Toggle switch as av bay switch?

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blueapplepaste

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I tried searching but didn't find much. I have a few of these toggle switches from an old project and wanted to see if they'd be suitable as an av bay switch?

I'm sure there's a reason I've never seen them in this capacity, but wasn't sure why. Thought about possible G's flipping the switch, bu rotating it 90 degrees would changes so the forces weren't pulling the switch out of position.

So can or can't I use this switch? Thanks!
 
I think mounting sideways would cover Gs at take off. Not clue if deployment can apply enough Gs.

If left protruding, a shock cord from apogee can clip it. This would turn off your electronics and you would not get a main. Not sure if there are real cases of this or just warning, but I heard this argument for standard slide switches.

Otherwise, if there are any internal weaknesses?
 
I would plan on mounting inside av bay and flip through a vent hole. So no chance of it getting clipped from the outside.

I have no idea about any weaknesses. It's just a generic switch I had in the parts bin.
 
If you must use it, go for it, but I'd either buy one of the rotary voltage selector switches from one of the rocketry parts sources that sell them, like Apogee, or remove one from someone's audio/video electronics unit that they've trashed.

IM0005355_large.jpg
 
I believe this switch will work great...right up to the point that it doesn't.

There's lots of switches with fantastic track records (Adrian's screw & magnetic switches, Schurter switches, etc) and they're cheap. A Schurter switch costs $4 IIRC, which is nothing when compared to the actual dollar cost, and man-hour cost, of a recovery failure.

I would't use it. But that's just me.

All the best, James
 
It seems like I have used every type of switch on the planet, toggle, slide, push buttons by the ton, screw, magnetic, twist-n-tape and for me they all work. I have never had a switch failure. In my experience you are far more likely to have a wiring issue (including loose battery feeds) or a setup error in your electronics than have a switch go bad. If you purchase reasonably high quality switches, use common sense in selecting a mounting location and have decent soldering skills then you should be fine.


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There's lots of switches with fantastic track records (Adrian's screw & magnetic switches, Schurter switches, etc) and they're cheap. A Schurter switch costs $4 IIRC, which is nothing when compared to the actual dollar cost, and man-hour cost, of a recovery failure.
Yep, Schurter style switches are internally rugged and not susceptible to actuation via G forces. Through dumpster diving or wanted adds on Craigslist for dead stereo equipment, you can even get them for free. I scavenge all of my dead consumer electronics items for useful parts before trashing them, including all screws, nuts, and bolts, etc.
 
I am rather confused, can someone explain to me the physics behind the G force effecting the switch.

In my head the physics proves that the switch should do just fine as the rocker button is in the same system as the switch body itself. I just want to see if I am going crazy or I do not understand the physics of the situation?
 
Thanks for the replies. Guess I'll go with one of the other types of switches to be safe. Was hoping to avoid having to place an order for such a cheap part and pay for shipping, but I haven't found any of those rotary switches locally.
 
I am rather confused, can someone explain to me the physics behind the G force effecting the switch.

In my head the physics proves that the switch should do just fine as the rocker button is in the same system as the switch body itself. I just want to see if I am going crazy or I do not understand the physics of the situation?

You're sitting in your car at a red light. Someone rear-ends you. Your head slams into the headrest.

Same thing.


All the best, James
 
I am rather confused, can someone explain to me the physics behind the G force effecting the switch.

In my head the physics proves that the switch should do just fine as the rocker button is in the same system as the switch body itself. I just want to see if I am going crazy or I do not understand the physics of the situation?

It's the parts that you don't see... the internal contacts inside the switch housing that are most critical. The outside switch rocker does not necessarily have to move, if the inside contacts are broken or "bounce" as the rocket accelerates.
 
It's the parts that you don't see... the internal contacts inside the switch housing that are most critical. The outside switch rocker does not necessarily have to move, if the inside contacts are broken or "bounce" as the rocket accelerates.

The only issue is the mass of those parts are rather low so the force acting upon them would be really low. I just feel I hear people talking about a switches a lot and are turning away from switches because they are afraid that their flight's profile will make the switch disconnect.

I honestly think this is a very, very rare case. Most flights do not experience the kind of flights that can break the contacts within a switch I believe. This is why I am asking, I want to be proven wrong I just want some science and proof.
 
