mini launch rail

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So I have recently been thinking about what I call the "launch lug conundrum," which is basically this set of ideas that I have about how stiff a launch rod needs to be for a specific rocket and how big a launch lug is acceptable on a rocket. In essence, I want to use bigger launch rods to reduce rod whip, but also want to reduce the size of my launch lug. These goals are mutually exclusive, however, if you use launch rods.

Rails do not have this limitation because the rail goes around the rail button,rather than the other way around. But conventional rail needs rail buttons that are too big to go on rockets powered by anything less than an H motor in my opinon. I want to be able to launch very small rockets ( like 13mm motor size ) off of a rail.

So I am thinking of developing very small rail buttons and small gague rails. Basically, what I envision is a rail with three or four diffrent gauges on it to accomodate annything from a quarter A to a high thrust G on one rail. The four gauges would use buttons of mabey one, two, three, and four millimeters in diameter.

Do you guys think this is a good idea?

I am aware of that rocketgolf thing and their c rails.
 
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Also, dont just say that I need a launch tower. I know that is basically the best solution. I dont want one because I don't want to have to carry around a rocket scaffold everywhere I go. Also, they look dorky and make for poor liftoff photos. And you have to adjust them every time. Just..........no. Not an option.
 
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So I have recently been thinking about what I call the "launch lug conundrum," which is basically this set of ideas that I have about how stiff a launch rod needs to be for a specific rocket and how big a launch lug is acceptable on a rocket. In essence, I want to use bigger launch rods to reduce rod whip, but also want to reduce the size of my launch lug. These goals are mutually exclusive, however, if you use launch rods.

Rails do not have this limitation because the rail goes around the rail button,rather than the other way around. But conventional rail needs rail buttons that are too big to go on rockets powered by anything less than an H motor in my opinon. I want to be able to launch very small rockets ( like 13mm motor size ) off of a rail.

So I am thinking of developing very small rail buttons and small gague rails. Basically, what I envision is a rail with three or four diffrent gauges on it to accomodate annything from a quarter A to a high thrust G on one rail. The four gauges would use buttons of mabey one, two, three, and four millimeters in diameter.

Do you guys think this is a good idea?

I am aware of that rocketgolf thing and their c rails.

Most of us flying Larger models are currently using what are commonly called 10-10 rails or by their proper name Aluminum T-Slotted Framing, which are actually extruded aluminum Heavy duty warehouse rack building parts. McMaster-Carr and other Industrial Supply stores carry these items in 2,4,6 & 8ft lengths the smaller 1" square size can have two or four slots. For Stiffness I Prefer the Two slot Single inline profile Cat #47065T118, Others like the 4 slot Cat.# 46065T101 both sell for exactly the same price 6' @ 19.79.
Either of these Rails has .255" opening that easily fit 1/4" dia body slide buttons.

Estes Old 1970's C-Rails were 3/8" square .063 Wall Aluminum channels with a 1/8" opening in 18" lengths. Used to be sold in pairs of two and the spring steel coupling. Haven't seen anything like that in more the 30years. I think I have a photo of two of my C-rail and may have a couple of the 1010 rail which I think is what TopRamen launches his paper airplanes from:)

If you want to make your own C-Rail it might be possible to find a 1/2" Square Aluminum tube as route or table saw 1/8" slot down the middle of one side. Good luck finding Tiny Square tube anymore.

C-Launch Rails &4 pad designs(EstesCat pg56)_1968.jpg

1010 Launch Rail-c1_Install Threaded .25in Stainless Pin_11-02-13.jpg
 
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I have some Estes C rails, and here is a drawing w/ some measurements. Somewhere I read they were curtain rails for RVs, but not sure if that is true. Would love to find some more, longer lengths. Sometimes the spring connector could catch on your lug. Neat thing about using a launch lug glued to a stand off, you could fly off either type of launcher.

Estes_C_Channel.jpg
 
Those old Estes “C-Rails” were great. All you needed to do was glue a regular 1/8” launch lug onto a thin standoff and your rocket was good for both rods and the rail.

Like many I wish they were still available.
 
Yea. I think you hit on something there Rocketguy101.

Here's a link to a whole list if small RV rails that would probably work.

