Trackers & how to use them, that dark mystical art revealed!

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blackjack2564

Crazy Jim's Gone Banana's
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:y: What are they? Which one do I need? When do I really need to start using one? :wink:

There has been a major interest in trackers & GPS in the last year or so. Many of us are getting older & visual means just aren't working anymore. Along with that there are many minimum diameter projects & extreme high altitude flights going on also.

Many of us are flying bigger & higher than ever before.[as a group] I've seen a major uptrend in them everywhere I go, seems like their use is growing exponentially.

I thought I would start a discussion on how to use them to their best potential. I am by no means a "professional know all the answers" person, but have had an exceptional track record with the type I use. Comm-Spec & Marshall.

With all the expense of rockets these days.....electronics, rocket itself, recovery gear, motor hardware.... the initial expense of tracking gear becomes small when compared to the cost of a lost rocket or 2!

What say you?
Do we have a serious interest in this? Enough to make all my slow typing worth the effort.LOL


Buying .........Mounting........Using........shall be the topics at hand.
Questions by all means are expected and welcomed!

I would like to make this a learning experience for all of us & invite any that use them to participate and share their experiences & photos. Detailed stories of some of my more interesting hunts [& yours I hope] will be included. For now my experience is in RF tracking, hopefully very soon, later this season, I will gain GPS experience with the new MissleWorks unit. For now I have zip in that arena & count on other using them to participate.

I must first thank Tim Lehr for twisting my arm into buying one & initially showing me the ropes many, many moons ago. Thanks buddy!

I will begin tomorrow at our launch, by taking pics of how I mount mine, where I mount them & why, along with some actual pics of them in use & being found.


But for now this PDF is a MUST read for anyone serious about going on "the hunt".

It was the first thing I read about using them that had serious info in it & really helped me hone my skills. I have found many a hopelessly lost rocket, given up for dead by my rocket buddies, hours after they had given up....even days later, in my 7 years of using them.

In fact going "on the hunt" has become one of the more enjoyable aspects of flying for myself & buddies. When you actually find "it" the rush is immense [for us anyhow] and we usually celebrate as part of the ritual. Much more fun & enjoyable for ya when you have some one helping. We usually fly in pairs.....then retrieve in pairs. Sometimes even flying 2 rockets each, the getting all 4 at once.

Download this and keep it handy for reference! It was written by Sue McMurray and contains valuable insights. Great way to kick off our discussion:wink:

Even though written for Walston, the info is pertinent for ANY beeping type unit made.

View attachment WalstonTipsAndTricksBySueMcMurray.pdf
 
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:y:
In fact going "on the hunt" has become one of the more enjoyable aspects of flying for myself & buddies. When you actually find "it" the rush is immense [for us anyhow] and we usually celebrate as part of the ritual.

Yep..I love tracking down my rockets. It's great fun. Sue was a long time AeroPac member and she taught me a lot. I do have a couple of GPS units but rarely use them When I do I go to them as a last resort. I can not imaging launching a rocket and watching it on my lap top. Some guys do and that's cool. I'll end this post with 2 photos. The very short story a couple of things my son AJ and I found while tracking down a rocket!

21.jpg


22.jpg


Tony
 
I'm excited to see where this thread goes. Lots of new stuff to learn, yeah!
I'll be much more of a "learner" than a "teacher" in this realm, but when I've got some time to type, I'll still gladly post about my own (limited but successful) tracking experience.

s6
 
YEp, been tring to figure this out too after my hpr blew across the hi way at Lucerne CA. Egg timer has a new product too. In this day, there should be a low cost option, let's call it the SNOWDEN SOLUTION
 
Wait, what? The PDF is from the last century! Are you pulling our collective leg???
 
Definitely interested in learning more about this topic. I have several builds/designs in the works that have high altitude potential but don't want to send them that high unless I have some reassurance of being able to find them.

Matt
 
Price and size. And depending on the person, it might be more fun, or more frustrating.

I was on a hunt last year. I didn't realize it, but the coax cable had come loose in the fitting connected to the radio. So, i was tracking with the radio only (no Yagi). THAT was frustrating.

Jim
 
What's the advantage of fox-hunt tracking over GPS transmitters?


I have seen more failures with achieving "lock" using GPS units, & many times the RF tracker saved the day.

On the other hand land around metal farm barns or silos, shear rock-faces, valleys etc & RF trackers can "bounce' signals or be hidden behind object blocking signals. Sending you in false directions.
This is why you need to begin tracking when the rocket lifts off, NOT after it lands like so many attempt, then wonder why they can't find it.LOL

Fox hunting trackers keep beeping until battery dies which in my case is 40+ days. You may lose the signal due to distance or terrain.... but it's there for you to find through learned technique.

