Project - Vertical Land 5.38" Rocket/Octocopter

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brandonppr

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EDIT:
I am going to make videos that show the progress
Part 1:
[video=youtube;LEdmbrO1pCI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEdmbrO1pCI[/video]

END EDIT









I'm going to call this project "Velocity VL1"

I want to land vertically without separation, but I do plan to have a chute to deploy in case of a failure.

For the center section I hope to use 5 carbon fiber tubes for the air frame. These will need to be 26" long.

The plan is to land by a quad-copter that folds out of the center section. This will use 4 electric motors to land the rocket softly.

The motors I have can lift 1000g x 4 with a 10" prop at 100% and if needed I could use 11" prop to get 1490g x 4 and they should fit in the center section. The motors can't run at 100% to be stable though, so I need it to be light.

I'm going to need to keep this as light as possible, but still strong enough to fly. I plan to use an "I" motor to fly.

Here is what I have so far. Not a complete list yet, but this is most of the rocket components.
Any suggestions to get it lighter are appreciated.

3.9in (98mm) LOC Body Tube 298g
plastic nose 200g
wood center rings x2 22.8g 45.6g
wood bulkhead 54.9g
wood bulkhead 54.9g
LOC 54mm mtor tube need 7" 39.5g
15mm carbon tube 26*4 227g
Cesaroni 54mm engine case 58.7g
Cesaroni 54mm closure ?
motor retainer 40.6g
parachute 36" 86g???
landing gear??? 300??


In the pic starting at the top:
nose to contain battery, control board, arduino, altimeter, etc
mid section to contain 4 carbon arms with 4 electric motors with props that fold out from the bottom up. Something will need to release a spring to push them away from the airframe. midsection airframe to be made from 5 carbon tubes one middle and 4 in a square like the number 5 on dice.
lower section to contain 2 charges for parachute in case of failure of the quadcopter, a parachute, and landing gear attached. Landing gear made from carbon tubes.
277cf55f-9e19-4308-935a-887ac3714cff_zps5f8b1dfc.jpg
 
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To get the mass of the motor, just look up the burnout mass on Thrustcurve.org or pro38.com. The I445 Vmax (which I presume you'll be using) weighs 333 grams at burnout.

You probably don't need real landing gear; fins would do just fine. Of course, you may want to extend the trailing edges outward with carbon rods.

You're not gonna get much lighter than LOC tubes unless you build a truss frame out of balsa wood, which might be worth considering.
 
To get the mass of the motor, just look up the burnout mass on Thrustcurve.org or pro38.com. The I445 Vmax (which I presume you'll be using) weighs 333 grams at burnout.

You probably don't need real landing gear; fins would do just fine. Of course, you may want to extend the trailing edges outward with carbon rods.

You're not gonna get much lighter than LOC tubes unless you build a truss frame out of balsa wood, which might be worth considering.

Thanks for the tips.

I like the idea to just extend the trailing edge of the fins.

I'll do a search for the truss frame.
 
I am going to put this quadcopter together and test it with different payloads using these motors. I plan on the rocket landing to be automated, but I am going to need to test with a radio.
 
I take it you plan to deploy the rotors at apogee to avoid high loads.
If so.....isn't there some FAA reg that you are not supposed to fly RC models (or the dreaded, evil drones) over 400 feet high?

M
 
I take it you plan to deploy the rotors at apogee to avoid high loads.
If so.....isn't there some FAA reg that you are not supposed to fly RC models (or the dreaded, evil drones) over 400 feet high?

M

I do recall that... one way to deal with it is to keep the apogee under 400 feet (not that hard, what with the weight and the small motor).
 
I take it you plan to deploy the rotors at apogee to avoid high loads.
If so.....isn't there some FAA reg that you are not supposed to fly RC models (or the dreaded, evil drones) over 400 feet high?

M

I am still unclear on this. I am still searching for a clear answer for this. I'm not sure if that is just near an airport, only under autopilot, or only without a waiver.
Either way like CarVac said, it could be kept under if needed.

Wow! :pop: you have got my attention sir! Very impressive project! Best of luck to you!!!

Thanks
 
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A quadcopter is likely not designed to spin up and stabilize when already gyrating in the air. That may pose problems. Then, if it fails to work, deploying a chute next to a spinning unstable quadcopter may be problematic.

The system may really qualify as guidance for a rocket if it works. I really don't know what category this ends up in.

