Aerotech F44 "Econo-Max" 24mm x 70mm ???

shreadvector said:

I used 23% but I forgot to mention that 47% of all statistics quoted on the web are made up.

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Winston said:

What a mess these new motors are causing on web sites for some reason.

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Was going to purchase some G74W's this morning and Hobbylinc is tacking on the $27.50 HazMat fee.

dshmel said:

Was going to purchase some G74W's this morning and Hobbylinc is tacking on the $27.50 HazMat fee.

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I've got all the EconoMax motor and delay combinations at https://www.BuyRocketMotors.com except for the G74-4 (77405) which from what I gather isn't planned for production anytime soon for some reason. We ship exclusive with FedEx; although I've tried USPS' Parcel Post software and found it difficult to use and wouldn't allow me ship packages to more than half of the addresses I tested out. The G74's are HAZMAT while the F44's aren't but perhaps it's a logistical issue using USPS's Parcel Post system. Just a thought.

Order placed!

rstaff3 said:

Order placed!

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Thank you! Will go out on Monday and you'll have a tracking number.

pyrobob said:

I've got all the EconoMax motor and delay combinations at https://www.BuyRocketMotors.com except for the G74-4 (77405) which from what I gather isn't planned for production anytime soon for some reason. We ship exclusive with FedEx; although I've tried USPS' Parcel Post software and found it difficult to use and wouldn't allow me ship packages to more than half of the addresses I tested out. The G74's are HAZMAT while the F44's aren't but perhaps it's a logistical issue using USPS's Parcel Post system. Just a thought.

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I went to the site, but it's unusable for me. There is a pop up that obscures the bulk of the screen and asks, "Love high power rocketry?" and prompts for an email address. I dismissed the pop up, but it appears again after only 5 seconds. I dismissed it about 6 times while trying to browse the products, but each time it came back after a 5-count. That's ridiculous. I know the website is new. Fix that, and I'll take another look.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I went to the site, but it's unusable for me. There is a pop up that obscures the bulk of the screen and asks, "Love high power rocketry?" and prompts for an email address. I dismissed the pop up, but it appears again after only 5 seconds. I dismissed it about 6 times while trying to browse the products, but each time it came back after a 5-count. That's ridiculous. I know the website is new. Fix that, and I'll take another look.

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It must be because you have your cookies turned off. I'm aware of this and will see if we can code a work around. Thanks.

pyrobob said:

I've got all the EconoMax motor and delay combinations at https://www.BuyRocketMotors.com except for the G74-4 (77405) which from what I gather isn't planned for production anytime soon for some reason.

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I emailed Aerotech and asked why they make 4, 6, and 9 second delays for the G74, but only 4 and 8 second delays for the F44 (because all of my sims for stuff I already own that could use an F44 sim best for a 6 second delay) and they replied that all of their motors are hand made and they will only make the 6 second delay F44 if a lot of people demand it. I'm not going to speculate on the "hand made" part as an excuse for the lack of a 6 second delay in the F44, but I have some ideas. Same reason might apply to the lack of a 4 second delay version of the G74.

As for the F44 two-pack requiring a hazmat fee even though its total propellant weight shouldn't require it, it might be due to the stupid enforcement now of previously unenforced hazmat restrictions due to the pyrogen in the included igniters, the reason Estes developed their new "starter" which contains nothing that can be considered a pyrogen under the regs. That enforcement is now required, of course, because of the many accidents that have been caused by the sub-gram quantities of pyrogen in each of the many millions of motor igniters that have been shipped with motors in the past without expensive hazmat processing paperwork (sarcasm).

"Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river." - Nakita Khrushchev in the Chicago Tribune (22 August 1963)

pyrobob said:

It must be because you have your cookies turned off. I'm aware of this and will see if we can code a work around. Thanks.

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It's happening on my iPad in Safari. Settings are to accept cookies "From Visited."

The problem doesn't happen on my iMac.

Winston said:

As for the F44 two-pack requiring a hazmat fee even though its total propellant weight shouldn't require it, it might be due to the stupid enforcement now of previously unenforced hazmat restrictions due to the pyrogen in the included igniters, the reason Estes developed their new "starter" which contains nothing that can be considered a pyrogen under the regs. That enforcement is now required, of course, because of the many accidents that have been caused by the sub-gram quantities of pyrogen in each of the many millions of motor igniters that have been shipped with motors in the past without expensive hazmat processing paperwork (sarcasm).

"Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river." - Nakita Khrushchev in the Chicago Tribune (22 August 1963)

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So if this is actually the case, will all motors that have the same type of igniter that the F44 uses, plus separate purchases of that brand of igniter by itself, occur the HAZMAT fees?