GPS must first acquire "lock" on several satellites before launch to determine location. In thrust phase of launch when rocket approaches mach the signal is blocked/lost due to military parameters in our country [USA]

Then as rocket slows down toward apogee it must again regain lock to send current position. This is where a problem may arise.

I can only attest to my experience in the field, so far I have seen too many failures of all types, to entrust my rocket to GPS only & will continue with tracker along side till I master that .

There are leaps & bounds happening in the GPS these days with better units coming to market & I hope some using them will share their experience.


I had 2 great hunts over the week end I will expound on when I can get an hour to type. [I'm slow....sorry]

1. where a minimum 54 was lost from sight moments after lift off, and tracking was the only way to find it. It only went 8,000ft but landed 2 mi away. [Near a high power electrical transformer station, these are always fun due to interference]

2 a large rocket that should not have needed a tracker,[6in rocket,6,000ft flight] BUT cocked off the pad & landed in the Industrial park 1.5 miles away. Watching from the pads everyone swore it landed on the roof of a football size building.
 
Subscribed :pop:
I just started using my Comm-Spec, so really looking forward to this thread.
 
Price and size. And depending on the person, it might be more fun, or more frustrating.

Boy is that ever the truth,,,,,,,,,,,
My buddy Jim is fantastic at Foxhunting........
I'm definitely subscribed to this,,,,,,
I want to get better at it............

Teddy
 
2 a large rocket that should not have needed a tracker,[6in rocket,6,000ft flight] BUT cocked off the pad & landed in the Industrial park 1.5 miles away. Watching from the pads everyone swore it landed on the roof of a football size building.

Wow that's a small building :lol:
What's the acronym the kids use these days? FIFY? Football Field sized, perhaps? Just givin ya crap Jimbo. How's the weather down southern? We got 20's and snow flurries today.

Adrian
 
missed it by two buildings and a half a field , oops :facepalm: hahahaha I'll let Jim tell the Story, Dam long ass shock cords.
 
Price and size. And depending on the person, it might be more fun, or more frustrating.

+1 on that.

Another advantage to using RDF is "hearing" drogue deployment. Tape the xmtr to the drogue shock cord in an all carbon moon shot, close the bird, and you won't hear a thing. Until the drogue pops. Suddenly there's a beep. You know it's not coming in hot, even tho you can't see the darn thing miles up.

As for deeking 'em out... Same way you get to Carnegie Hall.

Practice.
 
missed it by two buildings and a half a field , oops :facepalm: hahahaha I'll let Jim tell the Story, Dam long ass shock cords.


Heyyyy,,,,,, Heyyyyyy,,,,,,lol
Watch that now,,,,,,,,,lol
Some of us are sensitive to that sort of thing,,,,,,,,,lol

Teddy
 
I've watched you track 'em!

You've got it down! I'm slowly beginning my walk in this direction. Being an RF guy, I can relate to what he is talking about! I'm planning on having some sort of GPS, but not without a tracker system as a secondary (backup) means to find the bird!

-C
 
Our Club at BattlePark has a Walston for club use. I've had several people come back with their rockets that said they never would have found it without the tracker. It isn't so much altitude as ground cover and terrain. When the rocket comes down in a tree and tall grass area along a creek bottom or one of the unused field of tall grass, the tracker can get you to the rocket quick enough you can fly again that day instead of spending hours walking patterns through the brush. Most of the time the trackers are used to speed up recovery rather then ensure recovery. With a 16K ft. waiver, few flight are out of sight.
 
Wow that's a small building :lol:
What's the acronym the kids use these days? FIFY? Football Field sized, perhaps? Just givin ya crap Jimbo. How's the weather down southern? We got 20's and snow flurries today.

Adrian

It's been in high 60's mid 70's & sunny....perfect flying weather.LOL

missed it by two buildings and a half a field , oops :facepalm: hahahaha I'll let Jim tell the Story, Dam long ass shock cords.

Don was part of the hunt for both adventures. Using multiple trackers lets you have more time to fly. We just let them stay there till we were finished launching 3 rockets. Rather than wasting time,fly....go get it......fly...go get it. Just waited till all 3 flew, then went hunting.
Some times they land real close together & you save going back to the same area twice.Especially if both are flying to same altitudes.
Not the case here as the upper winds were blowing at different speeds & different directions every 3,000 ft [this is approximately, it's always changing] One landed over a mile from the other at totally opposite directions from the pads.This is why I use winds aloft-aviation forecast every flying day. Mine was a big heavy 6in rocket & the other a 54mm minimum. The 54 went 2,000 ft higher and got into winds traveling faster & another direction. Just 2,000 ft more altitude meant 10-15mph higher winds.

https://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Wi...HS&Submit=Get+Forecast&hour=24&course=azimuth
https://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/launch/code.cgi?Submit=Go&sta=KOGB&state=SC

Note the big difference in wind direction at different altitudes! [click to enlarge....but you knew that.LOL}
Picture 10.png Picture 16.png

I've watched you track 'em!