The only issue is the mass of those parts are rather low so the force acting upon them would be really low. I just feel I hear people talking about a switches a lot and are turning away from switches because they are afraid that their flight's profile will make the switch disconnect.

I honestly think this is a very, very rare case. Most flights do not experience the kind of flights that can break the contacts within a switch I believe. This is why I am asking, I want to be proven wrong I just want some science and proof.

Please note my post #7. So, I looked up some switch contact forces. I just looked at slide switches, could have pulled up more. The typical contact force was between 50g and 300g for small, PCB type switches. Let's say a contact leaf weighs 0.1g (this is probably a stretch) then you would have to experience a force of 500 gees (and up to 3000 gees) to separate the contacts and even then one of the contacts leafs would have to be stationary while the other one was impacted by the force (not gonna happen). That is why I say the chance of having a switch fail in flight is nil. Just buy reasonably high quality switches and worry about the more important things like "operator error."
 
Since most failures result in crashes and carnage, I often wonder how much is simply operator error. Most I think is operator error, but people search for something to blame. Not really sure if failures blamed on switches have anything to back them up or they are only guesses.

Won't mind hearing some documented cases. Maybe reading altimeter data with it powering up, ready, losing power, then regaining it. All components test ok and no loose wires after recovery?
 
Please note my post #7. So, I looked up some switch contact forces. I just looked at slide switches, could have pulled up more. The typical contact force was between 50g and 300g for small, PCB type switches. Let's say a contact leaf weighs 0.1g (this is probably a stretch) then you would have to experience a force of 500 gees (and up to 3000 gees) to separate the contacts and even then one of the contacts leafs would have to be stationary while the other one was impacted by the force (not gonna happen). That is why I say the chance of having a switch fail in flight is nil. Just buy reasonably high quality switches and worry about the more important things like "operator error."

Since most failures result in crashes and carnage, I often wonder how much is simply operator error. Most I think is operator error, but people search for something to blame. Not really sure if failures blamed on switches have anything to back them up or they are only guesses.

Won't mind hearing some documented cases. Maybe reading altimeter data with it powering up, ready, losing power, then regaining it. All components test ok and no loose wires after recovery?

Ultimately this is what I am trying to figure out.

The physics behind a switch being turned off or the contacts breaking due to the force of the flight really does not add up.
 
I think you're probably right that any failure probably wouldn't be a switch malfunction. I decided I didn't want to be a guinea pig, especially since this is my first DD as well as L1 cert.

Ordered a rotary switch from missileworks and went ahead and ordered another RCC2 for whatever my next project is to make shipping a little more worth it.
 
Ultimately this is what I am trying to figure out.

The physics behind a switch being turned off or the contacts breaking due to the force of the flight really does not add up.

You have 2 effects going on that can open the contacts: Vibration and Shock. Shock will take the g levels you cite to open the contacts (duration of the shock also needs to be known/estimated), but vibration can open the contacts at well below that g level if a resonance frequency is encountered. All systems will resonate in response to a vibration input, and it is likely that a transition thorough a resonance frequency with enough amplitude can cause the switch contacts to open. We see this frequently when testing vehicle wiring – electrical connectors pass shock with no issues but momentarily fail during vibration tests. I’ve yet to see a relay, switch or connector that doesn’t have this happen, but the frequencies/amplitude that these occur at are usual well outside of what one is likely to encounter in normal applications. That said, rockets usually fall a little outside what is considered a “normal” application.

The Schurter rotary switch is rated for vibration to IEC 60068-2-6, test Fc, but without knowing the level they tested to it is hard to know if it is suitable for use in these applications. The anecdotal in-use data appears to show it is suitable, but lacking a formal failure reporting and root-cause analysis system it is hard to say for certain.
 
You have 2 effects going on that can open the contacts: Vibration and Shock. Shock will take the g levels you cite to open the contacts (duration of the shock also needs to be known/estimated), but vibration can open the contacts at well below that g level if a resonance frequency is encountered. All systems will resonate in response to a vibration input, and it is likely that a transition thorough a resonance frequency with enough amplitude can cause the switch contacts to open. We see this frequently when testing vehicle wiring – electrical connectors pass shock with no issues but momentarily fail during vibration tests. I’ve yet to see a relay, switch or connector that doesn’t have this happen, but the frequencies/amplitude that these occur at are usual well outside of what one is likely to encounter in normal applications. That said, rockets usually fall a little outside what is considered a “normal” application.

