New Classification of Skill Levels...

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Kirk G

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So, I just came back from a walk through the local craft 2000 store... our version of Hobby Lobby, I suppose.
And on an end-cap facing AWAY from the register area (where one would half to go seek it out) is a four shelf display of Estes Rockets.
Most are boxes setting on shelves, but there are a few plastic or celophane packages hung on hooks. To one side is a shelf with "Boosters" and a multi-pack variety of motors...A8-3, B6-4, C6-4 and C8-4 or there abouts.

As I scan the various packages, I'm looking for skill level indication to narrow my search, and it hits me. I see NOTHING labeled Skill Level 1... NOTHING 2...only ARF, RTF and E2X... which I believe mean "Ready to Fly", "Almost Ready to Fly" and "Easy to Assemble". A few of the packages say "Completed".

Is this some sort of new packaging or NU-speak to communicate with the texting generation that they need do nothing to the rocket but launch it?
Where's the fun or craft in that?

I am seeing NOTHING on their shelf that indicates any sort of required skilll, modeling ability or wait time.:surprised:

This last weekend, I made a 45 minute drive to the next larger city in the other direction specifically to see what the Hobby Lobby had in stock, and I found EXACTLY TWO kits out of an entire wall display packed with kits on hangers, that were Level 2 assembly... a Neon Green XL kit and a Solar Explorer. ALL the rest were ARF, and E2X.

I'm beginning to think that's the future of this hobby...that the mass marketing for the masses is for "off the shelf, ready to fly" rockets...and that the expectation for anything that needs to be assembled...they are expecting and relying on older kit builders to shop over the internet...

Am I just behind the times, or has this marketing strategy already been discussed and documented here?
 
Careful. Last time I made comments on how I felt about these types of Rockets I got an Earfull about how "That's how to get new Folks interested in the Hobby" and such.


I'm a firm believer in having to Build the Rocket and spend Time with it.
I got my Xbox Addicted Son an E2X Kit, and it did'nt even hold his attention long enough for him to build it. A couple Months later I built it in all of 20 Minutes and took it out in the Yard and Sacrificed it on Purpose to the Tree Gods.
 
Yes that's what people have said . To get new people in the hobby. I scratch build mostly ,but have some from there big sale (Estes ) for the kids and for me to build them for more power like 29mm and to upscale them.
 
The RTF, ARF, and E2X are perfect for people that want to give rocketry a try. Low cost is the attraction, and lets face it: Kids are expensive. What normal parent is going to shell out $100 for a rocket kit, $90 for a launch setup, and $60 in a pair of AP motors just to find out that the kid says "Naww.....not my thing."?? None of them with any sense. They are going to aim for the cheaper kits that cost $35 for a rocket, launch pad, controller, and they'll buy a 4 pack of A3-4T motors just to get the ball rolling. If the kids love it and want to keep going, then the Skill 1 kits can come off the shelves.

BUT, some parents and kids have all the mechanical skill of a limp noodle and they couldn't read anything more complex than "Horton Hears a Whoo", THEN the E2X kits are the best bang for the buck.
 
It is all instant gratification. Build time 0-20 minutes. At least for those of us who make the choice to build there are plenty of kits out there to chose from.
 
It is all instant gratification. Build time 0-20 minutes. At least for those of us who make the choice to build there are plenty of kits out there to chose from.

That's part of it. But you'd be surprised in kids sometimes. Give them a simple skill 1 kit that's simple to build but takes some gluing and they can stick with it. My daughters have both E2X and skill 1 rockets which they have built themselves. They actually say no to RTF kits (unless it's a super cool looking one).

My girls first attempt at skill 1 kits were a pair of Quarks. They rounded the fins, glued the fins on (used my Estes Jig), painted them, applied the decals, and launched them on 1/4 A motors.

Okay, they looked like........something that Picasso would have been confused about, but they flew straight and high, and they got them back. That's how you hook them.

Now they are just venturing into 2 stage rockets.
 
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I don't think it's as much instant gratification as it is short attention span. If you're looking for more advanced things, Hobbyshop 3000 isn't the place to look. I'd equate that to looking for a fuel injector at Walmart.
 