"This" is not at all the case.

BigRiJoe said:

So if this is actually the case, will all motors that have the same type of igniter that the F44 uses, plus separate purchases of that brand of igniter by itself, occur the HAZMAT fees?

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Winston said:

......As for the F44 two-pack requiring a hazmat fee even though its total propellant weight shouldn't require it, it might be due to the stupid enforcement now of previously unenforced hazmat restrictions due to the pyrogen in the included igniters, the reason Estes developed their new "starter" which contains nothing that can be considered a pyrogen under the regs. That enforcement is now required, of course, because of the many accidents that have been caused by the sub-gram quantities of pyrogen in each of the many millions of motor igniters that have been shipped with motors in the past without expensive hazmat processing paperwork (sarcasm).....

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Where did you get this information? There have been no changes in the USPS mailing or the DOT shipping regulations concerning model rocket motors and motor starters. None.

The USPS does not handle hazmat. https://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Aerotech/F44W.pdf is the certification NAR S&T generated for the AT F44 which has 19.7 g of propellant in a motor. According to the USPS rules, any rocket motor or single reload grain weighing not more than 30 grams and being individually packaged, or bagged, is not considered a hazmat in the USPS Parcel Post Ground system, provided that AT has properly made each retail package wherein containing N SU motors with not more than 30 grams of propellant where N>=1 and has the motor starters packed in a separate bag, then retail packages are mailable via USPS Parcel Post provide that the gross shipping box weight does not exceed 25 pounds. All AT has to do is to submit the paperwork to the USPS to get them approved, just as they have to do for all their other mailable motors every year.

If you to not specify that your motors be mailed to you, or if you specify UPS, FEDEX or any other commercial carrier as the delivery method, you will be assessed a hazmat charge (for any size motor) because DOT does not allow for any exemptions to their class 1 hazmat policy. Again there are not quantity exceptions for Class 1 hazmat materials in the DOT regulations so you will be charge a hazmat fee even for micro-max motors, and it's the same fee whether your shipping a single micro-max motor, or a truckload of CTI Pro150 0 motors.

Got it?

Bob

ThirstyBarbarian said:

It's happening on my iPad in Safari. Settings are to accept cookies "From Visited."

The problem doesn't happen on my iMac.

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Weird. I'll pass it along.

Has anyone flown any of these F44 Motors yet? This Thread keeps revolving around Availability and Marketing.
Any Launch Reports?

bobkrech said:

Where did you get this information?

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From someone who should know. He said it was something longstanding that had not been enforced previously. Don't know if it's something certain to be enforced or something that only might be enforced.

Winston said:

From someone who should know. He said it was something longstanding that had not been enforced previously. Don't know if it's something certain to be enforced or something that only might be enforced.

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It is an urban legend. It is wrong. He is wrong. Period.

Winston said:

As for the F44 two-pack requiring a hazmat fee even though its total propellant weight shouldn't require it, it might be due to the stupid enforcement now of previously unenforced hazmat restrictions due to the pyrogen in the included igniters, the reason Estes developed their new "starter" which contains nothing that can be considered a pyrogen under the regs.

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Estes changed the composition of their igniter/starter material so that current hazmat regulations would not apply to the product and therefore make shipping the starters easier and cheaper.
There were not any new or 'unenforced' hazmat regulations involved.

shreadvector said:

It is an urban legend. It is wrong. He is wrong. Period.

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Initiator001 said:

Estes changed the composition of their igniter/starter material so that current hazmat regulations would not apply to the product and therefore make shipping the starters easier and cheaper.
There were not any new or 'unenforced' hazmat regulations involved.

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I thought something changed in the regulatory and\or enforcement landscape in the 2012/2013 timeframe that prompted Estes to change the composition and nomenclature of "those things formerly known as igniters, now called starters". If not, why fix what ain't broke?

Urban legend ? Delirium tremens ?? Hookah dreams ???

samb said:

I thought something changed in the regulatory and\or enforcement landscape in the 2012/2013 timeframe that prompted Estes to change the composition and nomenclature of "those things formerly known as igniters, now called starters". If not, why fix what ain't broke?

Urban legend ? Delirium tremens ?? Hookah dreams ???

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Nothing changed.

Igniters required hazmat shipping. That was annoying. Now starters can be put in any box or envelope and mailed with no special markings or procedures .

Also , as an added bonus, starters are less likely to be used by terrorists when the build bombs.

shreadvector said:

Nothing changed.