The Schurter rotary switch is rated for vibration to IEC 60068-2-6, test Fc, but without knowing the level they tested to it is hard to know if it is suitable for use in these applications. The anecdotal in-use data appears to show it is suitable, but lacking a formal failure reporting and root-cause analysis system it is hard to say for certain.

Spoken like a true quality/reliability engineer. But a question, if you are experiencing a high frequency, high amplitude vibration (again, as you pointed out, don't know really what these levels are, but large enough to kick off a resonant frequency in the switch contacts) wouldn't you likely be experiencing other problems with the overall airframe (fin flutter comes to mind) that are a more serious root cause than the secondary effect--switch bounce?
 
A couple of years ago, I bought a few locking toggle switches from a surplus dealer. One has to pull the toggle out and then throw it to turn it on or off.
I've used them mounted on a bulkhead for several apogee only MAD units. Work just fine. I suspect they would work for dual deploy too but I still like keyswitches. Only trouble now is that the same switch I bought before is commanding $6.00 a switch when I got the same thing for a buck.

Kurt
 
You have 2 effects going on that can open the contacts: Vibration and Shock. Shock will take the g levels you cite to open the contacts (duration of the shock also needs to be known/estimated), but vibration can open the contacts at well below that g level if a resonance frequency is encountered. All systems will resonate in response to a vibration input, and it is likely that a transition thorough a resonance frequency with enough amplitude can cause the switch contacts to open. We see this frequently when testing vehicle wiring – electrical connectors pass shock with no issues but momentarily fail during vibration tests. I’ve yet to see a relay, switch or connector that doesn’t have this happen, but the frequencies/amplitude that these occur at are usual well outside of what one is likely to encounter in normal applications. That said, rockets usually fall a little outside what is considered a “normal” application.

The Schurter rotary switch is rated for vibration to IEC 60068-2-6, test Fc, but without knowing the level they tested to it is hard to know if it is suitable for use in these applications. The anecdotal in-use data appears to show it is suitable, but lacking a formal failure reporting and root-cause analysis system it is hard to say for certain.

Spoken like a true quality/reliability engineer. But a question, if you are experiencing a high frequency, high amplitude vibration (again, as you pointed out, don't know really what these levels are, but large enough to kick off a resonant frequency in the switch contacts) wouldn't you likely be experiencing other problems with the overall airframe (fin flutter comes to mind) that are a more serious root cause than the secondary effect--switch bounce?


Thank you for the information! I know the physics is there, I understand that the contacts/switch components can fail. I just think its really outlandish to say that a switch was the cause of failure for a flight.

That flight profile would have to be pretty extreme, even a harmonic resonance would be a stretch. I think people need to focus more on using quality connections and less on picking a switch. Of course, I understand the thought process of using a bulletproof switch to help make you feel safe.

I just feel like this topic is coming up a lot lately and wanted to clear the air. I can safely say if your switch is being destroyed by the flight of your rocket, then the rocket itself is also being destroyed at the same time.
 
Spoken like a true quality/reliability engineer. But a question, if you are experiencing a high frequency, high amplitude vibration (again, as you pointed out, don't know really what these levels are, but large enough to kick off a resonant frequency in the switch contacts) wouldn't you likely be experiencing other problems with the overall airframe (fin flutter comes to mind) that are a more serious root cause than the secondary effect--switch bounce?
Ha, funny, but I'm not a quality or reliability engineer. I'm a staff design engineer, six sigma black belt, and certified safety engineer designing SIL-rated systems for mobile applications. In my business not knowing the fit level of any component in the system under all conditions we expect them to operate under is simply not acceptable and can result in loss of my certification.

As to your setup question: Without testing we won't know which is more serious. But I can say that making any assumption, like high frequency high amplitude vibration causing a problem is a guarantee you will be looking for the wrong problem. I've been surprised too many times to make assumptions on how a system will respond, you need to shake it and shock it to find out.

FWIW I have seen a system where it would resonate during normal use and didn't affect the machine's operation at all, but the electronics would go nuts trying to control during the resonance.
 
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