Gerald
 
A quadcopter is likely not designed to spin up and stabilize when already gyrating in the air. That may pose problems. Then, if it fails to work, deploying a chute next to a spinning unstable quadcopter may be problematic.

The system may really qualify as guidance for a rocket if it works. I really don't know what category this ends up in.

Gerald

It will stabilize if in stability mode. You can throw them in the air and they will stabilize on there own.

If deployment of the parachute is necisary, the motor power can be cut beforehand with the Arduino programming.
Also they should be far enough away from each other that the blade would have stopped spinning at that point.

I don't think it would be guidance if it is not under rocket power. I think it would be similar to a rocket boosted rc glider, but a helicopter instead.
 
Seems to me you could just test the theory with a quad mech retrofitted to a saucer....
 
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/1acfc3f689769a56862569e70077c9cc/$FILE/ATTBJMAC/ac91-57.pdf

"Do not fly model aircraft higher than 400 feet above the surface.
When flying aircraft within 3 miles of an airport, notify the airport operator,
or when an air traffic facility is located at the airport, notify the control
tower, or flight service station."

I am still not convinced that this is the rule.
FAA has different sets of rules depending on whether you are flying outside of club rules. Such as us flying under NAR rules. We can do things that we can not do without NAR unless we had special permissions. AMA is one of those clubs. As long as you fly within there rules you are OK. If you do not fly under there rules, you must abide by the stricter FAA rules.

What I am unclear on is this rule:  Rocket motors (using solid propellant) up to a G-series size may be used provided they remain attached to the model during flight. Model rockets may
be flown in accordance with the National Model Rocketry Safety Code but may not be launched from model aircraft.


I don't know if they are saying up to a G motor or up to a G motor except if flown in accordance with NAR. I am assuming that it is that you can fly over a G if you have a NAR L1, but they can't give approval themselves for anything above a G.

Also. FAA does not state that it has to be AMA that you fly under. I think if you do not violate NAR safety code that it could also fall under NAR rules.

Here are the NAR rules:

https://www.nar.org/NARrcrbgsc.html

The following code is to be used in conjunction with the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code and High Power Rocket Safety Code. In areas where the R/C RBG code overlaps these other codes, the R/C RBG code takes precedence.

Definition. A Radio-Controlled (R/C) Rocket Boosted Glider (RBG) is defined as a rocket boosted model capable of gliding flight and equipped with a radio control system capable of controlling the direction of flight during glide and, optionally, boost.
Radio Control. I will use only approved radio equipment operating on frequencies allocated for use in flying models. I will check the radio and reception range of any new model, repaired model, or any new combination of model and radio system. I will only fly if the radio system is operating properly and there is no interference. I will ensure that a frequency control method is being used at the flying site, then check I am transmitting on an unused frequency.
Flightworthiness. I will check that the model is in safe and controllable condition for glide as well as in proper trim for rocket boost before each flight. I will not fly in the presence of spectators until I can safely boost, fly, and land models of the type I am flying.
Motor Thrust. My R/C RBG will weight no more than the motor manufacturer's recommended maximum lift-off weight for the motors when used in R/C RBGs.
Launch Angle. An R/C RBG may be launched at angles of 30 to 45 degrees from vertical provided that it is capable of having its flight path controlled safely during rocket boost and provided that the launcher is pointed away from specified spectator areas. Otherwise the R/C RBG may not be launched at an angle exceeding 30 degrees from vertical.
Air-starts. During stable, gliding flight of the R/C RBG, an attached motor may be air-started to increase the model's altitude or airspeed without diving. This is permitted if:


The onboard R/C ignition system is designed to not to be triggered accidentally, possesses an arm/disarm system, and is not armed until the model is on the pad with the radio system turned on and verified.
The proposed airstart was reviewed and approved by the Range Safety Officer (if present) prior to launch.
The model heading is not toward spectators.
The model is at least 100 feet above the launch site.
The pilot gives a loud countdown for the air-start.
If the model descends below the minimum altitude for air-starts or the air-start fails, the model will be landed in a safe area, clear of people, and only the pilot or pilot's appointed helper will be allowed to approach the model until the ignition system has been disarmed.

Launch. The pilot will verify the glider's radio system and transmitter are turned on, in the desired configuration, and working prior to signaling the Launch Control Officer (LCO) the model is ready for launch. The LCO will coordinate with the pilot when to launch the model, remaining alert to possible calls from the pilot for the count to be stopped. Pilots may launch their models with their own launch controller if the LCO agrees. In the event of an apparent misfire, the pilot should remain ready to control the model until the ignition system has been disabled.








