Project - Vertical Land 5.38" Rocket/Octocopter

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I wrote my code for Arduino last night. I built a prototype on my solder-less breadboard this evening. With a little tweaking of my code, I got it to work as desired, lighting up LEDs in place of the functions for now.

My daughter painted the part of the scale version I have completed for me. I am still waiting on a few things to complete the scale version.

20140107_234005_zpsctr8rwje.jpg


20140104_213933_zpsij6aqxqz.jpg
 
Last edited:
I must admit I admire the amount of work you are putting into this.
That said Vertical landing is really quite easy. I've done this from time to time.
Leave out the chute or ejection charges.
Your rocket will land vertically without all the work! :wink:
 
I must admit I admire the amount of work you are putting into this.
That said Vertical landing is really quite easy. I've done this from time to time.
Leave out the chute or ejection charges.
Your rocket will land vertically without all the work! :wink:

LOL
 
Check out two threads in the Watering Hole.

One, about some Multicopter fliers who built a nearly full sized TARDIS. A great project. But it crashed.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...ne-Flying-TARDIS-Rotor-Craft&highlight=tardis

See my comments about why I think it went out of control.

Basically, by being so nose-heavy, with so much side area making it overstable , there would be some critical sideways velocity it would reach, where the aerodynamic stability would take over as the Multi-Copter control thrust would no longer be able to keep it pointed "up". And I think that's what happened, I think they tried to fly it horizontally too fast, it tilted over too far for too much velocity and the aerodynamic loads trying to "Lawn Dart" it took over.

The other thread to see is this one:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...et-Within-100ft-From-the-Launch-Pad-Everytime

It has some other messages that might be of value.

So, to comment about this specifically, quite an impressive undertaking. But I do think that you may need to consider the same CG and CP issues that made that Tardis uncontrollable did not happen with this too. Now, yours does not have nearly as much side area as the Tardis, and you have a lot more "leverage" (or span ratio) than that Tardis. So, it will have a better chance. But still it's pretty nose-heavy.

Where will the CP be when deployed?

One possible mod that would not cause a major revamp would be to add some "fins" to at least 4 of the deployable rotor arms, at the tips, facing "up" when deployed. So for boost, those fins would help with the stability. When deployed, they would shift the CP more forward. What I'm not sure of is at what max boost velocity it will have, as adding fins on the arms like that might introduce some flutter that might let the fins shred off. Maybe instead of 4 fins of "X" area each, 8 fins (one on all arms) of 50% "X" area each, that would reduce the boost flutter/shred issue.

I think the ideal CG/CP for these things is with the CP a little bit above the CG so it will want to stabilize tail-down. Or if not that, then the CG/CP in the same place. The more the CG is above the CP, the more trouble the Multicopter control will have during a fast sideways fall.

If you have enough leverage, it may be able to overcome it. Also, it would help, at apogee, to deploy and for the Multi-copter system to stabilize it upright to begin with, not falling down nose first or sideways at fast speed.

Another thing, and maybe I missed this. Will it be sequenced so that the props do not spin under power until a delay of say one second or two for the arms to fully deploy? What just occurred to me is that if simultaneously the props would spin up as the arms start to deploy, then many if not all of the props would collide with the other arms or other prop blades. Which could lead to broken props, damaged arms, or arms tangled, making it uncontrollable.

This project just screams for you to put a Keychain cam on board, looking down from near the nose cone, what an incredible video that ought to be. Maybe also a 2nd one at the tail looking up.

Oh, be prepared to have somebody MOVE your launch pad away after liftoff, if you do an automated GPS landing, because........ think about it :)

But leave something flat on the ground under the pad, so if it does do an accurate GPS landing, the video would show how close it was.

- George Gassaway
 
Last edited:
Check out two threads in the Watering Hole.

One, about some Multicopter fliers who built a nearly full sized TARDIS. A great project. But it crashed.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...ne-Flying-TARDIS-Rotor-Craft&highlight=tardis

See my comments about why I think it went out of control.

Basically, by being so nose-heavy, with so much side area making it overstable , there would be some critical sideways velocity it would reach, where the aerodynamic stability would take over as the Multi-Copter control thrust would no longer be able to keep it pointed "up". And I think that's what happened, I think they tried to fly it horizontally too fast, it tilted over too far for too much velocity and the aerodynamic loads trying to "Lawn Dart" it took over.

The other thread to see is this one:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...et-Within-100ft-From-the-Launch-Pad-Everytime

It has some other messages that might be of value.