You've got it down! I'm slowly beginning my walk in this direction. Being an RF guy, I can relate to what he is talking about! I'm planning on having some sort of GPS, but not without a tracker system as a secondary (backup) means to find the bird!

-C

I flew at cgoulds field last summer. Although the waiver was only 5,000ft....field was mostly 1-3ft high wheat. Even though you could see where your rocket landed, finding it in knee high grass was a bear even with a tracker. You would only be 1/4 to 1/2 mile away,but your depth perception will ALWAYS fool you! Especially when there are miles of flowing wheat. It all looks the same with few or no reference points to walk towards.
Another reason a compass is part of my recovery bag. Take a heading as soon as rocket lands, cause once you take your eyes of it, to get water or talk to someone you lose the exact location. Sometime you can't walk directly towards the landing spot. You may be able to drive towards it, maybe a clump of trees, water, or ditch you can't cross are in the way. You may have to divert quite a bit off course to get around one of these obstacle, & a compass heading will get you right back on point.

Once you get close the signal is so strong, [within a 100ft circle] I would remove the antenna to have the receiver lead me right to the rocket. When you get close, the signal gets so overpowering you literally can walk in a circle around the rocket with same signal strength. Removing the antenna & you get some directionality back. This is a WELL remembered tip for those of us who fly in corn,bean,cotton,wheat etc!
 
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The attenuation switch on the bottom of the Walston comes in really handy when you get close. Between that and the Gain, you can get pretty close and still have great directional differences. The other thing I really like about the Walston is the tuning button. It lets you tune the receiver for the transmitter so you get the strongest signal when tuned to a specific receiver. You can use the audio tone to make sure you are tuned to the center of the transmitter band. The last time I put one in my rocket, I used a channel 16 transmitter and had no problems tracking it. It turned out another flyer also had a transmitter on channel 16 going. What was nice was there was enough difference in frequency between them that there was a distinct difference in audio tones which made it very easy to tell the two apart even though I got strong signals from both.
 
Great information on tracking! You should have seen my face as I tracked my rocket coming down... when the tracking beep just stopped! I now get it and have learned to rotate my antenna 90 degrees and checking again. The antenna's polarization is vital to getting the most out of these units. It is a good feeling when you again hear that heartbeat!
 
I use the BRB 400 MHz tracker with an Arrow yagi. The Tx is a small unit that fits nicely in a 24 mm tube. The longest recovery I had was about 5 kilometers on my L2 cert. At that distance I lost signal once it hit the ground, and did not pick it up again until I was about 500 meters away. Still quite a walk using "traditional" (visual) tracking methods.

My favorite feature of that tracker is that you can dial in the Tx power when you program it. I would not call them "cheap" but my recent plans are to use two trackers: one at "high power" for tracking up to 500 meters, and a "low power" to track in close, and the two trackers provide redundancy in case the sled is cracked or a battery falls off or ballistic recovery or... or...

My L2 cert recovery I mentioned above I had the power set pretty low, I think 4 dBm.

I would like to include a variable attenuator, and it is on my list, but the above setup gives redundancy and should give me better ability to get fine position from far far away. I value the redundancy highly myself after losing a rather expensive bird a few years back.
 
This weekend was the first time I flew with a tracker and learned a ton. I flew my new Marshall set up in a LOC Aura at NYPower and the tracker turned out to be the key to seeing it again. NYPower had a lot of tall grass eager to swallow up the little Aura. I was a little nervous but prepped the rocket with a G126, turned on the transmitter and carried it out to the pad. It went 3400' single deploy and I got it back from the tall grass.

So my take on RDF? Heck of a lot of fun but does take practice to learn your system and to develop an idea of what’s going on. It was very exciting to hear the signal get stronger as I got closer. I enjoyed the feeling of knowing I would be coming back with the rocket if I put in the time and effort. It added a new level of challenge that was deeply rewarding.

My Aura is the little orange one in the center of the frame (2nd to the right of the speaker). Due to all the rain, the grass was VERY healthy!

DSC_0008-L.jpg


Here is how I mounted the transmitter.

DSC_0006-L.jpg
 
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You can RDF a BRB GPS regardless of lock.
No need to fly a beacon too.

Nice thing about BRB is that you are not "skirting" legality by calling the rocket you are tracking "wildlife."
 
I posted the following in another thread. I feel they are important tricks to tracking...

Chris, None of these systems are fool (not calling anyone or any product fools) proof. The rocket I found while out looking for yours had a TeleMetrum in it. I'm not sure why it became lost? I like and use radio Tx in most of my flights. I've gotten good at it over the years. I've also lost rockets with GPS and Tx in them. I did 2 flights at Mudroc 29 and 25K. recovered using Tx. Yes Black Rock will eat your radio signals close to the ground. I've lost GPS signals as high as 8K agl out there. Once on the ground it is really bad. Some of things I've earned over the years are...