Here are the AMA rules effective Jan 2014:
Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code
Effective January 1, 2014 :

https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.pdf

A. GENERAL: A model aircraft is a non-human-carrying aircraft capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere. It may not exceed limitations of this code and is
intended exclusively for sport, recreation, education and/or competition. All model flights must be conducted in accordance with this safety code and any
additional rules specific to the flying site.
1. Model aircraft will not be flown:
(a) In a careless or reckless manner.
(b) At a location where model aircraft activities are prohibited.
2. Model aircraft pilots will:
(a) Yield the right of way to all human-carrying aircraft.
(b) See and avoid all aircraft and a spotter must be used when appropriate. (AMA Document #540-D.)
(c) Not fly higher than approximately 400 feet above ground level within three (3) miles of an airport without notifying the airport operator.
(d) Not interfere with operations and traffic patterns at any airport, heliport or seaplane base except where there is a mixed use agreement.
(e) Not exceed a takeoff weight, including fuel, of 55 pounds unless in compliance with the AMA Large Model Airplane program. (AMA Document 520-A.)
(f) Ensure the aircraft is identified with the name and address or AMA number of the owner on the inside or affixed to the outside of the model aircraft. (This
does not apply to model aircraft flown indoors.)
(g) Not operate aircraft with metal-blade propellers or with gaseous boosts except for helicopters operated under the provisions of AMA Document #555.
(h) Not operate model aircraft while under the influence of alcohol or while using any drug that could adversely affect the pilot’s ability to safely control the
model.
(i) Not operate model aircraft carrying pyrotechnic devices that explode or burn, or any device which propels a projectile or drops any object that creates a
hazard to persons or property.
Exceptions:
 Free Flight fuses or devices that burn producing smoke and are securely attached to the model aircraft during flight.
 Rocket motors (using solid propellant) up to a G-series size may be used provided they remain attached to the model during flight. Model rockets may
be flown in accordance with the National Model Rocketry Safety Code but may not be launched from model aircraft.

 Officially designated AMA Air Show Teams (AST) are authorized to use devices and practices as defined within the Team AMA Program Document.
(AMA Document #718.)
(j) Not operate a turbine-powered aircraft, unless in compliance with the AMA turbine regulations. (AMA Document #510-A.)
3. Model aircraft will not be flown in AMA sanctioned events, air shows or model demonstrations unless:
(a) The aircraft, control system and pilot skills have successfully demonstrated all maneuvers intended or anticipated prior to the specific event.
(b) An inexperienced pilot is assisted by an experienced pilot.
4. When and where required by rule, helmets must be properly worn and fastened. They must be OSHA, DOT, ANSI, SNELL or NOCSAE approved or comply
with comparable standards.
B. RADIO CONTROL (RC)
1. All pilots shall avoid flying directly over unprotected people, vessels, vehicles or structures and shall avoid endangerment of life and property of others.
2. A successful radio equipment ground-range check in accordance with manufacturer’s recommendations will be completed before the first flight of a new or
repaired model aircraft.
3. At all flying sites a safety line(s) must be established in front of which all flying takes place. (AMA Document #706.)
(a) Only personnel associated with flying the model aircraft are allowed at or in front of the safety line.
(b) At air shows or demonstrations, a straight safety line must be established.
(c) An area away from the safety line must be maintained for spectators.
(d) Intentional flying behind the safety line is prohibited.
4. RC model aircraft must use the radio-control frequencies currently allowed by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Only individuals properly
licensed by the FCC are authorized to operate equipment on Amateur Band frequencies.
5. RC model aircraft will not knowingly operate within three (3) miles of any pre-existing flying site without a frequency-management agreement. (AMA
Documents #922 and #923.)
6. With the exception of events flown under official AMA Competition Regulations, excluding takeoff and landing, no powered model may be flown outdoors
closer than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilot's helper(s) located at the flightline.
7. Under no circumstances may a pilot or other person touch an outdoor model aircraft in flight while it is still under power, except to divert it from striking an
individual.
8. RC night flying requires a lighting system providing the pilot with a clear view of the model’s attitude and orientation at all times. Hand-held illumination
systems are inadequate for night flying operations.
9. The pilot of an RC model aircraft shall:
(a) Maintain control during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other than by corrective lenses prescribed for the pilot.
(b) Fly using the assistance of a camera or First-Person View (FPV) only in accordance with the procedures outlined in AMA Document #550.
(c) Fly using the assistance of autopilot or stabilization system only in accordance with the procedures outlined in AMA Document #560.
C. FREE FLIGHT
1. Must be at least 100 feet downwind of spectators and automobile parking when the model aircraft is launched.
2. Launch area must be clear of all individuals except mechanics, officials, and other fliers.
3. An effective device will be used to extinguish any fuse on the model aircraft after the fuse has completed its function.
D. CONTROL LINE
1. The complete control system (including the safety thong where applicable) must have an inspection and pull test prior to flying.
2. The pull test will be in accordance with the current Competition Regulations for the applicable model aircraft category.
3. Model aircraft not fitting a specific category shall use those pull-test requirements as indicated for Control Line Precision Aerobatics.
4. The flying area must be clear of all utility wires or poles and a model aircraft will not be flown closer than 50 feet to any above-ground electric utility lines.
5. The flying area must be clear of all nonessential participants and spectators before the engine is started.
 