Those kits must be selling. Plastic fin units and instant builds (a la Dirty Bird III and Alpha III) have been around since the early days of the hobby. So if these products are still around, I don't see what the big deal is. Not everyone will or ever has "gotten into" this hobby. I surmise that they must be helping to keep Estes in business.

I could go into the more negative implications and analysis of human behavior, but I really don't feel like thinking about that crap right now.

-Wolf
 
IMHO, I don't see what the big deal is. Personally I like this RTF/E2X stuff. I don't really care for building LPR's anymore... I like to fly 'em!! If I'm going to build a rocket and invest many hours of work into into the build/finishing process, It's going to be a MPR or HPR bird, so as far as I'm concerned Estes is moving in the right direction (but I know you'll all pretty much flat out disagree with me:))
 
...so as far as I'm concerned Estes is moving in the right direction ...

I don't believe Estes is "moving" in that direction, in a linear sort of way. It's more like, Estes is reaching out to anyone it can sell product to, as any good business would do.

-Wolf
 
Just getting back into rockets so stopped by my local Hobby Lobby to see what they had on the shelf and there were only RTF's and EX2's. Can't say I'm too surprised though. I see those as starter kits and if the hook gets set the next stop would be a true hobby shop or the internet.
 
I too like to build, and personally I find most rockets below skill level 2 or 3 boring, but I'm an adult with some attention span.

The RTF rockets are great for little kids. I gave my two year old who always pushes the button on "his" rockets an Estes Crayon for Christmas. All we needed to do was screw on the motor retainer/fin can, tie the shock cord to the nose cone, and attach the parachute...it took 20 min becuase he wanted to do it. After that he spent the rest of the day clutching his rocket saying over and over "I built this with my father" and giggling. When he launched it he nearly broke his face with the smile (see pic below).

I can understand the "I want to build a rocket, lets get one now" feeling, and that display (and the Hobby Lobby one near me) would be a real let down. However, take heart there is a solution...The Build Pile! Yes, you too can have a stash of kits ranging from Level 1 to Saturn 1B squirreled away in the closet or under the bed (or both). Instant gratification can be your's, with a bit of planning or impulsive ebay-ing.

Casey launching his Estes Green Crayon for the first time (Photo by Gary Briggs, lifted with permission):
casey.jpg
From back to front: me, Casey, and TRF's own "samb"
 
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Maybe I haven't checked out our Hobby Lobby or Hobby Town in a month or so but last I checked there were still plenty of skill level kits.
 
I wonder if there's money to be made in (almost) ready to fly MPR or even HPR rockets. If the first step down this path is kits for level 3 certification, then RTF rockets for level 1 and 2 (including the motor) seems a natural next step.
 
This is happening in the hobby of R/C aircraft, cars, boats, etc. Actually, it started some 40+ years ago when I think it was Lanier models produced a plastic, preformed fuselage (we called them bleach bottle airplanes). They also came with foam wing cores. Yes, a foam wing that you had to sheet, join, build the tips, add ailerons, leading and trailing edges was called almost ready to fly (ARF). These airplanes only took a week or so to build rather than a couple of months. Now almost everyone, even experienced builders, find themselves assembling airplanes instead of building them from plans or kits. I even have to admit to having a couple of ARF's laying around.
Now many of them can be assembled in just a few hours.

Ever since these have started coming out the naysayers have said that the radio control hobby was doomed. My hobby shop used to sell thirty or forty kits around Christmas time. This year I sold exactly three kits. But dozens of ARF's and RTF's (ready to fly). The hobby has changed. It has also grown.

I expect the RTF rockets are filling a void for those who don't have the time or inclination to build and would rather fly than build.