So, to comment about this specifically, quite an impressive undertaking. But I do think that you may need to consider the same CG and CP issues that made that Tardis uncontrollable did not happen with this too. Now, yours does not have nearly as much side area as the Tardis, and you have a lot more "leverage" (or span ratio) than that Tardis. So, it will have a better chance. But still it's pretty nose-heavy.

Where will the CP be when deployed?

My thought is that the quad in the link was under-powered on top of the other problems you mention.
The CP and CG is marked on the pictures. The CG is about even with the rotors. The CP is below.
I get what your saying and I will be testing this on a smaller model by adding fins to my test model quadcopter which is a SK450 frame. I will just add a fin can to the model and see how it flies.



One possible mod that would not cause a major revamp would be to add some "fins" to at least 4 of the deployable rotor arms, at the tips, facing "up" when deployed. So for boost, those fins would help with the stability. When deployed, they would shift the CP more forward. What I'm not sure of is at what max boost velocity it will have, as adding fins on the arms like that might introduce some flutter that might let the fins shred off. Maybe instead of 4 fins of "X" area each, 8 fins (one on all arms) of 50% "X" area each, that would reduce the boost flutter/shred issue.

I think the ideal CG/CP for these things is with the CP a little bit above the CG so it will want to stabilize tail-down. Or if not that, then the CG/CP in the same place. The more the CG is above the CP, the more trouble the Multicopter control will have during a fast sideways fall.

I do like that idea, but I would be afraid that the fins would flutter too much.

Another thing, and maybe I missed this. Will it be sequenced so that the props do not spin under power until a delay of say one second or two for the arms to fully deploy? What just occurred to me is that if simultaneously the props would spin up as the arms start to deploy, then many if not all of the props would collide with the other arms or other prop blades. Which could lead to broken props, damaged arms, or arms tangled, making it uncontrollable.
I don't want the rotors to spin util they are deployed. I intend to have a sensor showing when all arms are deployed fully. The start of deployment should start before apogee, but not spinning rotors.



This project just screams for you to put a Keychain cam on board, looking down from near the nose cone, what an incredible video that ought to be. Maybe also a 2nd one at the tail looking up.

Oh, be prepared to have somebody MOVE your launch pad away after liftoff, if you do an automated GPS landing, because........ think about it :)

But leave something flat on the ground under the pad, so if it does do an accurate GPS landing, the video would show how close it was.

- George Gassaway
I do intend to have cameras on board and possibly FPV

Also I don't intend on the landing spot to be near the pad. I plan on the landing spot to be in the field next to the pads. I think that it would be to risky to try to land in an area with a bunch of pads.

What I planned on doing was laying something out to make the intended landing spot so that I can see if it hit its mark.

Thanks for the links and your input. They are very much appreciated.
 
I have started on designing the AvBay. Everything past the top platform in the pic below will be inside the nose cone. I still have a ways to go to finish, but here is what I have so far.
The purple is the battery and the black rectangular prism is the flight controller (3DR Pixhawk).
I am using OpenSCAD to design the AvBay.

The second pic is the template for mounting the retracts to the lower centering ring of the AvBay.

The third pic is the motor position looking toward the aft centering ring.
I'm using DeltaCad to design the templates for the rings.


Avbay1_zps5016f48a.jpg


centeringringaft_zpsaa63a2ea.jpg


centeringringlower_zpsfdf9609a.jpg
 
About deploying the motor/prop booms by using retract servos:

Are you using just the servos alone, for locking out the booms at full deployment?

It is easy to strip the gears of servos, unless they are metal gears (with metal gears, harder to strip, but still possible). I'm wondering if the extreme leverage , plus extreme mass of the booms with motors and props at the ends, may be too much for the retract servos to handle. Because those retract servos are used for very short gear legs, with relatively lightweight wheels, with the gear mechanism designed to take the landing loads and for that gear mechanism to take most of the loads that try to fold the gear back up. So the servo is mostly used for moving the relatively lightweight short landing gear up-down, but not for structural loads.

At the very least, you would probably want to have the booms "lock" at full deployment. Could be as simple as the booms hitting a "bumper" so they cannot extend any farther up. Or use some Kevlar cord running diagonally from a few inches from the hinge point, so the line acts like a guy wire to stop the extension.

Back to the retract servos, you might want to program the Arduino to slow down as the servo reaches full extension, so it would not come to a dead stop at a fast speed, possibly damaging the servo or over stressing the hinge assembly. Might also want to make it start the deployment a little slower (ramp up the speed) so that there is less stress on the servo to get the heavy motor/prop at the end moving.