RV Curtain Tracks

David
 
Those old Estes “C-Rails” were great. All you needed to do was glue a regular 1/8” launch lug onto a thin standoff and your rocket was good for both rods and the rail.

Like many I wish they were still available.

Does anyone know why they are no longer available?
 
I think this idea is great. We do need a smaller standard that is practical and efficient for that area of rocketry. I would like to see continued ideas and then pick a standard that we can all move forward to support as clubs. We have been plagued with some standards that would have made more sense had we thought about it before we got established with bad choices but stuck with. I would Like to hear from Bob Krech on this subject. Bob were are u we need straight, small, strong, cost effective, low drag, low profile. What should we make the standard. Its go time! Larry W
 
For LP I think we need rail guides that can be glued on the exterior surface of the tube without being mounted thru the airframe, at least as an option. Oh, and an easy way to get a cheap pad up and running.


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Also, dont just say that I need a launch tower. I know that is basically the best solution. I dont want one because I don't want to have to carry around a rocket scaffold everywhere I go. Also, they look dorky and make for poor liftoff photos. And you have to adjust them every time. Just..........no. Not an option.
You said "don't", therefore I must. Towers do not have to be a large scaffold. Mine is two 12"x12" sheets of 1/2 ply with seven 18mm holes drilled in each. One hole in the center. Then two holes spaced from the center hole for 13mm, two holes for 18mm and two holes for 24mm. The sheets separated by 12" 2x4s and some bracing. I drop a piece of conduit in the center hole and two pieces in the outer holes of whatever size I am flying. To change diameters, move the outer conduits to different holes. For a tiny BT-5 with an A10 motor, a 3' long conduit works fine. I normally use a 5' piece which gives a 3'+ tower (1' in the base plus standoff). The base is a handy box for carrying stuff. The conduit is transported out of the base. Assembles and adjusts in seconds. If you want a tower for larger tubes or 4 fins, you can only get two sizes per base.
I call it a Mike Tower. Yeah, I'm proud of this. And I bet someone thought of it 50 years ago.
 
Over on the mini button thread Uncle Scary posted about Openbeam rails which are 15mm x 15mm... Amazon lists a 6 pack of 1 meter black Openbeam rails around $70 (amazon prime), so a little over $11 each...this would be a nice LPR alternative (maybe even smaller MPR). Small buttons to go along with this would be really nice!!!

Here is the Openbeam "1515" along with the 10mm Makerbeam rail, a standard 1010 rail button, and the Estes C rail comparison....I am really liking the 1515 rail...it is close to the Estes rail, you might be able to use a launch lug on a stand-off like the Estes rail of old (sorry rail-buttons :blush:). A 3/16 lug is too large.

10mmRailButton.jpg
 

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Over on the mini button thread Uncle Scary posted about Openbeam rails which are 15mm x 15mm... Amazon lists a 6 pack of 1 meter black Openbeam rails around $70 (amazon prime), so a little over $11 each...this would be a nice LPR alternative (maybe even smaller MPR). Small buttons to go along with this would be really nice!!!

Here is the Openbeam "1515" along with the 10mm Makerbeam rail, a standard 1010 rail button, and the Estes C rail comparison....I am really liking the 1515 rail...it is close to the Estes rail, you might be able to use a launch lug on a stand-off like the Estes rail of old (sorry rail-buttons :blush:). A 3/16 lug is too large.

That is confusing as heck! A 1515 rail is the 8020 1.5" square rail used for large HPR builds.

Also the picture shows a rail cross section that clearly has sharp edges at the button entry point--I'd say that one is a no-go for wear issues.

A 20mm standard 8020 rail is only $13 for a 4' section on McMaster-Carr. This is quantity one and McMaster-Carr isn't the cheapest. Bundled product in quantity elsewhere probably brings the price down even more.
 
That is confusing as heck! A 1515 rail is the 8020 1.5" square rail used for large HPR builds.

Also the picture shows a rail cross section that clearly has sharp edges at the button entry point--I'd say that one is a no-go for wear issues.

A 20mm standard 8020 rail is only $13 for a 4' section on McMaster-Carr. This is quantity one and McMaster-Carr isn't the cheapest. Bundled product in quantity elsewhere probably brings the price down even more.