I have heard some of the same thoughts disparaging those who who build kits for HPR certification or competition rather than create their own design. I think there's room for everyone and all sorts of rockets. My concern with the big box stores will come when they replace the rocketry and airplane models section with knitting supplies. Then it's time to start worrying. Although, at my age knitting is starting to sound kind of exciting. ;)
 
This is happening in the hobby of R/C aircraft, cars, boats, etc. Actually, it started some 40+ years ago when I think it was Lanier models produced a plastic, preformed fuselage (we called them bleach bottle airplanes). They also came with foam wing cores. Yes, a foam wing that you had to sheet, join, build the tips, add ailerons, leading and trailing edges was called almost ready to fly (ARF). These airplanes only took a week or so to build rather than a couple of months. Now almost everyone, even experienced builders, find themselves assembling airplanes instead of building them from plans or kits. I even have to admit to having a couple of ARF's laying around.
Now many of them can be assembled in just a few hours.

Ever since these have started coming out the naysayers have said that the radio control hobby was doomed. My hobby shop used to sell thirty or forty kits around Christmas time. This year I sold exactly three kits. But dozens of ARF's and RTF's (ready to fly). The hobby has changed. It has also grown.

I expect the RTF rockets are filling a void for those who don't have the time or inclination to build and would rather fly than build.

I have heard some of the same thoughts disparaging those who who build kits for HPR certification or competition rather than create their own design. I think there's room for everyone and all sorts of rockets. My concern with the big box stores will come when they replace the rocketry and airplane models section with knitting supplies. Then it's time to start worrying. Although, at my age knitting is starting to sound kind of exciting. ;)

That makes sense and for me, doing scratch build for my HPR Certs. just isn't going to happen at this point. At least for 1 and 2. I already got my 1 on a kit but modified it significantly. My L2 I guess is a kit bash. I am very limited on time to do a full scratch and design. So I do what I can.
 
They have enough kits for everyone:

https://www.estesrockets.com/media//catalogs/Estes_2014_Catalog.pdf

E2X models are bought by people who would never have bought a kit or launched a model rocket. A small percentage of these tens of thousands of people who would never have built a kit or launched a model rocket will then look for more rockets, either more easy to execute models or something to build.
 
Last time at the LHS they said most of what they sell is the pre-built / near pre-built stuff. They are better movers for their target audience. Not enough people buying to justify the other stuff. Unless the LHS offers 30-40% off, I'd have no reason to buy there. Ever so, I don't have much need for LPR anything. This place used to carry some LOC kits / components. I think I may be the only person that bought any of them.
 
... Am I just behind the times, or has this marketing strategy already been discussed and documented here?

Yeah, it's been mentioned a time or three around here. But there's no rule saying you can't take a turn whipping the deceased equine's hind parts. I might suggest a couple of things you may consider doing to reverse this trend (if you feel that it needs reversing):

Buy the Estes-Cox Corporation; revamp the product line; make millions; retire to Switzerland (a little tongue in cheek I guess)

Think about what you love about building; take any opportunity you can to involve and teach the next generation those things; not always easy and it doesn't always "take" but when it does it's very rewarding.



... Casey launching his Estes Green Crayon for the first time (Photo by Gary Briggs, lifted with permission):
View attachment 160501
...

Gary got a great "eyes to the sky" shot here. I'd like to think "pink shorts" was checking the lift-off shot on his camera phone.
 
I wonder if there's money to be made in (almost) ready to fly MPR or even HPR rockets. If the first step down this path is kits for level 3 certification, then RTF rockets for level 1 and 2 (including the motor) seems a natural next step.

I see your point, but I'm not too sure about this. I think there needs to remain a right-of-passage for those venturing into MPR and HPR - that is, I think people need to go through the pains (I consider it fun) of building your own rocket and progressing through the steps of learning how to build better, etc. It seems to me that L1, L2 and L3 is much about learning build techniques and the science of flight and "forcing" a candidate to learn the ropes a bit before being allowed to fly higher power. I think NAR and Tripoli, as self-regulating associations, owe it to model/hobby rocketry to ensure that people don't simply assemble a HPR kit and "go at it". The steps are important, right?

As a BAR, I've forced myself to pace myself and enjoy and learn what I can with LPR for now - knowing that it will make getting my certs that much more enjoyable later.
 
