot of future business from me. And he probably doesn't even care.
 
I always assumed sites like that kinda took care of themselves, as in automatically maintained decreasing inventory. I didn't realize that it had to be manually maintained for anything other than adding inventory. This stuff is common place for Red Arrow, and it's too bad. Dave is a nice guy but this will catch up to him one day.

There are web store building software out there that are cheap or even free (if offered by the web hosting company) that the website could be build with that will handle inventory tracking. The website owner just has to make sure that incoming stock is added to the web stores inventory when it comes in. They can be a little bit of a challenge to set up, but maintaining them is about as easy as checking your email.

David
 
Red Arrow hasn't lost a customer with me. I'll probably use Red Arrow again in the future. I just won't use them to purchase items that I need in a timely manner.


I agree, I will certainly use them again. Their (his) service, though not what I expected, was not bad. It is understandable in the context of the type of organization he has. When I spoke with him on the phone he explained the delay and was very nice about the whole thing. He is a very nice guy and was very good about answering some other questions I had. I will definitely do business as well, but as you said, not for timely manner items. Since motors ship ground anyway I always try to stock up based on an assessment of what I will need two to three months ahead of time.
 
I had a "similar experience" too, last summer. :(

Ordered some engines 2.5 weeks before I needed them......contacted them after a week had gone by with no response. They were waiting for everything to get in stock, and as I found out later it might have been another 6 weeks before everything was in stock.

They should have contacted me to begin with and ask me if I wanted to wait for an order that was going to take weeks, maybe 2 months, to arrive.

So, Chadrog, do you think that Red Arrow will change their ways? It has more to do with them than us, right?

- George Gassaway
 
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Gotta love the semiannual moan and groan threads about Red Arrow. Low prices but dated website and lack of thorough and speedy electronic communication in the age of WIFI - UNFORGIVABLE!:gavel:

Although I have not yet seen the annual moan and groan thread on the HIGH prices and modern website with fantastic electronic and personal customer service from Apogee Components. I just try to keep a mental checklist. If I am in my old fart cheapskate mode where I order from a paper catalog calling up on the the blower, expecting delivery via the Pony Express, I use Red Arrow. When I am in my Prima Donna mode where I need it yesterday via E-commerce and mucho attention to make me feel special, I find the nearest hotspot and hit the icon for Apogee. If I am somewhere in between there are a number of other options.
 
Gotta love the semiannual moan and groan threads about Red Arrow. Low prices but dated website and lack of thorough and speedy electronic communication in the age of WIFI - UNFORGIVABLE!:gavel:

Although I have not yet seen the annual moan and groan thread on the HIGH prices and modern website with fantastic electronic and personal customer service from Apogee Components. I just try to keep a mental checklist. If I am in my old fart cheapskate mode where I order from a paper catalog calling up on the the blower, expecting delivery via the Pony Express, I use Red Arrow. When I am in my Prima Donna mode where I need it yesterday via E-commerce and mucho attention to make me feel special, I find the nearest hotspot and hit the icon for Apogee. If I am somewhere in between there are a number of other options.

This.

Unfortunately learning this by experience sometimes stings a bit.

My preference (as frequently stated) is to buy from onsite vendors but that's not always possible for a number of reasons.
 
I had a "similar experience" too, last summer. :(

Ordered some engines 2.5 weeks before I needed them......contacted them after a week had gone by with no response. They were waiting for everything to get in stock, and as I found out later it might have been another 6 weeks before everything was in stock.

They should have contacted me to begin with and ask me if I wanted to wait for an order that was going to take weeks, maybe 2 months, to arrive.

So, Chadrog, do you think that Red Arrow will change their ways? It has more to do with them than us, right?

- George Gassaway
He never will if he's not called out, complaining about it is pointless if nobody knows who you're complaining about.
 
Slow shipping is ok. A hard to navigate website is ok. I understand one-person operations.

But when he gets an order, knows he can't ship it, and then makes no attempt to contact the customer, I see that as a problem. Paypal gives a contact email and phone number right there.

I take phone calls all day for my job, and at the end of the day, my throat is sore and I generally don't want to do more talking for a couple hours.
 
Just my experience here with RA - I ordered some AT reloads from him back in Oct 2012. I know it's been some time and things may have changed but I wanted to put it out here that my order went very smoothly and timely. Dave even contacted me the following day of when I placed the order to tell me one of the reloads was out of stock. I asked if he would substitute another of the same price and he agreed, no problem. My order arrived a few days later. I have not ordered anything else from him since then but based on my experience I would again. Definitely good prices on the reloads and free hazmat with an order over $150 (easy to do) it's a no-brainer.

Sorry to hear of others who have had issues with their orders. I do hope it is only a temporary situation with RA.
 
I have ordered several times from RD and haven't had any issues. It may have taken a week longer then other places but I have enough projects going I just work on what I have at the time. All vendors have there strong points. I try to support them all as we need them all and don't need to loose anymore. I remember ordering rocket parts in the 60's and early 70's as a young boy and the option was waiting for the mail man to drive away and race to the box to see if it was there. Boy I wish I could do that again! its all good.
 
There really should be a confirmation ... I'd think it would be at least as easy as answering angry emails or the phone for followups to many orders. I have seen myself a case where a website happily keeps taking orders (and funds) automatically, but there's no one there, so 2 weeks of nothing between making an order and getting it I consider a very legitimate cause for concern.