Sort of like slow, faster, faster, really fast for most of the travel, start slowing a bit, slow, very slow, stopped at full deploy.

And for preparing for flight, you probably want it to retract really slowly as you make sure all the props are aligned. Possibly even retract one by one, as I could see it being tricky to have all 8 props aligned at the same moment if all 8 booms folded at the same time. Maybe even two little pushbuttons on the model surface: "Retract slow", and "Stop retract and move back the other way" to help with the prep (I have a chart reorder project, with a stepper motor that drives the paper. I am so glad I added the capability to press a button to make the thing back itself up when the paper drive is jammed and I need to undo it). Or perhaps a low-tech solution, small rubber bands to hold the props aligned properly for folding, then remove or cut away the bands after folding for flight.

Actually, I wonder if you really need 8 retract servos. Lots of people fly rockets using helicopter recovery (autorotation), where suitably strong rubber bands pull the blades out once the blades are released for deployment (most use a burning thread for release. you could use one servo to trigger a latch to let go of al the blades). A more out of the box method would be to use a continuous rotation servo with a spool on it acting like a winch drum, to pull 8 kevlar cords. Those cords would go from the bottom up near the nose cone, and exit the cone thru 8 holes, with tiny pulleys (or perhaps simply rounded grommets if there would not be much friction), so the cords could pull the booms up and out. However, there would be a need to add some little standoffs near the hingeline, to help give the pull cord some leverage to begin the early deployment.

Here are links for one of my helicopter recovery designs, on two pages. you can see how it uses rubber bands, and the standoff that is needed for leverage:

https://georgesrockets.com/GRP/CONTEST/Plans-C/Copter/Rotaroc_13mm_1.gif

https://georgesrockets.com/GRP/CONTEST/Plans-C/Copter/Rotaroc_13mm_2.gif

And a page I put together showing how to build it:

https://georgesrockets.com/GRP/CONTEST/Plans-C/Copter/CopterPlan/Rotaroc-A.html

Your model is totally unique. But they do share the same basic problem of how to get long objects to deploy and lock out. Although for one this big, perhaps the retracts are best. But if you did a smaller one, you could consider doing a lighter way to get them deployed.

Looking at the cross section drawing of all 8 motors folded for launch, I wonder if you have figured out a way to keep props from accidentally rotating a few degrees and then the outer part of the prop blades getting hung with the vertical structural beams of the rocket? Maybe simply some little 1/64" ply fences glued to the beams, near the prop tip areas, so the prop tips could not rotate enough to get hung. I wonder about this since during the rocket boost, any yaw of the rocket at all (and all fin-stabilized rockets do yaw, it's a matter of how much) can produce an airflow vector to the side that could cause some of the props to want to rotate. Or even just vibration. So, one of those "If it can fail, it probably will" kind of things you may need to look at if you have not already addressed it.

- George Gassaway
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all your input, it is much appreciated.

I am not planning on using regular servos for extending the booms. Here is a link to them: https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking...th_Metal_Trunnion_33mm_x_35mm_Mount_2pc_.html
These are way stronger than regular servos. I will be testing them on a platform with a boom, motor, and prop attached at speed(mounted to my truck going down the road) to make sure they are up to the task.
The way these work is they have 2 positions extended and retracted. Once the signal is sent, they fully extend until they can't extend anymore and they hit a stop. Once they hit the stop, the circuit inside cuts the power. I think this works something like auto window down or up in a car. It don't cut the power just because it hit something that told it to stop, it cuts the power because it trips something in the circuit like a auto-reset fuse. I was testing on my arduino and every time it would stop, it would reset my arduino because it was too much for it. so I started testing with 2 aa batteries for the retract power and then the signal as well as another ground hooked to the arduino. Using the aa batteries, I could put my finger under it and cause it to stop before fully retracting(much like auto-windows in a car). I then hooked up the multirotor battery with an adjustable voltage regulator on it and set it as 5.6v. I tried stopping it with my finger and smashed the crap out of my finger :bangpan: . Not going to do that again. So next is to test it in a real situation like on my truck in the wind with a prop attached and see if it has the power to pull it up(which I am confident that it will). Also the case of the retract will stick out and catch the boom as well.