If you don't want RTF or almost ready to fly rockets, there's plenty of kits out there that require some building. All you have to do is scroll to the top of this (or any other page on TRF) and start clicking the banner ads. There are dozens and dozens of kits from skill level 1 to 5 just a few mouse clicks away, most can be in your hands in less than a week.
 
Yea, this has been talked about...a lot.

It's simple...RTF,ARF, and E2X kits are what sell.

Those kits, starter kits, and mostly engines are what keep Estes in business, and subsidize our 'builder' kits.

Ask a few of the folks who work for Estes (they are on this message board) how the 'Classic Series' did a few years ago. Or when they brought back the Saturn V (at the request of EVERYBODY), how many sold...and how many sat....and sat...and sat until there was a 'fire sale' a year or so ago.

Everyone has grandiose ideas of how things should be run to make money...until it comes time to actually put some up.

To my knowledge, Estes is the only rocketry vendor that produces sufficient volume and revenue to make a decent amount of money at it. Most other vendors will tell you that you won't make a decent living in this hobby if it is your sole source of income.

I'd love for someone to prove me wrong.

FC
 
The local hobby shop experience that many of us (including the OP ?) remember fondly from our youth is mostly gone. But now we have the Internet ! :) And Squirrel Works !! :) :)
 
Nothing will kill a kids excitement of his first launch like a broken balsa fin. With the new plastic fin cans
there is more flying and less crying.
 
Actually, it would seem that Estes is the only manufacturer focusing ore on easy or rtf kits, as opposed to skill kits. That's why it is fortunate that in LPR we have, Semroc, Flis, and others who are mainly kit makers. It was a bit disappointing when I came back into rocketry after a brief 40 year sabbatical, that Most of my Estes favorites were relegated to history, but I did manage to snag a Saturn V last year for $60. (don't hate me)I don't get to fly as much as I would like, even when I do, how much time is actually spent flying? So for me the build is the principle bulk of the time spent in the hobby. Of course, I don't have kids... But it seems we are teaching our kids to have no attention span, these days. When I was a kid, I could spend all day with the Erector set, or any other building toy.(I had many) Is it just the times? I really do not feel that there is much to be gained from having no attention span, and I see a lot of parents reinforcing total hyperactivity in place of nurturing specific talents in their kids. A child will be in 2 or 3 sports, music, art, on and on, I know of parents who it would seem are competing with their neighbors to see just how many different activities they can have the kids in. So it is like a theme park for passions, the kids get exposed to everything, but excel in nothing. I had numerous hobbies as a child, mostly trains and rockets, as well as a variety of other building related activities. The only organized thing I did was take guitar lessons, and I have spent my whole life playing - I don't suck. Today, you go to Walmart and buy some $100 guitar and amp combo, you kid plays with it for an hour or so, and under the bed it goes. I really have no problem with rockets that are ready to fly, in and of themselves, but for play value for your kids, it is not as good of a deal as a rocket they will spend a day building before they actually launch it. :cyclops:
 
In the interest of complete disclosure, I also stopped by Joe G's hobby department last weekend on the same trip to seek out Hobby Lobby. I was looking for a specific item...an Estes Fin Guide... which I had called ahead to assure that it was there and what I wanted. So my trip was to secure that, and second, to see what additional, more challenging rockets were available to me.

I was impressed (I always am, in there) that their display for rockets is down at shoulder level or lower, two shelves wide, and clearly separated into what I will call "Low Power" vs. "more advanced". Now, because I am not familiar with the more advanced, except to note the need for larger tubes, larger motors, and higher prices, I can't comment on them. But I know they are there.

I also spied a Skill Level 5 rocket glider that caught my attention due to it's uniqueness... and I'm talking to Joe separately about it's appropriateness for my skills and experience. Maybe I will buy it, but I want to assure that THEIR Skill Level 5 indication doesn't mean "EXPERT" level or too far above me. With five steps of skill levels indicated on that company's website, I'm thinking that Estes' levels and that other company's levels are not the same. But I digress....

I also looked the lower power rockets...and I found several of the RTF, E2X, ATF smaller rockets, plus more than a couple of skill level 2 rockets. Plus I saw what I assume is a multi-pack of 10 or so Alpha rockets for a school or boy scout building party, all neatly visible and grouped together. In short, there was something for everyone.