The Arrow Anttenuator, anttenuates even when it's turned off! I leave it out of the system until I know my rocket has reached apogee and is not coming in hot. I then connect it into the system.

I use a cheap radio shack scanner with a 7 element yagi. I add attenuation and I'm into the squelch on the radio while I'm doing circular motions with the yagi. On the 25K flight my buddy spotted the rocket under main about 2 miles out. He was looking where I was "waving" the yagi..maybe in a 6 inch circle by that time.

I set my mains to 2500 - 3000 to give me time to dial in the rockets location. They come down pretty fast without a drogue.

Don't talk to or distract guys using a yagi!

If I'm really having a hard time hearing the signal inside the squelch..I'll close my eyes. It makes my hearing much better.

As the rocket gets close to the ground I'll take my foot and scratch a line in the dirt to the direction of the signal.

I also look for land marks in the mountain ranges past the signal.

I actively...actively meaning I won't stop tracking the rocket until it's on the ground!

It does take practice to get the knack to track rockets. If your at a launch with me come on over..I'm more then willing to have some help on my next rocket recovery adventure!

Tony

As I get older I have become more comfortable tracking Tx..
attachment.php


The following is a video of me tracking a 54mm min dia rocket. I start with my Arrow attenuator disconnected. I feel even when it's turned off it is still attenuating the signal. Once I know the rocket is not coming in ballistic I then put the attenuator on. I slowly dial in the signal until I have is very zeroed in. I keep doing this until the rocket touches down. I then look for any landmarks that will aid in my driving to the direction of the last signal.

[video=youtube;tXwHknBgleM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXwHknBgleM&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Tony
 
I've also come a long way with my BRB and Yagi antenna....
I think there's one point you made that you didn't stress enough....
Don't talk to or distract guys using a yagi!
It's imperative that you keep your focus while listening to the signal...
No one, that doesn't have the antenna in their hands understands this...

Teddy
 
I posted the following in another thread. I feel they are important tricks to tracking...

Chris, None of these systems are fool (not calling anyone or any product fools) proof. The rocket I found while out looking for yours had a TeleMetrum in it. I'm not sure why it became lost? I like and use radio Tx in most of my flights. I've gotten good at it over the years. I've also lost rockets with GPS and Tx in them. I did 2 flights at Mudroc 29 and 25K. recovered using Tx. Yes Black Rock will eat your radio signals close to the ground. I've lost GPS signals as high as 8K agl out there. Once on the ground it is really bad. Some of things I've earned over the years are...

The Arrow Anttenuator, anttenuates even when it's turned off! I leave it out of the system until I know my rocket has reached apogee and is not coming in hot. I then connect it into the system.

I use a cheap radio shack scanner with a 7 element yagi. I add attenuation and I'm into the squelch on the radio while I'm doing circular motions with the yagi. On the 25K flight my buddy spotted the rocket under main about 2 miles out. He was looking where I was "waving" the yagi..maybe in a 6 inch circle by that time.

I set my mains to 2500 - 3000 to give me time to dial in the rockets location. They come down pretty fast without a drogue.

Don't talk to or distract guys using a yagi!

If I'm really having a hard time hearing the signal inside the squelch..I'll close my eyes. It makes my hearing much better.

As the rocket gets close to the ground I'll take my foot and scratch a line in the dirt to the direction of the signal.

I also look for land marks in the mountain ranges past the signal.

I actively...actively meaning I won't stop tracking the rocket until it's on the ground!

It does take practice to get the knack to track rockets. If your at a launch with me come on over..I'm more then willing to have some help on my next rocket recovery adventure!

Tony

The following is a video of me tracking a 54mm min dia rocket. I start with my Arrow attenuator disconnected. I feel even when it's turned off it is still attenuating the signal. Once I know the rocket is not coming in ballistic I then put the attenuator on. I slowly dial in the signal until I have is very zeroed in. I keep doing this until the rocket touches down. I then look for any landmarks that will aid in my driving to the direction of the last signal.


Tony

I've never tried to track a rocket anywhere but the east coast. The conditions are so different. Your points still apply so well!

Here we seldom fly about 10K but that could mean landing over a 1/2 mile away. While you have open playa, we have corn fields, creek bottoms, woods, ponds, prairie grasses, and bogs, all in the first 1/4 mile. The distances and altitude may be much less, but the ground cover can hide a rocket very very well. Land marks are trees, corn rows, off colored bushes, fences, and if you are lucky, something tall and different just beyond where the rocket landed.

I think you would be just as successful on the right coast as the left, after a little practice.

Thanks for the great advice and tips.
 
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