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Here are some HPR gliders https://georgesrockets.com/GRP/GLIDERS/BigBirds/HPRgliders.htm
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?41888-Vulcan-L1-cert-glider

After reading this below, I think it will be fine above 400ft as long as it does not violate NAR safety code, in which, I don't believe it does.

Note there there is no altitude limit in the law below only that you can see it in line of sight:


PUBLIC LAW 112–95—FEB. 14, 2012 126 STAT. 11
TITLE III—SAFETY
Subtitle B—Unmanned Aircraft Systems
SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.

(a) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if —
(1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;
(2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set¹ of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization¹;
(3) the aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization¹;
(4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and²
(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).
(b) STATUTORY CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.³

(c) MODEL AIRCRAFT DEFINED.—In this section, the term “model aircraft” means an unmanned aircraft that is—
(1) capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere;
(2) flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and²
(3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes.
 
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So now I guess it is Project - Vertical Land 5.38" Rocket

Okay, I have decided to do a redesign to save weight. I think it is just going to be too heavy with the first design. I decided to change to a 38mm motor and run the motor tube from back to nose and put the chute inside it. Then have 4 outer tubes. I built it in open rocket with almost everything that will be in the rocket including the quad parts needed. Now it comes out at 6.6lbs / 3019g with a full motor. That will put me where I need to be after adding wiring and discharging the motor.

Also, I decided to move up to 5.38" instead of 4", because it was needed to make this design work. I was able to make the rocket shorter as well.

Velocity VL2.0


 
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There are no specific FAA rules on the operational altitude of small R/C aircraft. The generic rule for any licensed or unlicensed use of any air vehicle is the airspace is shared, so your operation shall not interfere with, or endanger, the operation of other air vehicles in the same airspace. The FAA advisory from 1981 that M Clark referenced recommended voluntary compliance to the AMA's code requirement for a 400' maximum altitude for R/C operations within 3 miles of an airport.

To a large extent, the R/C and rocketry communities self-regulate, and since there are few problems, the FAA doesn't get overly involved with the small stuff.

On the quadrotor recovery side, you are getting to the point with a 5.5" airframe that the rocket will be to heavy to recover. I doubt you can keep a 5.5" rocket below 3 kg which is about where it needs to be to have the system work. The CG for the rocket flight should be forward, but aft for the recovery phase. I think you will be challenged to get it to function well as a rocket with the hinge forward. We designed a quadrotor that could be launched from 40 mm grenade launcher but it proved not to be feasible for the desired reconnaissance mission since a straightforward hand launched quadrotor can get to altitude just as fast as a rocket deployed system which has a loud acoustic signature.

90% of the current military airdrops utilize GPS guided steerable parachutes to make precision landing for remote base resupply drops. This is most likely a less complicated more reliable method.

Bob
 
There are no specific FAA rules on the operational altitude of small R/C aircraft. The generic rule for any licensed or unlicensed use of any air vehicle is the airspace is shared, so your operation shall not interfere with, or endanger, the operation of other air vehicles in the same airspace. The FAA advisory from 1981 that M Clark referenced recommended voluntary compliance to the AMA's code requirement for a 400' maximum altitude for R/C operations within 3 miles of an airport.

To a large extent, the R/C and rocketry communities self-regulate, and since there are few problems, the FAA doesn't get overly involved with the small stuff.