I knew that the older, more thoughtful, skilled customer would feel more at home shopping these rockets where there was a knowledgable clerk who could answer and advise "what was what". (By comparision, at Hobby Lobby, I had to search for a clerk, asked where the rockets were, they weren't sure.... we found them together, and they left me alone. I also inquired about a clearance shelf or asile, and was told "I don't think we have one. But you can walk to the end of the store to look." When I attempted to ask about the rockets, there was NO one present who had any knowledge about them. [Now admittedly, we were in a snowstorm and everyone was watching the clock, the storm, the roads and the parking lot, so maybe it was an unfair comparison, but I still feel if I wanted to know what RTF meant, there was no one to tell me, and nothing on the Estes package nor the display to define these letters or teach me.]

When I looked over the Hobby Lobby display, I saw lots of packaged motors, at slightly higher prices than I would have expected, and EXACTLY two and only 2 rockets that were higher than any of the entry level "kits". One of which I already have in my to-build pile, and one that appears to be nothing more than a one-stage with clear plastic payload nosecone.

So, I guess my point is that it was driven home to me that I want to do my shopping at the hobby department where I have expert advice, and that THAT Hobby Lobby store has nothing to offer me.

And now I know.
 
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I have always been a proponent of supporting the local hobby shop - if you are lucky enough to have one. But I also understand that beginners in this hobby - like any other - have to adjust to the skills required before they can go further. As has been said before - many kids today, and adults as well, have an instant gratification problem - "if it can't happen in the next 20 min. I don't want anything to do with it". Just the other week I was approached by one of the guys at work who asked me how much I would charge for a finished rocket so he could go out and fly it "a couple of times" with his kids. I told him to go out and buy a kit with a launch pad, etc., build it with them - then go out and launch together. He told me that sounded like too much work. Yet when I'm working with the Boy Scouts on their merit badge for Space Exploration there are always at least a couple who want to go further than the rest - but then it seems that these kids have parents who encourage them to do things for themselves and not spend all their time in front of the TV/video game. Estes, Quest and others need to get the beginners hooked before they will have a ready audience for their harder kits - a wise business model - as long as they don't forget that there are those of us out here who do spend a lot of money on our hobbies and prefer to "build it ourselves".
 
Another problem is that most people don't know how to build anything. Kids don't learn to use tools any more. And the big box stores aren't exactly helping. I was in Home Depot yesterday in search of an Awl, and the gentleman working the tool crib had no idea what I was talking about.
 
I think people just like to complain about stuff..... Times have changed... this instant gratification.... never picked up a tool thing is not new. The whole hippie baby-boomer generation decided that we had to become "intellectuals" rather than doers thus looking down at folks like plumbers, masons and carpenters. Schools have gone to extremes to end technical career education for young folks telling them the must go to college to get a job. At the same time telling them they are worth so much more than minimum wage right out of high school. Half the folks I had working for me at my previous job had college degrees but barely had enough skill to work in a warehouse! I am simply not surprised at this trend. If you don't know how to use a ruler, or have never built anything... your probably not going to want to get into a hobby that requires you to build something.... In my younger years I worked at, then managed and eventually owned a hobby shop. I noticed then, over 20 years ago a scary tend of boys coming into the store with their fathers wanting "instant gratification" toys rather than do-it-yourself hobbies. The dads were the ones wanting to get their kids ready to go toys.. not the kids! This was a stark difference to the boys coming in with Grandpa! This pair would be looking at model "kits", tools such...


but I digress....


As much as I like kits and scratch building, there is a great need out there for ARF, RTF and easy E2X type rockets. This is probably the only way many kids and parents with no skill sets are going to ever experience our hobby. Estes is a business and needs to produce what sells and turns a profit. They still make many skill builder kits.

I buy E2X kits for my nephews still.. some look pretty cool... and we can assemble them in the limited amount of time we have to spend together. By having more rockets and launch time they have more fun and more interest in building kits over time.

Jerome
 
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