I have thought about the issue of retracing them back into the body as well. I was thinking rubber bands for that to hold them in place while they fold in. I don't think there is any way to slow them down or speed them up besides changing voltage(lower voltage makes them weaker). I think these are meant to go full force in and out.

I have thought about there being some way to hold them in place as well. I haven't quit got that part figured out yet. I think I am going to dry fit everything together and then come up with a plan from there.

I plan to test everything I can before installing it on the rocket. I plan to test the code by simulating the flight on my quadcopter and see if everything works as planned before flying the rocket and then I plan to fly the rocket with only the arduino, retracts, and altemeter to see if it does everything it should before sending it up with everything on it. Anything I can test before hand, I will.

About deploying the motor/prop booms by using retract servos:

Are you using just the servos alone, for locking out the booms at full deployment?

It is easy to strip the gears of servos, unless they are metal gears (with metal gears, harder to strip, but still possible). I'm wondering if the extreme leverage , plus extreme mass of the booms with motors and props at the ends, may be too much for the retract servos to handle. Because those retract servos are used for very short gear legs, with relatively lightweight wheels, with the gear mechanism designed to take the landing loads and for that gear mechanism to take most of the loads that try to fold the gear back up. So the servo is mostly used for moving the relatively lightweight short landing gear up-down, but not for structural loads.

At the very least, you would probably want to have the booms "lock" at full deployment. Could be as simple as the booms hitting a "bumper" so they cannot extend any farther up. Or use some Kevlar cord running diagonally from a few inches from the hinge point, so the line acts like a guy wire to stop the extension.

Back to the retract servos, you might want to program the Arduino to slow down as the servo reaches full extension, so it would not come to a dead stop at a fast speed, possibly damaging the servo or over stressing the hinge assembly. Might also want to make it start the deployment a little slower (ramp up the speed) so that there is less stress on the servo to get the heavy motor/prop at the end moving.

Sort of like slow, faster, faster, really fast for most of the travel, start slowing a bit, slow, very slow, stopped at full deploy.

And for preparing for flight, you probably want it to retract really slowly as you make sure all the props are aligned. Possibly even retract one by one, as I could see it being tricky to have all 8 props aligned at the same moment if all 8 booms folded at the same time. Maybe even two little pushbuttons on the model surface: "Retract slow", and "Stop retract and move back the other way" to help with the prep (I have a chart reorder project, with a stepper motor that drives the paper. I am so glad I added the capability to press a button to make the thing back itself up when the paper drive is jammed and I need to undo it). Or perhaps a low-tech solution, small rubber bands to hold the props aligned properly for folding, then remove or cut away the bands after folding for flight.

Actually, I wonder if you really need 8 retract servos. Lots of people fly rockets using helicopter recovery (autorotation), where suitably strong rubber bands pull the blades out once the blades are released for deployment (most use a burning thread for release. you could use one servo to trigger a latch to let go of al the blades). A more out of the box method would be to use a continuous rotation servo with a spool on it acting like a winch drum, to pull 8 kevlar cords. Those cords would go from the bottom up near the nose cone, and exit the cone thru 8 holes, with tiny pulleys (or perhaps simply rounded grommets if there would not be much friction), so the cords could pull the booms up and out. However, there would be a need to add some little standoffs near the hingeline, to help give the pull cord some leverage to begin the early deployment.

Here are links for one of my helicopter recovery designs, on two pages. you can see how it uses rubber bands, and the standoff that is needed for leverage:

https://georgesrockets.com/GRP/CONTEST/Plans-C/Copter/Rotaroc_13mm_1.gif

https://georgesrockets.com/GRP/CONTEST/Plans-C/Copter/Rotaroc_13mm_2.gif

And a page I put together showing how to build it:

https://georgesrockets.com/GRP/CONTEST/Plans-C/Copter/CopterPlan/Rotaroc-A.html

Your model is totally unique. But they do share the same basic problem of how to get long objects to deploy and lock out. Although for one this big, perhaps the retracts are best. But if you did a smaller one, you could consider doing a lighter way to get them deployed.

Looking at the cross section drawing of all 8 motors folded for launch, I wonder if you have figured out a way to keep props from accidentally rotating a few degrees and then the outer part of the prop blades getting hung with the vertical structural beams of the rocket? Maybe simply some little 1/64" ply fences glued to the beams, near the prop tip areas, so the prop tips could not rotate enough to get hung. I wonder about this since during the rocket boost, any yaw of the rocket at all (and all fin-stabilized rockets do yaw, it's a matter of how much) can produce an airflow vector to the side that could cause some of the props to want to rotate. Or even just vibration. So, one of those "If it can fail, it probably will" kind of things you may need to look at if you have not already addressed it.