Igniters required hazmat shipping. That was annoying. Now starters can be put in any box or envelope and mailed with no special markings or procedures .

Also , as an added bonus, starters are less likely to be used by terrorists when the build bombs.

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I still don't understand. LPR Estes motor igniters included with the motors never required and still don't require hazmat fees to ship. If that pyrogen doesn't require it, why didn't they just stick with that for their new 29mm motors? Also, I note on Hobbylinc that Q2G2 igniters require Hazmat fees whereas First Fire Jrs and Estes Sonics don't. Is there a specific oxidizer or some formula component that makes one hazmat and another not? With the Sonic igniters not requiring hazmat, we're back to that same question - why didn't Estes just use that compound or the apparently hazmat exempt LPR igniter pyrogen instead of developing a new compound for their 29mm motor starter which they say is not considered a pyrogen?

As Shakespeare said, "The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers."

Initiator001 said:

Estes changed the composition of their igniter/starter material so that current hazmat regulations would not apply to the product and therefore make shipping the starters easier and cheaper.
There were not any new or 'unenforced' hazmat regulations involved.

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See my post #80 above.

Winston said:

Also, I note on Hobbylinc that Q2G2 igniters require Hazmat fees...

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Doesn't say so at the moment, not that they have any stock. Hobbylinc is not a good source for actual hazmat requirements. They often make mistakes. And don't confuse items that say "HAZ" in the item name (which they often use for items that have to ship USPS ground but not hazmat) with items that say "HAZMAT ONLY" under shipping.

Since I got a PM and obviously folks have not read all the words in this PDF, I suggest you stop, take several minutes to calm down and take deep breaths and meditate or do whatever you need to do, then open the document, print it if necessary, and read all of the words in the order they are written and do not skip any of the words.

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

All rocket motors with pyrotechnic propellant and pyrogen tipped igniters are "HAZMAT" items, but some can be shipped by USPS by following the procedures explained in the PDF.

The igniters included with motors are covered by the same rules, and are part of the motor system. Replacement igniters are also covered, but igniters made by another company that does not make motors and does not include igntiers with those motors are not considered part of the motor system or replacement parts.

Estes pyrogen igniter packs can be shipped just like their 30 gram or less propellant motors, but that means strictly following the USPS regulations with lots of markings and paperwork.

Estes Starters have no pyrogen and can be mailed in an unmarked envelope or package with no HAZMAT restrictions of any kind.

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

shreadvector said:

Nothing changed.

Igniters required hazmat shipping. That was annoying. Now starters can be put in any box or envelope and mailed with no special markings or procedures .

Also , as an added bonus, starters are less likely to be used by terrorists when the build bombs.

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Let's say this again, just to be perfectly clear:

HOBBYLINC IS WRONG A HUGE AMOUNT OF THE TIME.

If you want to be wrong, be sure to look at what Hobbylinc says and then assume it is correct.

shreadvector said:

Since I got a PM and obviously folks have not read all the words in this PDF, I suggest you stop, take several minutes to calm down and take deep breaths and meditate or do whatever you need to do, then open the document, print it if necessary, and read all of the words in the order they are written and do not skip any of the words.

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

All rocket motors with pyrotechnic propellant and pyrogen tipped igniters are "HAZMAT" items, but some can be shipped by USPS by following the procedures explained in the PDF.

The igniters included with motors are covered by the same rules, and are part of the motor system. Replacement igniters are also covered, but igniters made by another company that does not make motors and does not include igntiers with those motors are not considered part of the motor system or replacement parts.

Estes pyrogen igniter packs can be shipped just like their 30 gram or less propellant motors, but that means strictly following the USPS regulations with lots of markings and paperwork.

Estes Starters have no pyrogen and can be mailed in an unmarked envelope or package with no HAZMAT restrictions of any kind.

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

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Thanks for posting those links. They will come in handy for me in the VERY near future.
Mr. Bob
Starlight Dude
Countyline Hobbies
Grovertown, IN
574-540-1124

I wonder if Hobbylinc didn't read all the words.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I wonder if Hobbylinc didn't read all the words.

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Or in the right order...

chadrog said:

Or in the right order...

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Or forgot to breathe and meditate...

New here, but wanted to reply to the thread. I bought 4 of the F44's from Tower a few weeks ago and launched two of them this past weekend in the night fury (black rocket) and Meatlug (the 3" bodied large rocket). They go up hot and fast... but Rocksim altitudes and my own observations show them not that much off of the AT E50. I put an order in for the G74s as well, but those have not been delivered yet.
For the F44's, no Hazmat fee. All rockets in the photos