I don't know if the one order I did to RAH was a bit slow due to nonimmediate shipping or it just takes that long to ship ground from there. I had an issue with my last Hobbylinc order in that it didn't arrive until the expected date of tracking (appears to have traveled around the country on a UPS plane until reappearing in the USPS system 4 days later), but at least I had tracking.
 
I too had a good experience with Dave at Red Arrow. I ordered some custom centering rings, bulk plates, etc. for an AV bay. Dave set the expectations up front, that it would take a bit longer and it did but it was not unreasonable and I expected it. I would echo what otheres have said, being a one man operation and keeping up on web inventory is not that easy. I don't see anything sinister in the initial avoidance of cancelling the order except that he likely had some effort into the order and wanted to keep it. Whether that was an appropriate response or not Dave was very friendly and I personally would deal with him again.
 
I just posted a similar story in your Off Topic thread about this. I'm done with Red Arrow. Their complete lack of customer service has cost them a lot of future business from me. And he probably doesn't even care.

Again the "Their" is a he. One man operation, older gentleman, not the most computer savy. In fact, I'm surprised he has a website.

I can tell you with certainty that he does care.

Perhaps some of the more computer savy out there could give him some pointers, or perhaps send a link to someone who can. As one person mentioned, complaining doesn't fix anything. He needs to be called on it.

The last thing we need to be doing as a community is promoting the demise of another vendor.
 
Interestingly, I placed my first order with Red Arrow shortly after Semroc announced their plans to close - in order to get a couple of Semroc kits that were already out of stock at "home". I actually placed a Semroc order, a JonRocket order and a Red Arrow order within an hour of one another. The Semroc and JonRocket orders both arrived today, but I've not heard anything one way or the other from Red Arrow.

As noted above, if this is a one-man operation, I'll just let it coast for awhile. If I get the three kits "eventually" it will be OK. One was a backup backup for a favorite (the one in the avatar) and the other were two copies of another that I was going to get around to "someday" but the pending closure of Semroc pushed the time line up a bit.

Update: just got a PayPal refund for the whole order. I guess the two kits were out of stock after all.

Thanks to Red Arrow for taking that action. I know one other possible place to get them yet. Will try that.
 
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Again the "Their" is a he. One man operation, older gentleman, not the most computer savy. In fact, I'm surprised he has a website.

I can tell you with certainty that he does care.

Perhaps some of the more computer savy out there could give him some pointers, or perhaps send a link to someone who can. As one person mentioned, complaining doesn't fix anything. He needs to be called on it.

The last thing we need to be doing as a community is promoting the demise of another vendor.

Sorry, the "I am not computer savvy" excuse doesn't cut it. This is 2014, not 1992. If a vendor has a web presence and electronically takes your money, then be better damn well be savvy enough to follow through on the order. Good grief, it is his job to figure out his own website, not the customer's job to give pointers.

Demise of vendors who don't perform is the natural workings of our American economy. There are plenty of top performers to fill the void. Personally, I will spend a few bucks more at Apogee and others in order to save myself a lot of grief. My time and aggravation are worth more than a few dollars.
 
Sorry, the "I am not computer savvy" excuse doesn't cut it. This is 2014, not 1992. If a vendor has a web presence and electronically takes your money, then be better damn well be savvy enough to follow through on the order. Good grief, it is his job to figure out his own website, not the customer's job to give pointers.

Demise of vendors who don't perform is the natural workings of our American economy. There are plenty of top performers to fill the void. Personally, I will spend a few bucks more at Apogee and others in order to save myself a lot of grief. My time and aggravation are worth more than a few dollars.

If a 25% increase in price is worth it to you for a fancy website, by all means buy from Apogee - they need it!
Aerotech J350 from Red Arrow - $49.99 ($30.00 for L2 Certification)
Aerotech J350 from Apogee - $62.05

As with so many other things, price trumps all.
 
If a 25% increase in price is worth it to you for a fancy website, by all means buy from Apogee - they need it!
Aerotech J350 from Red Arrow - $49.99 ($30.00 for L2 Certification)
Aerotech J350 from Apogee - $62.05

As with so many other things, price trumps all.

Right. My time has a price tag, too.

Let's see:

Apogee: Thriving company, expanding product line, employs several people, nary a bad word about customer service.

Red Arrow: One older guy working out of his shop, can't fulfill orders, frequent complaints.

Now, who "needs" the sale?
 
Right. My time has a price tag, too.

Let's see:

Apogee: Thriving company, expanding product line, employs several people, nary a bad word about customer service.

Red Arrow: One older guy working out of his shop, can't fulfill orders, frequent complaints.

Now, who "needs" the sale?
I don't need it, I appreciate it. I plan ahead.
 
I don't see a problem with a older guy working out of his shop. Dave has supplied rocketry items to the Hobby for years. I think he maybe the longest supplier of HP products in business today. Problems come up for all of us from time to time. Lets face it guys the rocketry hobby has a very small customer base. We should all feel very happy to have the small shops selling rocketry items. Anyone can build a fancy web site to make them look bigger than they really are.
 
If you want to pay more for fluff, by all means do so. I don't need the fluff, I'd rather get the most for my money - Red Arrow offers that. About two weeks ago I ordered an M2100 and a K1499 from Dave, had it in four days. The price was over $106.00 less than the nearest competition, and you can add the HAZ charges to that savings as well because Dave covers them over $150.00. Buy the fluff, I'm happy to take the cheaper motors.
 
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