I would be afraid to use rubber bands because of the weight if this model. That is a pretty cool rocket you have in your links there.

My main problem with doing anything smaller is the motor size. When you go smaller in motor size, the length of the motor does not really change much. Even my little 18g quad copter has motors that are a little less that half the length of these and that thing is tiny(fits in the palm of your hand). The motors that were short where really fat and gave me the same issue of fitting in a smaller body. I am already going to have to modify the shafts on the motors that I am using to make them shorter.

The only problem I see with pulling them all up with cords is I would still have to have strong hinges and the servo might have to be pretty strong to pull them all up. I was first thinking of something like that before I came across the retracts. I was thinking something like how an umbrella works though and pulling strings up through the middle.



- George Gassaway
 
Last edited:
Here is the video of the first flight of my test quad. I'll be using this quad to test a few things.
My daughter tried to keep up with it as good as she could.
I really was not trying to land like an airplane :kill: lol.

[video=youtube;W5x_7_wuIVE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5x_7_wuIVE[/video]
 
I have made some progress. I cut some of my centering rings and test fit the retracts.

2a_zps08e9345a.jpg


3a_zps9595fc73.jpg


4a_zps8e8cfae8.jpg


5a_zps5ef667b0.jpg


20140204_162016_zps2f7c864d.jpg


I meant to weigh without the retract. It would be 50g
20140204_170235_zps97efe0e1.jpg


20140204_170342_zps72a324a4.jpg


20140204_174143_zps5dee6d89.jpg


20140204_181423_zpsf89df890.jpg


Testing with Arduino
20140204_193556_zpsc5413fa0.jpg


Inside a retract
20140204_180627_zps547d2c78.jpg
 
Retracts in action:

[video=youtube;RoVIQ2ptzTQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoVIQ2ptzTQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
If you don't mind me asking, where do you plan on launching this glorious rocktocopter? Also, great job on drilling all those holes!
 
If you don't mind me asking, where do you plan on launching this glorious rocktocopter? Also, great job on drilling all those holes!

It will probably be at the Manchester TN field.

Thanks!
 
I added a video to the first post. I will update it as I get parts of it done.



I put some square tubes(not the ones that will be the booms) to see what it looks like:

[video=youtube;9kxuq4YReJA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kxuq4YReJA[/video]
 
Last edited:
I added a video to the first post. I will update it as I get parts of it done.

I put some square tubes(not the ones that will be the booms) to see what it looks like:]

Okay, now that's cool all by itself!
 
This projects looks awesome. I really like those retract brackets. Too bad they're out of stock right now.
 
Sorry for no updates in a while. This project came to a major halt. I was diagnosed with stage 3 cancer in Dec 2014 and then Stage 4 cancer in January. As of Feb 2015 I am cancer free and remain so. I was 34 years old at diagnosis. My health took a major turn a few weeks before labor day last year. It took until Dec to get it figured out. I have been through a few major surgeries. I did 2 rounds of chemo which had to be stopped because it almost gave me a heart attach. I started alternative treatments as soon as I was diagnosed and so far so good.

I do still plan on working on this project.
 
Seriously... no apologies allowed (meaning totally unnecessary) for people fighting cancer! Don't know what kind of cancer you were diagnosed with, but Stage 4 anything is serious stuff. Glad you are cancer free.

Hadn't seen this before. Super cool project. Hope working on it gives you great satisfaction. Would love to see it in action.
 
Last edited:
Really like your project but get well first. My prayers are with you.
 
As already been said no apology needed. Your here, fighting and picking up form where it all way. Fair play for sticking it. Not sure I could.

Your project has gotten me looking into something smaller and similar.

Gonna make a brew and read every post you've put within in this topic to understand it fully
 
Why not have it land upside down?

Have the rotors up front and have them fold down.

Lots of advantages including.
1) Keeps the CG forward during flight (mass moves backwards not forwards when deployed
2) Fins help stability during all phases of flight
3)autogyro effect at higher speeds
4) makes the nose a 'crush zone' if you come in hard (hey that could happen)
5) deployment of the rotors can be done with a simple 'mouse trap spring and pyro release device (really easy to do) - simple and light weight.
6) the 'landing gear' can be made from arrow shafts at the nose. The profile is small and the stiffness is high just let them point forward during launch

just thinking...

Mike K
 
Back
Top