On the quadrotor recovery side, you are getting to the point with a 5.5" airframe that the rocket will be to heavy to recover. I doubt you can keep a 5.5" rocket below 3 kg which is about where it needs to be to have the system work. The CG for the rocket flight should be forward, but aft for the recovery phase. I think you will be challenged to get it to function well as a rocket with the hinge forward. We designed a quadrotor that could be launched from 40 mm grenade launcher but it proved not to be feasible for the desired reconnaissance mission since a straightforward hand launched quadrotor can get to altitude just as fast as a rocket deployed system which has a loud acoustic signature.

90% of the current military airdrops utilize GPS guided steerable parachutes to make precision landing for remote base resupply drops. This is most likely a less complicated more reliable method.

Bob

The reason I decided to go with 5.38" was to lower the weight by making it shorter. I have pretty much everything added in the sim and I am at 2600g (counting burnout of motor) right now. I think there could be ways to save weight with what I have to get it below 2600g total(after motor burn). I have the CG foward right now. Once the rotor arms are deployed, the weight should be where it needs to be for the quad to fly as well. The batteries and electronics will sit directly on top of the location of the arms.
 
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Here is what I have for weights so far as far as the rocket part is concerned:

I think these parts are about as light as they can be unless you have any suggestions for something lighter.
5.38tube 5" long 93.35g

38mm tube 25" 86.75g

38mm coupler 9.3g

innter tube 38mm 1.9" 6.593g

18mm tube 108" 209g

4 18mm couplers 0.28g

parachute 36" 86g???



I think these parts could be lighter and could save me a lot of weight

Any recommendations on a lighter materiel.

all of these parts are from apogee besides fins.

Nose 5.38" 360g

38mm to 5.38 center ring 55.7g

38mm to 5.38 center ring 55.7g

38mm to 5.38 center ring 55.7g

5.38 bulkhead 83.1g

54 to 38 center ring 3.8g

54 to 38 center ring 3.8g

38mm to 5.38 center ring 55.7g

plywood fins 1/8" 67g

motor retainer 40.6g https://www.apogeerockets.com/index...supplies_info&cPath=42_53_229&products_id=135
 
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Does this need to be light enough to hover, or just light enough that the quad-copter can stabilize it enough to land upright?
 
Does this need to be light enough to hover, or just light enough that the quad-copter can stabilize it enough to land upright?

It should be able to fly normal. I want it to land in the spot I tell it to. It needs to be 80% or below full thrust to be able to fly normal.

Here is the calculator for the quad part. Hit the calculate button and it will show everything. It can fly 1.3 minutes or hover 2.6 minutes. That should be plenty of time to bring it down and land it where I want it. This could be increased with a larger battery.
https://www.ecalc.ch/xcoptercalc.ht...r=apc_slowfly_sf&diameter=12&pitch=6&blades=2
 
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Here is a rough outline of what I want my code to do. I want the arms to deploy before apogee so that it is not falling before the motors start. That way it has a chance to stabilize while it is still pointing somewhat upward.
Anyway this is what I had in mind:


If mph is >30 and then is <5mph(only do this once)
------Deploy quadcopter arms
------Apply x% throttle for x seconds
------------If all 4 arms do not fully deploy
-----------------Cut power to all motors
-----------------Delay x seconds
-----------------Deploy parachute
------------Else/otherwise
-----------------Fly to predetermined landing spot
-----------------Land
-----------------Cut power to all motors
If mph is >15mph after applying x% throttle for x seconds
------Cut power to all motors
------Delay x seconds
------Deploy parachute
 
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I have made some changes to configuration. I decided to go with 8 rotors instead of 4. I did this so I don't have to worry so much about weight and I will also be able to add some more payload that I want to add. I also decided to have the props face down instead of up. This allowed me to fit all 8 and also allowed me to tuck the props in. I decided to use servoless retracts to open the arms. I still have to test this, but I believe this will work great. right now I am at 3840 grams, but I can now safely lift over 5334g.
Here is the sim data for the new configuration: https://www.ecalc.ch/xcoptercalc.ht...r=apc_slowfly_sf&diameter=11&pitch=6&blades=2

Here is a model with arms retracted and extended. The center of gravity moves to just below the props when arms are extended:


Here is the prop locations on 1" scale:


Here is the retracted motor locations(I found smaller motors with equal power just after making this, so the motors(gold) will be smaller and tucked more:
 
I decided to build a smaller model to test how it flies before moving on to the full size model. OpenROcket says that is stable, but I just want to make sure with the odd shapes, I'm afraid the numbers may be off.

Here is the start of the smaller model:
20140102_222334_zpsfmdwc3yg.jpg
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20140102_224654_zpsn9uvlep5.jpg
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