Thats what I get for posting after midnight :facepalm: that second image is a Makerbeam part (far right in the comparison view) and yes it appears to have sharp edges as discussed in the mini button thread....the Openbeam has rounded edges, in fact they appear to be more rounded than the Estes C rail. It is the center profile, 15mm x 15mm

Edit: here is the Openbeam profile w/ a #4 pan head screw installed. BTW I didn't name the stuff, these guys did https://www.openbeamusa.com/about/ ;)
 

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I ordered some of the 15mm Openbeam rails. A 1/8" launch lug barely fits but will slide (though it will be draggy). A #4 screw fits nicely (I don't have any nylon, and my local ACE doesn't carry nylon screws smaller than #6). Here is a picture of the lug in the 15mm rail, and a picture of the lug in an Estes "C" rail...

The 80/20 20mm rail proposed in this thread along with the proposed mini rail buttons will be excellent!
 

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I'm glad I found this thread. I used to fly off of 'C' Rail, and just started thinking about what might work as a modern substitute. My first use was on an Estes Sprint, (0.976" BT) and I used the nylon screws. It worked so well I converted my Bandit and a few other completed rockets to use it as well.

The OpenBeam product appears to be just what I'm looking for to use with LPR. The extra slots will allow attachment to a frame for stiffness, without the need for welding skills.
 
We Now have commercially available Mini and Micro rail buttons that are a perfect fit for 8020 (20mm) x 48" rails (Mini Buttions) or Makerbeam 10mm square x 900mm and 1500mm long rails that fit the micro buttons.

Over the summer experiments have shown these little 10mm x 900mm Makerbeam rails can easily fly model as heavy as 3.3lbs with D, E & F BP motors.

Randy's Mini and Micro Rail buttons are the Coolest addition to my building box since Micro Maxx came around:)

Mini 8020-b_20mm 2-Slot Rail (.1875in mounting pin)_03-14.JPG

Mini 8020-e_20mm Rail Stops 8-32 x .25in Nylon_03-31-14.JPG

Mini & Micro 20 & 10mm Rails with launcher mt pins_03-14.jpg

Mini Rail Button-a1_WhiteNylon&Steel Close LPR button pts_03-28-14.jpg

Mini Rail Button-c3_Stock Blk Button BT-55 on 20mmRail(Gap)_03-28-14.JPG

Micro Rail Button-a3_.063 white on T3(.375in) Model_03-28-14.jpg

Micro Rail Button-a4_White Button T3 on 10mmRail(Gap)_03-28-14.jpg
 
We Now have commercially available Mini and Micro rail buttons that are a perfect fit for 8020 (20mm) x 48" rails (Mini Buttions) or Makerbeam 10mm square x 900mm and 1500mm long rails that fit the micro buttons.

Over the summer experiments have shown these little 10mm x 900mm Makerbeam rails can easily fly model as heavy as 3.3lbs with D, E & F BP motors.

Randy's Mini and Micro Rail buttons are the Coolest addition to my building box since Micro Maxx came around:)

Gee, that looks great...should I pm you for more info?
 
Our club got a closeout deal on seven 4 foot 20mm rails from 8020 for mid power rockets and 2 of the Makerbeam rails for low power rockets. We already had a nice set of rails for high power rockets too. We used camera tripods to make mid power pads. We found that the leg were too close together and the pad was too tippy so the brace on the legs was lengthen 3 inches and that gave it a much more stable stance.new mid power pads 001.jpg new mid power pads 003.jpg 100_0288.jpg
 
How are you holding the tail in place on the latter photo in the orange work stand? Thanks.
 
How are you holding the tail in place on the latter photo in the orange work stand? Thanks.

I cut two wood blocks that were dadoed to fit the 1010 rail and attached them loosely to each side of the clamp part of the stand. After inserting the 1010 rail the clamp is tighten down on the blocks and the rail is secured. Here is rough diagram of the end of the two blocks that hold the rail.Capture.PNG
 
How are you holding the tail in place on the latter photo in the orange work stand? Thanks.

The Rockwell Jaw Stands are drilled and a carriage head bolt is installed with a wing nut to hold the rail in place. And here is a photo of the 20 mm rail before being installed on the tripod003.jpg
 
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